Marsupials in the United States

I got to side with @TinoPup and @Great Argus on this. Every time I see a scientific name I have to decide if it's worth opening another tab to figure out what is being discussed, or to just move on. I studied Spanish for three years and could never even make a sentence, there's no way I'm going to try learning Latin in my free time:p

Unless of course, you've got a really easy way to learn it;)
 
Scientific names are universal. They are the only definitive name for a species. Common names can be super generic, inadequate, and most importantly vary widely from language to language. Scientific names are crystal clear. Even when genuses change and taxonomy evolved, even outdated scientific names only ever refer to that one taxa. Yes when speaking in informal situations like on this forum it's fine to use common names, but don't say they're better when your own list has one species separated into entirely different species just because each zoo uses a different common name. And you did it multiple times. You say you wish zoos would just stick to one name so that it wouldn't cause confusion? Well guess what, that's what scientific names are for.

~Thylo
 
If you really think common names are easier to follow, I would like to ask you to tell me what Malawi cichlids are kept in US zoos. Spoiler alert: zoos hardly ever specify common names further than that.

~Thylo
 
@ThylacineAlive - I have NEVER met anyone who would refer to, lets say a Sumatran tiger as Panthera tigris sondaica or an okapi as Okapia johnstoni in either a natural or formal conversation, and I doubt I ever will. I would also, tentatively, say I doubt you've ever said that, or any other scientific name besides Orca, although I have obviously never spoken to or met you. Outside of the less than 1% of the population who thoroughly understand scientific names, most people would, believe it or not, think common names make more sense and facilitate conversation easier.

I would like to ask you to tell me what Malawi cichlids are kept in US zoos.
And I'm sorry, but what a completely bizarre and random example to give. Is that the best example you could come up with? That's more of a random bit of trivia than anything else.

Scientific names are universal. They are the only definitive name for a species.
On an somewhat unrelated note, it seems to be accepted that there are very few pure bred tigers, for example. What happens to the scientific names then? Do we just make up new ones? I have wondered about it for a while and it seems like a good time to ask.
 
In addition to what Great Argus said, scientific names are changing rather frequently, as well, even for larger mammals. One of the jackals (black-backed?) is moving to a new genus. The discoveries of there being more than one giraffe and african elephant created new names. A lot of hoofstock names vary, since we can't agree on species. And that's just mammals... birds, reptiles, etc constantly get changed and moved around. I was trying to look up the name of a lizard I saw at a zoo last year and along with several normal (regular? english? what's the word I'm looking for?) names, I found three different latin names, with no general timeline indicating which is the most proper.

It’s hardly that much of a problem. People recognize that taxonomy is a changing science. Even when species are moved to a new genus, people will know what is meant by their old names. Every “new” giraffe was already recognized at subspecies level: in fact, during the elevation of some of them to species level, we actually lost two taxa, making it simpler. For groups of animals which are highly debated, just pick a taxonomy to follow and go with it. Scientific debates will follow. Everyone leaves smarter ;)

I got to side with @TinoPup and @Great Argus on this. Every time I see a scientific name I have to decide if it's worth opening another tab to figure out what is being discussed, or to just move on. I studied Spanish for three years and could never even make a sentence, there's no way I'm going to try learning Latin in my free time:p

Unless of course, you've got a really easy way to learn it;)

Scientific names are universal. They are the only definitive name for a species. Common names can be super generic, inadequate, and most importantly vary widely from language to language. Scientific names are crystal clear. Even when genuses change and taxonomy evolved, even outdated scientific names only ever refer to that one taxa. Yes when speaking in informal situations like on this forum it's fine to use common names, but don't say they're better when your own list has one species separated into entirely different species just because each zoo uses a different common name. And you did it multiple times. You say you wish zoos would just stick to one name so that it wouldn't cause confusion? Well guess what, that's what scientific names are for.

~Thylo

It is true that many of the scientific names tend to change, as @TinoPup notes, and species limits can be debated. The taxonomic lineup tends to shift with some frequency too. Knowing which species name is still in use can sometimes be hard to find. @jayjds2 does make a fair point that it is known taxonomy is constantly changing, and tends to provoke debate. I do agree that everyone usually turns out wiser. @BigNate brings up a good point that many people don't know the Latin (and sometimes Greek) used to create the scientific names. I don't doubt most of us have looked up a few scientific names that we didn't recognize in our time. However, the scientific names are universal and specific, as @ThylacineAlive mentions, and anyone across the world will know what species you are referring to.

I think we can all agree that while the changing taxonomy can be a little challenging, it is still the best way to confirm a species. Though for most of us, the common name tends to be the easier way to communicate the species in question. However, although this is an interesting discussion, it is not the point of this thread, Marsupials in the United States. If someone wants to continue the debate, please find a thread already dealing with the topic or create a new one on the subject.

If you really think common names are easier to follow, I would like to ask you to tell me what Malawi cichlids are kept in US zoos. Spoiler alert: zoos hardly ever specify common names further than that.

~Thylo

Too true Thylo. Though I don't think a good number of them even have common names, let alone the average zoo-goer being able to separate many of the various forms of the different species.
 
Every time I see a scientific name I have to decide if it's worth opening another tab to figure out what is being discussed, or to just move on.

For me is just the contrary. Many times that I read a common name here in ZooChat I have to open a new tab for see what's the name of the animal, what kind of animal is it. Except for the very tiny percentage of animals that are widely known by the common name (such as big and medium-sized mammals and most birds), for 99% of the known animals of the world (including almost all insects, mites, molluscs, segmented worms and other big taxa), use a common name is a stupid nightmare nonsense.

And by the way, why do you consider the Malawi cichlids as a bizarre example? I think that this is much more bizarre:
@ThylacineAlive - I have NEVER met anyone who would refer to, lets say a Sumatran tiger as Panthera tigris sondaica
Given the fact that is not even a species... it's something so little important as a subspecies. I wonder if the subspecies of the beetle Acmaeodera crinita maroccana should deserve an specific common name different to the Acmaeodera crinita crinita (of course neither had ever a common name in any language).
 
For groups of animals which are highly debated, just pick a taxonomy to follow and go with it.

That's a very important point :-) I always have to choose a taxonomy school for the thousands of changing taxa. Usually I choose the most classical used and tend more to lump than split (but I analize case by case). For example, the lizard that TinoPup mentioned maybe the skink Lygosoma fernandi/Mochlus fernandi/Riopa fernandi. I choosed the first one for my files and use :-)
 
On an somewhat unrelated note, it seems to be accepted that there are very few pure bred tigers, for example. What happens to the scientific names then? Do we just make up new ones? I have wondered about it for a while and it seems like a good time to ask.

When an hybrid between two taxa exist, it must be designated with a cross. At first is just a cross between the names of the two parents, for example Panthera tigris altaica x sumatrae would be the scientific name of an hybrid between the Sumatran and Siberian tigers, or Panthera leo x tigris the scientific name of the liger. If the hybrid taxon is officially described, it may receive a new name, always conservating the cross, but changing the specific epithet, for example, the hybrid between the trees Platanus orientalis and Platanus occidentalis is called Platanus x hispanica, or the hybrid between Laburnum and Cytisus have the new name x Laburnocytisus. When three or more taxa are involved in the hybridation it lose the scientific epithet and must be called with a non-latinized artificial name, as happens for example in the artificial roses and zillion other garden plants. Anyway I think that rarely a so unimportant thing as a subspecies hybrid receive a new scientific name, tough maybe there are some cases. The species will continue being the Tiger, Panthera tigris, either purebred or hybrid, and the species is the important concept and the basic unity of taxonomy. I don't think that the Archaeopsylla erinacei erinacei x maura (a subspecific hybrid flea discovered near my zone) will receive a new specific epithet.
 
@ThylacineAlive - I have NEVER met anyone who would refer to, lets say a Sumatran tiger as Panthera tigris sondaica or an okapi as Okapia johnstoni in either a natural or formal conversation, and I doubt I ever will. I would also, tentatively, say I doubt you've ever said that, or any other scientific name besides Orca, although I have obviously never spoken to or met you. Outside of the less than 1% of the population who thoroughly understand scientific names, most people would, believe it or not, think common names make more sense and facilitate conversation easier.


And I'm sorry, but what a completely bizarre and random example to give. Is that the best example you could come up with? That's more of a random bit of trivia than anything else.


On an somewhat unrelated note, it seems to be accepted that there are very few pure bred tigers, for example. What happens to the scientific names then? Do we just make up new ones? I have wondered about it for a while and it seems like a good time to ask.

As I said in my post, yes common names are often much easier to use when speaking informally. However, I have met several people who do refer to a lot of species by their scientific names, and do you really think the zoo world sticks to common names behind the scenes and in their records? The argument of saying scientific names change so they're useless compared to common names is beyond invalid as, like I said, even old and unused scientific names still refer to the one taxa, whereas common names can refer to any number of taxa or make one species seem like several (as the list @TinoPup posted proves). Panthera uncia, Uncia uncia, Felis uncia, Uncia irbis, and Felis irbis can all very easily be traced back to the Snow Leopard, but if I asked you to tell me what cat species 'Ounce' was, could you do it? Additionally, common names change wildly and without reason all the time. When a scientific name gets changed, most if not all of the time there needs to be an official report published explaining the reasoning why. Common names? I've seen zoo PR departments just make up brand new common names for well-known species for seemingly no reason. Example: What's a Patagonian Tapir? Oh, it's Tapirus terrestris, more commonly known as the Brazilian Tapir, South American Tapir, Lowland Tapir, Anta, and Flachlandtapir among others. I guess those were all be listed separately if this were an ungulates in the US thread? And don't say it's unfair to put the common names used in other languages because that is exactly the point, especially when those do not translate back into the other common names I used. But you know what is the exact same name in every scenario and in every language? That's right, the scientific name! And besides, sometimes common names change when the scientific name does because the old common name no longer fits, such as when Starnoenas cyanocephala was discovered to be more like Australian pigeons than New World quail-doves, and as such the common name was changed from Blue-Headed Quail-Dove to Blue-Headed Partridge-Dove. Not a huge change, no, but it'd certainly strike many people as two completely different species should they have just seen the names and not known anything about them.

I do not fully understand scientific names, or do I use them in general conversation all that often, but if someone told me their local zoo just received 'Negros Water Monitors', I would need the scientific name to know they were referring to Varanus nuchalis.

Also there are a lot more species whose common name is their scientific name, you just probably don't realize it. Every Dinosaur for example, as well as Boa constrictor (often referred to Common Boa, and several others depending on subspecies/population), and Lynx, Planigale, Liocichla, etc. If common names are easier than you should know exactly what those animals are as they're the same as the scientific name.

How is that a completely bizarre and random example to give? Are Malawi cichlids not important enough to be spoken about with clarity? How about Lake Victoria cichlids, many of which are on the brink of extinction? Zoos use the common name 'Lake Victoria Cichlid' when exhibiting these species, though collectively they're referring to at least a dozen species kept and bred. If you want a more "relevant" example, tell me what zoos mean when they say they keep 'Blue-Crowned Motmot' because that common name refers to seven species.

Subspecies hybrid tigers are just Panthera tigris. As Kakapo pointed out, a tigerXLion hybrid would be P. tigrisXleo or P. leoXtigris depending on whether the father was a tiger or a Lion. Speaking of tigers and the Sumatran animals, though, this is a perfect example of why your taxonomy changing argument holds no water. The vast majority of the time nowadays, a taxonomy change occurs when one species is split into more species. However, this doesn't cause as much confusion as you seem to think as it doesn't really change that much. Traditionally the tigers of Sumatra have long been considered Panthera tigris sumatrae. If one follows the thinking that the island tigers are actually a separate species, then these become either P. sumatrae or P. sondaica sumatrae. If one follows the new subspecies revision, then these become P. tigris sondaica. Whichever way you write it, most of us still know you mean the tigers of Sumatra. Yes more people will understand what you mean when if you call them 'Sumatran Tigers', but under this new taxonomic revision that's not technically the correct common name for them anyway. So if I'm talking to you about 'Sunda Tigers', would know what I meant? Would you be able to tell if I were talking about the animals from Sumatra, Java, or Bali? Even if you have to do a quick Google for the scientific name, Googling any one of the scientific names I provided to bring you to the Sumatran cat, whereas Googling 'Sunda Tiger' would not. This fact extends to every other example I've provided.

~Thylo
 
Going back to marsupials, San Diego Zoo and Busch Gardens Tampa keep New Guinea Ground Cuscus, Phalanger gymnotis, and Wildlife World Zoo keeps both Swamp/Black/Black-Tailed/Fern Wallaby/Black Pademelon/Stinker/Black Stinker, Wallabia bicolor, and Agile/Sandy Wallaby, Notamacropus agilis.

EDIT: San Diego still keeps Goodfellow's/Buerger's/Shawmayer's/Ornate Tree-Kangaroo, Dendrolagus goodfellowi buergersi, behind the scenes.

EDIT (again): San Diego Zoo has Common Ringtail Possum, Pseudocheirus peregrinus peregrinus, behind the scenes.

~Thylo
 
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Yes, pardon my typo. I saw in in 2017 but I know it was present before that. There are two species of cuscus which have been imported privately (one of which has bred) but no zoos have acquired any yet.

Sorry to ask again, don't want to forgot/have this point lost in the common vs scientific name debate haha... any more information on the exact location of these cuscus species? I'd be very interested in photographing them if possible!
 
Unless of course, you've got a really easy way to learn it;)

Yes. Use it. :p

Doesn't matter if it's making lists, labelling photos, whatever - use the names alongside their common names and you'll pick a lot of them up in no time. You don't have to 'learn Latin' (it's not Latin, it's a name, often in a Latinized form - if you can learn, say, characters from a book, TV or film series you can probably learn scientific names) - though I find knowing what the names mean does help them stick.

Anyone who's ever been to a zoo or read a field guide in a country where their native language is not spoken will know the value of scientific names! Even a zoo sign with no image and in a language you don't speak a word of can be helpful if it has a scientific name (this was handy to me recently in Ljubljana's reptile house..!).

And for almost anything outside mammals and birds (and for some groups within those!) they're essential if you're going to know what you're talking about.
 
Sorry to ask again, don't want to forgot/have this point lost in the common vs scientific name debate haha... any more information on the exact location of these cuscus species? I'd be very interested in photographing them if possible!

While the scientific vs common name debate is interesting, can we please return to the original purpose of the thread?
 
Scientific names are universal. They are the only definitive name for a species. Common names can be super generic, inadequate, and most importantly vary widely from language to language. Scientific names are crystal clear. Even when genuses change and taxonomy evolved, even outdated scientific names only ever refer to that one taxa. Yes when speaking in informal situations like on this forum it's fine to use common names, but don't say they're better when your own list has one species separated into entirely different species just because each zoo uses a different common name. And you did it multiple times. You say you wish zoos would just stick to one name so that it wouldn't cause confusion? Well guess what, that's what scientific names are for.

~Thylo

Wow. Was the rudeness in this and your follow up really necessary? Please, stop putting words in my mouth. I never once said scientific names are "useless" or any of the other things you've attributed to me. I said they can be as difficult as common names. It takes a couple of seconds to google and see what names a species goes by. By all means, take the time to put together your own database using just scientific names instead, very few zoos use them. I guess I'll stop trying to be helpful since it's clearly not wanted.
 
Wow. Was the rudeness in this and your follow up really necessary? Please, stop putting words in my mouth. I never once said scientific names are "useless" or any of the other things you've attributed to me. I said they can be as difficult as common names. It takes a couple of seconds to google and see what names a species goes by. By all means, take the time to put together your own database using just scientific names instead, very few zoos use them. I guess I'll stop trying to be helpful since it's clearly not wanted.

I wasn't trying to be rude, I was trying to prove a point and back it up with examples. Nor were any of my posts directly at you, they were meant for everyone. Having reread the thread, I see it was Great Argus who made the comment about how it'd be easier if every zoo used one common name so I do apologize for attributing that to you but my point remains. I never said you called scientific names useless.

And for the record, all zoos use scientific names.

I'm not trying to deter you from building your list, I'd love for there to be a database of species kept in US zoos. I think many of us long for a US-version of zootierliste. This is constructive criticism. I'm trying to educate and share my opinion, as others did for me, and as you will certainly do for others. Scientific names are the standard, and whether you choose to follow them or not, that will always be the case.

~Thylo
 
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While the scientific vs common name debate is interesting, can we please return to the original purpose of the thread?

To the best of my knowledge, the following species are kept in US zoos:

Didelphimorphia
Bare-Tailed Woolly Opossum Caluromys philander
Yapok Chironectes minimus (maybe only privately, sometimes they pop up at DWA)
White-Eared Opossum Didelphis albiventris (maybe only privately)
Common Opossum Didelphis marsupialis (whatever the Mexican subspecies is; Smithsonian National Zoo)
Virginia Opossum Didelphis virginiana (various subspecies and probably subspecific hybrids)
Grey Four-Eyed Opossum Philander opossum (maybe only privately)
Brazilian Short-Tailed Opossum Monodelphis domestica

Dasyuromorphia
Tasmanian Devil Sarcophilus harrisii

Diprotodontia
Koala Phascolarctos cinereus (I think all subspecies adustus)
Common Wombat Vombatus ursinus (all hirsutus except for Albuquerque BioPark which has tasmaniensis)
Southern Hairy-Nosed Wombat Lasiorhinus latifrons
Sulawesi Bear Cuscus Ailurops ursinus (Memphis Zoo)
New Guinea Ground Cuscus Phalanger gymnotis (I think leucippus; San Diego Zoo and Busch Gardens Tampa)
Northern Common Cuscus Phalanger orientalis (only privately but I've seen them advertised for potential sale to zoological collections)
Ornate Cuscus Phalanger ornatus (only privately)
Common Ringtail Possum Pseudocheirus peregrinus (nominate subspecies; San Diego Zoo)
Striped Possum Dactylopsila trivirgata (I think, I know Philadelphia Zoo had them until the nocturnal wing closed a few years ago)
Sugar Glider Petaurus breviceps (nominate at San Diego Zoo Safari Park, don't know of any others listed to subspecies status)
Feathertail Glider Acrobates pygmaeus
Brush-Tailed Bettong Bettongia penicillata (ogilbyi)
Long-Nosed Potoroo Potorous tridactylus (Gladys Porter Zoo)
Matschie's Tree-Kangaroo Dendrolagus matschiei
Goodfellow's Tree-Kangaroo Dendrolagus goodfellowi (buergersi; San Diego Zoo)
Agile Wallaby Notamacropus agilis (Wildlife World Zoo)
Tammar Wallaby Notamacropus eugenii
Parma Wallaby Notamacropus parma
Red-Necked Wallaby Notamacropus rufogriseus
Common Wallaroo Osphranter robustus (I think nominate)
Red Kangaroo Osphranter rufus
Western Grey Kangaroo Macropus fuliginosus (all subspecies melanops subspecies except for Gladys Porter Zoo which has nominate)
Eastern Grey Kangaroo Macropus giganteus (nominate subspecies)
Yellow-Footed Rock-Wallaby Petrogale xanthopus (nominate subspecies)
Swamp Wallaby Wallabia bicolor

~Thylo
 
Sorry to ask again, don't want to forgot/have this point lost in the common vs scientific name debate haha... any more information on the exact location of these cuscus species? I'd be very interested in photographing them if possible!
I’d have already seen them if I could ;) there’s not much info and only a photo or two around.
 
Yes. Use it. :p

It's no joke how accurate this is! When I first joined this forum, I hated most scientific names because I hardly ever knew what was being discussed when some members would strictly use them. However, over the years I've just become familiar with several of them, some to the point to where I use them over common names on occasion. Even if I can't recite most off-hand, I tend to at least recognize many. Unintentional familiarization is a great tool. Building my lifelists and getting into the habit of writing most reptiles, amphibians, fishes, and invertebrates down under their scientific names in my notes while visiting zoos was extremely helpful here. Even including the scientific name when making a fantasy zoo can help.

~Thylo
 
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