ZooChat Challenge North America 2020

[CGSwans]

, I found there are a number of animals I never considered to be endangered or vulnerable, even species I had been in close proximity to for all my life.

I do not believe the lists of animals would be too long, considering the vast majority of birds and herps kept, the two groups other than fish making up the most diversity of species in zoos, are not endangered.

And here we have, in two neatly packaged sentences, the reason why this challenge doesn’t work. Species that are unexpectedly eligible, and vast numbers of species that might be eligible, but prove not to be.

 

[Chlidonias]

I do not believe the lists of animals would be too long, considering the vast majority of birds and herps kept, the two groups other than fish making up the most diversity of species in zoos, are not endangered.

I'm not competing, so have no stake in the decisions, but this quote above I think encapsulates the "misunderstanding" between the two sides. The question isn't about how long any valid lists will end up being, but that even if "the vast majority" of zoo animals don't count they will all still have to be checked to find out if they count - and there's no way to do that without searching each one individually.

 

[lintworm]

Probably the only time I'll have the lead this year.

High Park Zoo - 01/01/2020

1. Mouflon Sheep Ovis orientalis
2. Reindeer Rangifer tarandus (not entirely sure if this counts, so correct me if it doesn't)

European mouflon are actually domesticated animals, so unless you would see the gmelini mouflon of SDZ safari park, I don't think they should count.

 

[jayjds2]

And here we have, in two neatly packaged sentences, the reason why this challenge doesn’t work. Species that are unexpectedly eligible, and vast numbers of species that might be eligible, but prove not to be.

This small margin is where the potential for learning exists. Given the soon-to-be creation of a master list, all eligible species will be known. Giving it a once-over will give people an indication of what to look for. Again, you are overstating the tediousness of this challenge.

I'm not competing, so have no stake in the decisions, but this quote above I think encapsulates the "misunderstanding" between the two sides. The question isn't about how long any valid lists will end up being, but that even if "the vast majority" of zoo animals don't count they will all still have to be checked to find out if they count - and there's no way to do that without searching each one individually.

The list that I hope to have posted within the next few days will make this a much quicker and efficient process.

 

[CGSwans]

This small margin is where the potential for learning exists. Given the soon-to-be creation of a master list, all eligible species will be known. Giving it a once-over will give people an indication of what to look for. Again, you are overstating the tediousness of this challenge.

The list that I hope to have posted within the next few days will make this a much quicker and efficient process.

To clarify, what is this proposed list? Is it going to be 9000 species long?

 

[TZDugong]

European mouflon are actually domesticated animals, so unless you would see the gmelini mouflon of SDZ safari park, I don't think they should count.

Ah ok, I'll take it off then. I actually forgot one species so my number won't change.

2. Aoudad Ammotragus lervia

 

[jayjds2]

To clarify, what is this proposed list? Is it going to be 9000 species long?

A list that has the vast majority of species kept in the US that will count for the challenge. It will not be 9000 species - far less than that are kept in captivity at all, much less those that are threatened.

 

[CGSwans]

A list that has the vast majority of species kept in the US that will count for the challenge. It will not be 9000 species - far less than that are kept in captivity at all, much less those that are threatened.

For it to actually be helpful you will need to define those species as the ones that will count, and exclude any others. Otherwise people would *still* need to look up the rest to see if something is in fact an eligible species that you missed.

This remains a non-intuitive challenge and not one that is accessible to everybody. Even if you come up with a list of 'only' 600 species, that's still the equivalent of a 10 page Word document with size ten font. Participating is not going to be a straightforward, simple thing. How is the actual practical aspect of participating going to be made 'fun'?

 

[d1am0ndback]

For it to actually be helpful you will need to define those species as the ones that will count, and exclude any others. Otherwise people would *still* need to look up the rest to see if something is in fact an eligible species that you missed.

This remains a non-intuitive challenge and not one that is accessible to everybody. Even if you come up with a list of 'only' 600 species, that's still the equivalent of a 10 page Word document with size ten font. Participating is not going to be a straightforward, simple thing. How is the actual practical aspect of participating going to be made 'fun'?

I believe you are over-stating how difficult it will be to keep up with this challenge, and are being a bit overly aggressive about the matter.

For the majority of species, I doubt the list will even need to be referenced considering the majority of American zoos exhibit their animals with an iucn status on their signage. This narrows down many of the animals that would need to be googled. I might add that it takes less than 5 seconds to google an animal on iucn making it extremely easy to check an animal regardless of our list as a base.

The only animals I would expect to be NOT accounted for on the list would be those that are amog the only of their kind in captivity in small, unvisited zoos, which I would imagine a zoo chatter should be able to pick up on and do the 5 second research themselves. If additional species are found, they will be added to our baseline list.

Regarding the note taking, I believe that all zoochat challenges require this since the inputing of anything onto them involves note taking, so this should be nothing new.

I would appreciate if you would provide us more helpful comments than "this remains a non-intuitive challenge", especially for someone who will not be participating heavily in it.

 

[CGSwans]

Constructive criticism is not “aggression”.

 

[Mbwamwitu]

EXTREMELY excited to participate as a new North American that frantically dashed through the National Zoo to rack up a decent starting list. Anyone familiar with the National Zoo will notice a LOT of missing species - that's because I did a fragmented dash through focusing on just some of my favorite exhibits and avoiding areas like the Reptile House and Amazonia of which I would like to research the IUCN statuses of the individual reptile/amphibian species before going. I live here in D.C. now so I'll go again and tick off all those as well as some famous dips like the giant panda, clouded leopard and sloth bear.

National Zoo, D.C. - 1/1/20

1. Fishing cat - VU
2. Asian small-clawed otter - VU
3. Red panda - EN
4. Asian elephant - EN
5. Grevy's zebra - EN
6. Scimitar oryx - EW
7. Ruppell's vulture - CR
8. Cheetah - VU
9. Woylie - CR
10. Goeldi's monkey - VU
11. Long-tailed chinchilla - EN
12. Red ruffed lemur - CR
13. Black-footed ferret - EN
14. Golden lion tamarin - EN
15. Golden-headed lion tamarin - EN
16. Western gorilla - CR
17. Bornean orangutan - CR
18. Chinese alligator - CR
19. False gharial - VU
20. Komodo dragon - VU
21. Tiger - EN
22. Lion - VU

I'll edit and add the Latin names in a bit. And to be clear, we are not doing fishes, right?

Good luck, everyone!

 

[jayjds2]

For it to actually be helpful you will need to define those species as the ones that will count, and exclude any others. Otherwise people would *still* need to look up the rest to see if something is in fact an eligible species that you missed.

This remains a non-intuitive challenge and not one that is accessible to everybody. Even if you come up with a list of 'only' 600 species, that's still the equivalent of a 10 page Word document with size ten font. Participating is not going to be a straightforward, simple thing. How is the actual practical aspect of participating going to be made 'fun'?

Considering the comprehensiveness of the material that this list is based on, it is likely that there will be no species missed. However, while this is not a guarantee, I will not be restricting those species which count for the challenge to the list when it is provided. What if a new species were to go on exhibit for the first time? Though unlikely, this could prove to be a tipping point for the victory of the challenge. Species missed by those who have compiled the list can be added later, and by looking at other ZooChatter's lists we will know what to expect from each zoo.

The list is in its final draft already - it really didn't take long, and we are at 451 species. However, consider this: many species are held strictly behind the scenes or in a very small number of facilities. If you subtract off the species that are so restricted (on-exhibit at 5 zoos or less), only 281 are in play - which is about right for several of the recent challenges. I don't quite understand how you claim this challenge as not accessible - could you explain?

Constructive criticism is not “aggression”.

Perhaps not, but some of the remarks made by yourself as well as the continued persistence and tone of your posts despite changes have come off to be quite aggressive, whether you intended them to be so or not. One member (who shall remain unnamed for risk of further stirring the pot) even described in a PM the remarks of you and others as "insulting."

EXTREMELY excited to participate as a new North American that frantically dashed through the National Zoo to rack up a decent starting list. Anyone familiar with the National Zoo will notice a LOT of missing species - that's because I did a fragmented dash through focusing on just some of my favorite exhibits and avoiding areas like the Reptile House and Amazonia of which I would like to research the IUCN statuses of the individual reptile/amphibian species before going. I live here in D.C. now so I'll go again and tick off all those as well as some famous dips like the giant panda, clouded leopard and sloth bear.

National Zoo, D.C. - 1/1/20

1. Fishing cat - VU
2. Asian small-clawed otter - VU
3. Red panda - EN
4. Asian elephant - EN
5. Grevy's zebra - EN
6. Scimitar oryx - EW
7. Ruppell's vulture - CR
8. Cheetah - VU
9. Woylie - CR
10. Goeldi's monkey - VU
11. Long-tailed chinchilla - EN
12. Red ruffed lemur - CR
13. Black-footed ferret - EN
14. Golden lion tamarin - EN
15. Golden-headed lion tamarin - EN
16. Western gorilla - CR
17. Bornean orangutan - CR
18. Chinese alligator - CR
19. False gharial - VU
20. Komodo dragon - VU
21. Tiger - EN
22. Lion - VU

I'll edit and add the Latin names in a bit. And to be clear, we are not doing fishes, right?

Good luck, everyone!

Correct, we are no longer including fishes in the challenge - and I will petition to have the initial post of the thread altered to clarify so shortly. Good list so far! There's no need to put the conservation status behind each animal, although it is interesting to do so if you'd like.

 

[d1am0ndback]

Constructive criticism is not “aggression”.

I never said constructive criticism couldn't be done aggressively.

I started off the challenge today at the Audubon Aquarium and Audubon Insectarium. All of the species listed were at the aquarium as the insectarium had nothing that would count for this challenge.

1. Golden Poison Frog, Phyllobates terribilis
2. Sea Otter, Enhydra lutris
3. Green Sea Turtle, Chelonia mydas
4. Hyacinth Macaw, Anodorhynchus hyacinthinus
6. African Penguin, Spheniscus demersus

 

[TeaLovingDave]

For the sake of openness, @jayjds2 has asked me to edit his opening post to add the master list of species, clarify that fish are not to be considered, and clear up one or two other points.

 

[CGSwans]

The list is in its final draft already - it really didn't take long, and we are at 451 species. However, consider this: many species are held strictly behind the scenes or in a very small number of facilities. If you subtract off the species that are so restricted (on-exhibit at 5 zoos or less), only 281 are in play - which is about right for several of the recent challenges. I don't quite understand how you claim this challenge as not accessible - could you explain?

Thank you, this is a smaller number than I expected (and I'm actually genuinely surprised it is so low), and much more manageable than I feared.

Perhaps not, but some of the remarks made by yourself as well as the continued persistence and tone of your posts despite changes have come off to be quite aggressive, whether you intended them to be so or not. One member (who shall remain unnamed for risk of further stirring the pot) even described in a PM the remarks of you and others as "insulting."

Certainly not my intention, but I don't accept that I have been anything other than constructive and respectful. The trouble is that it's rather hard to defend myself against this particular allegation (which I feel is both unjustified and offensive) without fanning further tension. It's particularly irritating to have to answer to criticism from people who won't put their name to it.

I will only note that I had expressed the intention to accept your decision and move on, and only continued the debate after you stated that you were willing to discuss it further. Anyway, this time I'm out.

 

[Imperator Furiosa]

Had to be at the zoo today so I hopefully was able to get a bit of a head start. This is absolutely not a full list, poor weather conditions kept a lot of animals indoors. But it's not as if I won't be back here ever. Species have been cross-referenced with the IUCN database, status is noted after the scientific name.

Lincoln Park Zoo - 01/01/2020
1. Pied Tamarin (Saguinus bicolor) CR
2. François' Langur (Trachypithecus francoisi) EN
3. Northern White-cheeked Gibbon (Nomascus leucogenys) CR
4. Western Gorilla (Gorilla gorilla) CR
5. Common Chimpanzee (Pan troglodytes) EN
6. Takin (Budorcas taxicolor) VU
7. Asian Small-clawed Otter (Aonyx cinereus) VU
8. Golden-headed Lion Tamarin (Leontopithecus chrysomelas) EN
9. Pygmy Hippopotamus (Choeropsis liberiensis) EN
10. Puerto Rican Amazon (Amazona vittata) CR
11. Snowy Owl (Bubo scandiacus) VU
12. Palawan Peacock-pheasant (Polyplectron napoleonis) VU
13. Baer's Pochard (Aythya baeri) CR
14. Bali Myna (Leucopsar rothschildi) CR
15. Helmeted Curassow (Pauxi pauxi) EN
16. Kagu (Rhynochetos jubatus) EN
17. Guam Rail (Gallirallus owstoni) CR
18. African Penguin (Spheniscus demersus) EN
19. Yellow-spotted River Turtle (Podocnemis unifilis) VU
20. Jamaican Iguana (Cyclura collei) CR
21. West African Dwarf Crocodile (Osteolaemus tetraspis) VU
22. Spotted Turtle (Clemmys guttata) EN
23. Wood Turtle (Glyptemys insculpta) EN
24. Blanding’s Turtle (Emydoidea blandingii) EN
25. Common Box Turtle (Terrapene carolina) VU
26. Axolotl (Ambystoma mexicanum) CR

 

[jayjds2]

Saint Louis Zoo 1/2/20

1. Matschie's tree-kangaroo, Dendrolagus matschiei
2. Tasmanian devil, Sarcophilus harrisii
3. Chimpanzee, Pan troglodytes
4. Bornean orangutan, Pongo abelii
5. Red panda, Ailurus f. fulgens
6. Marbled teal, Marmonetta angustirostris
7. Golden white-eye, Cleptornis marchei
8. Horned guan, Oreophasis derbianus
9. Micronesian kingfisher, Todiramphus cinnamonius
10. Congo peafowl, Afropavo congensis
11. Common box turtle, Terrapene carolina
12. Bali mynah, Leucospar rothschildi
13. Cabot's tragopan, Tragopan caboti
14. White-naped crane, Antigone vipio
15. Soemmerring's gazelle, Nanger s. soemmerringii
16. Giraffe, Giraffa camelopardalis
17. Okapi, Okapia johnstoni
18. Speke's gazelle, Gazella spekei
19. Babirusa, Babyrousa celebensis
20. Visayan warty pig, Sus cebifrons
21. Banteng, Bos javanicus
22. Sarus crane, Antigone antigone
23. Somali wild ass, Equus africanus somalicus
24. Addax, Addax nasomaculatus
25. Takin, Budorcas taxicolor
26. Chinese goral, Naemorhedus griseus
27. Addra gazelle, Nanger dama ruficollis
28. Transcaspian urial, Ovis orientalis arkal
29. Amur tiger, Panthera tigris altaica
30. Snow leopard, Panthera uncia
31. Amur leopard, Panthera pardus orientalis
32. Grevy's zebra, Equus grevyi
33. African lion, Panthera leo
34. Francois' langur, Trachypithecus fracoisi
35. Ring-tailed lemur, Lemur catta
36. Black lemur, Eulemur macaco
37. Black-and-white ruffed lemur, Varecia v. variegata
38. Coquerel's sifaka, Propithecus coquereli
39. Common spider tortoise, Pyxis arachnoides
40. Jamaican boa, Chilabothrus subflavus
41. Mangshan pitviper, Protobothrops mangshanensis
42. McCord's box turtle, Cuora mccordi
43. Mountain chicken, Leptodactylus fallax
44. Pig-nosed turtle, Carettochelys insculpta
45. Pacific horned frog, Ceratophrys stolzmanni
46. Puerto Rican crested toad, Peltophryne lemur
47. King cobra, Ophiophagus hannah
48. Henkel's leaf-tailed gecko, Uroplatus henkeli
49. Lake Titicaca water frog, Telmatobius culeus
50. Limosa harlequin frog, Atelopus pulcher
51. Andean marsupial frog, Gastrotheca riobambae
52. Narrow-headed softshell turtle, Chitra indica
53. Yellow-footed tortoise, Chelonoidis denticulata
54. Rio Pescado stubfoot toad, Atelopus balios
55. Rowley's palm pitviper, Bothriechis rowleyi
56. Panamanian golden frog, Atelopus zeteki
57. Alligator snapping turtle, Macrochelys temmincki
58. Egyptian tortoise, Testudo kleinmanni
59. Iranian mountain viper, Montivipera albicornuta
60. Ocellate mountain viper, Montivipera wagneri
61. Kaiser's spotted newt, Neurergus kaiseri
62. Chinese crocodile lizard, Shinisaurus crocodilurus
63. Black-breasted leaf turtle, Geoemyda spengleri
64. Giant Asian pond turtle, Heosemys grandis
65. Yellow-headed temple turtle, Heosemys annandalli
66. Aldabra giant tortoise, Aldabrachelys gigantea
67. Malayan gharial, Tomistoma schlegelii
68. Utila Island iguana, Ctenosaura bakeri
69. Chinese alligator, Alligator sinensis
70. Western gorilla, Gorilla gorilla gorilla
71. Southeast Asian box turtle, Cuora amboinensis
72. Asian elephant, Elephas maximus
73. Cheetah, Acinonyx jubatus
74. Common hippopotamus, Hippopotamus amphibius
75. Black rhinoceros, Diceros bicornis
76. African wild dog, Lycaon pictus
77. Spectacled bear, Tremarctos ornatus

 

[birdsandbats]

Are we sure there are only 6 threatened passerine species in North American zoos?

EDIT: European Rabbit is missing from the list.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

Several points addressing comments from across the thread:
A. I agree that fish should have been removed from the list. I'd also argue that maybe amphibians should as well? They're a highly endangered group so I don't want to see them removed but I understand the arguments that it might be a bit daunting to keep track of them, especially when my global challenge last year focused on them
B. The Armenian Mouflon are bts at SDZSP so they wouldn't count either, however I think Metro Richmond keeps them so they would be the only zoo where Mouflon can be counted.
C. There aren't any non-domesticated European Rabbits in US zoos anyway.
D. I agree that the challenge involves a lot of work, however I find it hard to believe that most of us don't already have a basic knowledge of which animals kept in zoos are endangered. The vast majority of the species, especially when it comes to mammals and birds, that are relevant to this challenge are well known to be endangered species, many of whom we casually talk about how endangered they are on this forum nearly every day. With the extremely helpful inclusion of the master list, I don't think this challenge is asking people to do all that much research.
E. I fail to see how having to keep track of the IUCN Redlist is considered to be more work than the current topic in the ZooChat Cup which requires us all to have to research which specific biome(s) every individual species at every remaining zoo naturally belongs to....

~Thylo

 

[birdsandbats]

A. I agree that fish should have been removed from the list. I'd also argue that maybe amphibians should as well? They're a highly endangered group so I don't want to see them removed but I understand the arguments that it might be a bit daunting to keep track of them, especially when my global challenge last year focused on them

Why are amphibians hard to keep track of? I would say they are easier then reptiles. (It's worth noting that reptiles are my main problem with this challenge now that fish aren't in it - a big reptile house with poor signage would be a nightmare to go through).

C. There aren't any non-domesticated European Rabbits in US zoos anyway.

Not in the US but Great Vancouver Zoo keeps them.