Taxonomy Discussion Thread

[Kakapo]

The Red Wolf has been going back and forth between full species and subspecies for decades. Nowadays I'm not sure of any major source who still refers to it as a subspecies but it's certainly not extremely recently.

The notices about it not being a species but an hybrid origin population started just this year.

And to be fair, I'm pretty sure the African Forest Elephant split is less controversial than the Red Wolf

Wrong. The elephant is certainly more controversial than the wolf as it was considered as a subespecies when I was child. Anyway, and what????

 

[ThylacineAlive]

The notices about it not being a species but an hybrid origin population started just this year.

No.. That's been around for as long as I can remember. Perhaps @michaelarthur can offer more insight into the species taxonomic history?

Wrong. The elephant is certainly more controversial than the wolf as it was considered as a subespecies when I was child. Anyway, and what????

"it was considered as a subspecies when I was a child" ≠ a controversial split in 2018. While the IUCN has been shockingly slow in updating their taxonomy on African elephants, I'm fairly confident that you will find more reliable sources listing Loxodonta cyclotis as a fully accepted species than you will for C. rufus.

~Thylo

 

[Tim May]

The notices about it not being a species but an hybrid origin population started just this year.

No, it must be at least a quarter-of-a-century ago when I attended a Zoological Society of London Scientific Meeting at which one of the speakers claimed the red wolf was not a separate species but a grey wolf X coyote hybrid.

 

[birdsandbats]

The Red Wolf has been going back and forth between full species and subspecies for decades. Nowadays I'm not sure of any major source who still refers to it as a subspecies but it's certainly not extremely recently.

And to be fair, I'm pretty sure the African Forest Elephant split is less controversial than the Red Wolf

~Thylo

The notices about it not being a species but an hybrid origin population started just this year.



Wrong. The elephant is certainly more controversial than the wolf as it was considered as a subespecies when I was child. Anyway, and what????

I'm sure that the African Forest Elephant is less controversial than the Red Wolf. I haven't looked at the papers that split either of them, but I have seen more field guides, websites, and the like split the elephants than I have seen ones that split the wolf (heck I've seen some older ones lump Red Wolf and Coyote).

 

[birdsandbats]

The one that I think is still contested is the status of Canis lycaon, a taxa which is almost entirely overlooked and forgotten despite surely being highly endangered, perhaps even Critically Endangered at this point.

The population of Canis lupus lycaon (I don't accept the split) is higher than you might think.

 

[Chlidonias]

The notices about it not being a species but an hybrid origin population started just this year.

Wrong. The elephant is certainly more controversial than the wolf as it was considered as a subespecies when I was child. Anyway, and what????

Just because you haven't heard about something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The first explicit paper making the case for a hybrid origin of the Red Wolf was back in 1991, but hybridisation as part of their make-up has been around as an idea since at least the 1940s. Even a simple google search will give that information.

And something being the case when you were a child doesn't make a change "certainly more controversial". That's not really a consideration of taxonomists.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

I'm sure that the African Forest Elephant is less controversial than the Red Wolf. I haven't looked at the papers that split either of them, but I have seen more field guides, websites, and the like split the elephants than I have seen ones that split the wolf (heck I've seen some older ones lump Red Wolf and Coyote).

I remember only several years ago seeing something about the possibility that rufus and lycaon were actually the same species as well, or even that the former was a natural hybrid between lycaon and latrans. The close similarity between the two taxa is partly why I do choose to split off lycaon from lupus.

As for lycaon, much of the official range of the (sub)species consists of hybrid populations. For example the wolves in the Great Lakes region are believed to be hybrids with Grey Wolves, and in the rest of the Northeast US there are thought to be very, very few purebred animals among the Coyote hybrids, if any at all. I'm not too familiar with how widespread pure animals are in Canada, but Algonquin National Park is supposed to be home to both the nucleus of the pure population.

(As a side note, it's a bit of a dream of mine to go and see some of the pure Eastern Wolves, they're in my top 5 North American species I've yet to see)

~Thylo

 

[birdsandbats]

I remember only several years ago seeing something about the possibility that rufus and lycaon were actually the same species as well, or even that the former was a natural hybrid between lycaon and latrans. The close similarity between the two taxa is partly why I do choose to split off lycaon from lupus.

As for lycaon, much of the official range of the (sub)species consists of hybrid populations. For example the wolves in the Great Lakes region are believed to be hybrids with Grey Wolves, and in the rest of the Northeast US there are thought to be very, very few purebred animals among the Coyote hybrids, if any at all. I'm not too familiar with how widespread pure animals are in Canada, but Algonquin National Park is supposed to be home to both the nucleus of the pure population.

(As a side note, it's a bit of a dream of mine to go and see some of the pure Eastern Wolves, they're in my top 5 North American species I've yet to see)

~Thylo

What are your other four?

 

[ThylacineAlive]

What are your other four?

Unless I'm forgetting something obvious my main remaining species would be North Atlantic Right Whale (not a strict NA species but still), Vancouver Island Marmot, Attwater's Prairie Chicken, and Florida Scrub-Jay (attempted to find but failed).

Even though the Caribbean is part of North America I am leaving it off for the purposes of the above list as there are a lot of species in the Caribbean I'd love to see.

~Thylo

 

[Kakapo]

Anyway I didn't noticed absolutely none source (I didn't searched it specifically either) that talk about the red wolf being considered a different thing than a pure species until this year. Of course these news didn't surprised me, as change every taxa of every animal on plant on Earth 183757890236459 times every year, forwards and backwards and in all combination imaginable, it's just what the taxonomist do now... So I took it as another more of the trillion of taxonomic OPINIONS (=taxonomic changes) that don't deserve more attention to me than any other personal and debatable opinion.

The elephant thing, in the contrary way, was zillion times older, in fact it was prior to the Golden Age of taxonomic ill crazeness, maybe for that this is one of the species that I readily accepted just inmediately after reading it (much before to joining Zoochat).

Roses are red, clouds are white, forest elephants are not controversial and red wolves are even less controversial You can considere anything that you want (I will not be belligerant with any opinion that don't match with mine, as you are), but if you keep considering forest elephants as the same species than African elephants, you probably will find a lot of people that disagree in your way

 

[ThylacineAlive]

Can we stop viewing the challenging of an idea to provoke conversation and debate as the same thing as being belligerent towards someone else's opinion...

Anyway I didn't noticed absolutely none source (I didn't searched it specifically either) that talk about the red wolf being considered a different thing than a pure species until this year. Of course these news didn't surprised me, as change every taxa of every animal on plant on Earth 183757890236459 times every year, forwards and backwards and in all combination imaginable, it's just what the taxonomist do now... So I took it as another more of the trillion of taxonomic OPINIONS (=taxonomic changes) that don't deserve more attention to me than any other personal and debatable opinion.

The elephant thing, in the contrary way, was zillion times older, in fact it was prior to the Golden Age of taxonomic ill crazeness, maybe for that this is one of the species that I readily accepted just inmediately after reading it (much before to joining Zoochat).

Roses are red, clouds are white, forest elephants are not controversial and red wolves are even less controversial You can considere anything that you want (I will not be belligerant with any opinion that don't match with mine, as you are), but if you keep considering forest elephants as the same species than African elephants, you probably will find a lot of people that disagree in your way

So.. you accept Loxondonta cyclotis? Sorry I'm not understanding what you're saying with that last paragraph.

As for your first paragraph, just because you didn't see the controversy on the Red Wolf until this year doesn't mean it's simply the result of modern day taxonomic craziness. As @Chlidonias said there are been talk about this going back to the 1940's (the same period where Koalas were possums, something you accept). I would definitely agree that a lot of modern day taxonomy comes down to certain peoples' opinions and sometimes even politics, but that doesn't mean all modern taxonomy should be dismissed immediately.

The African elephant split isn't exactly new anyhow, cyclotis was described back in 1900 and a quick Ecosia search- I try to use that more than Google when I can- shows that scientists were debating its species status at least two decades ago with a common consensus being decided on around 2010 (which is almost a decade ago mind you). The two species have been separated for 3million years, are completely different sizes, have extremely distinct morphology/skeletal structure, occupy separate ecosystems/habitats, and genetically are as close as Asian Elephants and mammoths are.

~Thylo

 

[Kakapo]

and genetically are as close as Asian Elephants and mammoths are.

Oh! Kinda surprises me... Time to get Mammuthus again into Elephas then? If we lump Mammuthus with Elephas then for sure we must lump with Elephas the closer Palaeoloxodon too...

 

[ZooBinh]

Can we stop viewing the challenging of an idea to provoke conversation and debate as the same thing as being belligerent towards someone else's opinion...



So.. you accept Loxondonta cyclotis? Sorry I'm not understanding what you're saying with that last paragraph.

As for your first paragraph, just because you didn't see the controversy on the Red Wolf until this year doesn't mean it's simply the result of modern day taxonomic craziness. As @Chlidonias said there are been talk about this going back to the 1940's (the same period where Koalas were possums, something you accept). I would definitely agree that a lot of modern day taxonomy comes down to certain peoples' opinions and sometimes even politics, but that doesn't mean all modern taxonomy should be dismissed immediately.

The African elephant split isn't exactly new anyhow, cyclotis was described back in 1900 and a quick Ecosia search- I try to use that more than Google when I can- shows that scientists were debating its species status at least two decades ago with a common consensus being decided on around 2010 (which is almost a decade ago mind you). The two species have been separated for 3million years, are completely different sizes, have extremely distinct morphology/skeletal structure, occupy separate ecosystems/habitats, and genetically are as close as Asian Elephants and mammoths are.

~Thylo

Koalas as possums? I'm not up to date on taxonomy, but that sounds absurd to me.....

Another question : I consider cyclotis as it's own species, is this a debatable thing? They are in different ecosystems, the sizes are significantly different (even at adult stages). Is it a debated opinion/ topic?

 

[ThylacineAlive]

Koalas as possums? I'm not up to date on taxonomy, but that sounds absurd to me.....

Another question : I consider cyclotis as it's own species, is this a debatable thing? They are in different ecosystems, the sizes are significantly different (even at adult stages). Is it a debated opinion/ topic?

As for the elephant situation, I'd suggest rereading our conversation on them. The point is, no, it's not really a debated idea anymore (among taxonomists anyway).

~Thylo

 

[ZooBinh]

Just curious @Kakapo . Where do you get all this taxanomic information?

 

[Sarus Crane]

Oh! Kinda surprises me... Time to get Mammuthus again into Elephas then? If we lump Mammuthus with Elephas then for sure we must lump with Elephas the closer Palaeoloxodon too...

Well if you look at certain individuals such as Dalip (Zoo Miami), Spike (DC National Zoo), Siam (Paris Zoo Vincennes), Chieng Mai (Zoo Kobenhaven), Colonel Joe (Circus Krone) they nearly all have/had Palaeoloxodon-like traits such as straight long tusks, tall skinny heads, and a slight slope to their backs. If possible I'd have them tested to see how much DNA matches up with Palaeoloxodon since they were able to get P. antiquus DNA from a German specimen.

Since P. recki migrated into Eurasia and evolved into P. namadicus, its only a matter of time before the shakeup of Asiatic Proboscidean evolution gets solved due to advancing breakthroughs in DNA technology. We now know that Mammuthus jeffersoni is a hybrid from M.primigenius and M. columbi so why not Palaeoloxodon namadicus and Elephas maximus sharing genes? I've been following up on this theory for the past 2 years and it never ceases to fascinate me (I'm obsessed with Palaeoloxodons)!

 

[Kakapo]

Just curious @Kakapo . Where do you get all this taxanomic information?

From LOGIC and KNOWLEGDE.

 

[Kakapo]

Well if you look at certain individuals such as Dalip (Zoo Miami), Spike (DC National Zoo), Siam (Paris Zoo Vincennes), Chieng Mai (Zoo Kobenhaven), Colonel Joe (Circus Krone) they nearly all have/had Palaeoloxodon-like traits such as straight long tusks, tall skinny heads, and a slight slope to their backs. If possible I'd have them tested to see how much DNA matches up with Palaeoloxodon since they were able to get P. antiquus DNA from a German specimen.

Since P. recki migrated into Eurasia and evolved into P. namadicus, its only a matter of time before the shakeup of Asiatic Proboscidean evolution gets solved due to advancing breakthroughs in DNA technology. We now know that Mammuthus jeffersoni is a hybrid from M.primigenius and M. columbi so why not Palaeoloxodon namadicus and Elephas maximus sharing genes? I've been following up on this theory for the past 2 years and it never ceases to fascinate me (I'm obsessed with Palaeoloxodons)!

Thanks for write kind and nice replies that jus't don't try to ridiculize or fight against any idea that is not just stucked in a square head that cannot accept any different opinion than yours. You're a Lovely Zoochatter.

Thanks also for keep the conversation in the theming for what this thread is (a thing that everybody should do!) Certainly an Indian rhino is a good match for a Sarus crane because is unlikely to be attacked by the crane due both to placid nature and heavy defenses, and both are geographically consistent

 

[Sarus Crane]

Thanks for write kind and nice replies that jus't don't try to ridiculize or fight against any idea that is not just stucked in a square head that cannot accept any different opinion than yours. You're a Lovely Zoochatter.

Thanks also for keep the conversation in the theming for what this thread is (a thing that everybody should do!) Certainly an Indian rhino is a good match for a Sarus crane because is unlikely to be attacked by the crane due both to placid nature and heavy defenses, and both are geographically consistent

I appreciate your complements!

 

[Chlidonias]

Unless I'm forgetting something obvious my main remaining species would be North Atlantic Right Whale (not a strict NA species but still), Vancouver Island Marmot, Attwater's Prairie Chicken, and Florida Scrub-Jay (attempted to find but failed).

What about Sewellel? Have you already seen that? It's my top North American mammal I'd like to see.