ZooChat Cup finals: Beauval vs Plzen

[NSU42]

@TeaLovingDave has convinced me to switch my vote to 2-1 Plzen. The argument for Beauval has been based around basically 4 "big" exhibits. Penguins, Hippos, Sea Lions, and Manatees, with a side exhibit for sting rays, a few Great Barrier Reef tanks, and two bird yards for Flamingos and Pelicans. As far as I'm concerned, if the manatees are off show they don't count other than as a behind the scenes animal. Its unfortunate Beauval drew this match now, but thats just how it works out. On the flip side, Plzen has a dedicated exhibit area for an ecosystem in their own country that looks very well done, plus their decent to good exhibits for many other species. Yes, there is an argument to be made for quality over quantity, but from what I have seen Plzen has plenty of quality to go with quantity. It may not reach the level of Beauval, but it is enough to get the win for me.

Lastly, I thought @CGSwans made it pretty clear in the management thread that animals that may take a swim and wallow like elephants aren't relevant to this category. That would pretty clearly extend to rhinos for me, as I see them in the water far less than elephants.

EDIT: The way Beauval's Tropical Dome has to be ruled as out of scope every match that it is involved in is getting extremely old and annoying. Its not open yet, tough luck, get over it.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

The argument for Beauval has been based around basically 4 "big" exhibits. Penguins, Hippos, Sea Lions, and Manatees, with a side exhibit for sting rays, a few Great Barrier Reef tanks, and two bird yards for Flamingos and Pelicans.

You say that, but despite my asking for further details a few times, no one has actually said much about any of them other than the manatee one so the word "argument" is somewhat debatable.

Lastly, I thought @CGSwans made it pretty clear in the management thread that animals that may take a swim and wallow like elephants aren't relevant to this category. That would pretty clearly extend to rhinos for me, as I see them in the water far less than elephants.

I've rooted out the original quotes, which were spurred by people asking if Zurich having underwater viewing in their elephant house meant that exhibit was relevant:

Yes, I do feel a need to step in and say that, however wonderful Zurich's underwater viewing for elephants is, it doesn't *quite* rise to the level of relevance for this category. The qualifying criteria is that freshwater must be 'integral and essential' to the species' habitat and lifestyle, beyond the obvious need to drink..........I later expanded on this to clarify that where an exhibit is explicitly themed around a given biome then a species can count. For example, a jaguar exhibit is not relevant to 'Freshwater' on its own, but will fall within the definition if it is designed to represent the Pantanal as a habitat in which jaguars live.

It's definitely a tricky borderline issue - but for what it's worth the Indian Rhinoceros is a lot more aquatic in its habits and ecology than are any of the extant elephant species, being native to floodplains and marshlands of the southern Himalayan foothills and the upper Indo-Gangetic Plain, and spending a significant portion of the day bathing in wallows; the diagnostic skin folds found in this species are designed to trap water and mud as a cooling mechanism.

The fact that Indian Rhinoceros are - I believe - required to have wallows in their exhibits in European collections also suggests the species perhaps does count for this category.

 

[NSU42]

You say that, but despite my asking for further details a few times, no one has actually said much about any of them other than the manatee one so the word "argument" is somewhat debatable.

Funny you say that, as I thought the exact same thing when typing this.

It's definitely a tricky borderline issue - but for what it's worth the Indian Rhinoceros is a lot more aquatic in its habits and ecology than are any of the extant elephant species, being native to floodplains and marshlands of the southern Himalayan foothills and the upper Indo-Gangetic Plain, and spending a significant portion of the day bathing in wallows; the diagnostic skin folds found in this species are designed to trap water and mud as a cooling mechanism.

The fact that Indian Rhinoceros are - I believe - required to have wallows in their exhibits in European collections also suggests the species perhaps does count for this category.

Fair enough. Still isn't enough in my mind, but to each their own.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Fair enough. Still isn't enough in my mind, but to each their own.

It's not even one I am certain on but someone else suggested it upthread and I saw enough merit in the suggestion to think it worth including the exhibit in my photo roundup to be safe.

 

[NSU42]

It's not even one I am certain on but someone else suggested it upthread and I saw enough merit in the suggestion to think it worth including the exhibit in my photo roundup to be safe.

I know. I figured I would just get in my 2-cents on the matter

 

[Coelacanth18]

@TeaLovingDave has convinced me to switch my vote to 2-1 Plzen. The argument for Beauval has been based around basically 4 "big" exhibits. Penguins, Hippos, Sea Lions, and Manatees, with a side exhibit for sting rays, a few Great Barrier Reef tanks, and two bird yards for Flamingos and Pelicans.

This combined with the informative post from @TeaLovingDave is why I switched to Plzen. Beauval appears to have strength due to its showcasing of star aquatic species, like the manatees and hippo aviary. While the manatees (as a species, not an exhibit) counts for a lot in my mind, the hippo aviary still looks amazing, and the penguin habitat at Beauval looks better than at Plzen (more varied terrain and underwater viewing), the commitment beyond that seems minimal. Meanwhile, Plzen has made a quieter commitment to showcasing small aquatic species, like in the Czech River complex and Underground World (which is such an awesome concept, having a cave exhibit in an underground bunker), along with its staggering waterfowl collection. Although I felt it wasn't talked up much, their pygmy hippo exhibit also looks great.

 

[Mr. Zootycoon]

a nice aviary with 6 species of gull

Care to elaborate? You've hit a particular soft spot of mine.

 

[FunkyGibbon]

I'm not sure the current treatment of Beauval's manatees is right. How long will they have been 'offshow' by the time the new dome opens?

The closest precedent I can think of is Berlin TP and carnivores, where it was established that if a zoo closes an old exhibit it should no longer be held against it, just as a new exhibit that isn't open can't be considered. However, is the old manatee pool actually being closed? As @Brum said I was under the impression that the zoo intends to use both of them going forward. At the moment, if that's true, we seem to be dangerously close to saying that existing exhibits can't be considered if the animal they hold is temporarily offshow, which is a position I don't think anyone would have held at the start of the Cup.

I would also suggest that Indian rhinos do count as aquatic, since they spend far more time in water than elephants.

Personally, I am still sticking with my 2-1 to Beauval. Far too many of the exhibits being put forward for Plzen are thoroughly ordinary. I often wonder how many of the people who swing to Plzen after @TeaLovingDave does one of his photo essays would regret their new position if they could actually stand in the zoo and see some of the exhibits with their own eyes.

Just to take one example, whilst Plzen has a great heron collection, it doesn't have a great heron aviary. I've personally seen some of their herons in pretty awful exhibits. Those exhibits may or may not currently be in use, but I've not seen anything to indicate that Plzen has genuinely moved forward in terms of what is considered acceptable housing.

Even the Czech Rivers complex, which is laudable in terms of its focus, presentation and collection, and certainly fits the bill for this category because it places its species firmly within their aquatic context, has a number of tanks or exhibits that, whether or not they are too small (a determination I'm loathe to make), would fare very badly against direct comparison with excellent enclosures.

One point in Plzen's favour though: their signage is generally very good and that is a plus in biomes.

 

[CGSwans]

I'm not sure the current treatment of Beauval's manatees is right. How long will they have been 'offshow' by the time the new dome opens?

The closest precedent I can think of is Berlin TP and carnivores, where it was established that if a zoo closes an old exhibit it should no longer be held against it, just as a new exhibit that isn't open can't be considered. However, is the old manatee pool actually being closed? As @Brum said I was under the impression that the zoo intends to use both of them going forward. At the moment, if that's true, we seem to be dangerously close to saying that existing exhibits can't be considered if the animal they hold is temporarily offshow, which is a position I don't think anyone would have held at the start of the Cup.

This might just be one that slips through the cracks, unless anybody has visited recently enough to say for sure what the current situation is.

The issue here is that there are differing criteria by which people might incorporate manatees into their thinking. Collection-focused people are within their rights to factor their presence within the zoo into their thinking; off-show species are fair game.

Exhibits themselves need to maintain currency: closed exhibits don’t count (except, perhaps, if people want to advance retrospective arguments based on the historical significance of a given exhibit, which is an interesting topic people might wish to explore). Yet to open exhibits also don’t count.

Of course, it the manatees are still on display the distinction doesn’t matter, but I can’t rule on something I don’t know about either way.

edit: to clarify, I do agree that common sense dictates that an exhibit that is temporarily vacant but is known to still be in ongoing use is fair game. Essentially, I don’t think we’ll resolve this one because nobody seems to know what Beauval is doing with its manatees.

 

[antonmuster]

I thought wetlands, marshes and the like belonged to the freshwater category, which is part of the aquatics category.

 

[Vision]

Care to elaborate? You've hit a particular soft spot of mine.

I don't know whether this is still completely the case, but during my 2017 visits the gulls (Grey-headed, Black-headed, Slender-billed, Grey, Laughing and Black-tailed) lived in this spacious and mainly very tall aviary, which allowed for some cool natural behaviour:

African Wetland Aviary

This large aviary contains a number of wetland birds; as the name suggests, it primarily focuses on African taxa but in the winter months it is also used as a holding aviary for many of the European waterfowl species which are scattered throughout the collection during the more clement months of the year.

 

[FunkyGibbon]

This might just be one that slips through the cracks, unless anybody has visited recently enough to say for sure what the current situation is.

The issue here is that there are differing criteria by which people might incorporate manatees into their thinking. Collection-focused people are within their rights to factor their presence within the zoo into their thinking; off-show species are fair game.

Exhibits themselves need to maintain currency: closed exhibits don’t count (except, perhaps, if people want to advance retrospective arguments based on the historical significance of a given exhibit, which is an interesting topic people might wish to explore). Yet to open exhibits also don’t count.

Of course, it the manatees are still on display the distinction doesn’t matter, but I can’t rule on something I don’t know about either way.

edit: to clarify, I do agree that common sense dictates that an exhibit that is temporarily vacant but is known to still be in ongoing use is fair game. Essentially, I don’t think we’ll resolve this one because nobody seems to know what Beauval is doing with its manatees.

If it is a closed exhibit then it should not be counted, but as alluded to above I was under the impression this isn't the case.

 

[Rayane]

Wow ok, there has been some debate going on.
Beauval (just as Pairi Daiza) get very crowded, and this, every other day. The Hippo house (fantastic exhibit) is a relentless highway, same goes for the bird house (I know it doesn't count for this, but it's an exemple) at the entry, it is now too narrow for the zoo. And overall, the whole zoo feels that way. Same could be said about the Amazon greenhouse in Pairi Daiza.
First for the animals, I think they deserve a little rest from people from time to time, then for the visitors. In Plzen, who has a lower budget by far, they managed to make simple yet spacious and pleasant exhibits for both people and animals. They do not get overcrowded, in many ways you can retire to a quieter area and overall the experience is more agreable.
Ok Beauval has more and flashier exhibits for its Aquatic animals, but what good is an exhibit if one can't really enjoy it ?
Then I really like to compare zoos based on their budget. Plzen has a few really good exhibits, that are not near as expensive as the ones in Beauval, yet, in my opinion, it competes really well in that area.
Just read again the whole thread, how does Plzen compare to the Manatee pool and the sea lions ? (Because I don't really see a gap between both zoos Penguin's exhibit). Well, I couldn't see the sea lions at Beauval because the first time, the amount of people around made me turn away, I've seen sea lions and I will see them again, the second time the show was full. But yes, nice pool, I don't remember anything outstanding though.
Then on the Manatee pool, I really enjoyed that part, especially since the last Manatee Pool I saw before that was the one in Tierpark Berlin.

Am I wrong for counting in crowding ? I don't think so, when you're the 1st zoo in France (not anymore, I believe Doué got it this year) you know you're going to have tons of people walking around.
Am I wrong for giving so much value to a Czech river fish complex ? I don't think so, its value is even higher considering the uniqueness and the educationnal purpose of the complex.

Sorry if my judgement doesn't seem objective to some, I did my best.

 

[HOMIN96]

I don't know whether this is still completely the case, but during my 2017 visits the gulls (Grey-headed, Black-headed, Slender-billed, Grey, Laughing and Black-tailed) lived in this spacious and mainly very tall aviary, which allowed for some cool natural behaviour:

I think some of the species aren't present anymore, but I'm not 100%sure.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Just to take one example, whilst Plzen has a great heron collection, it doesn't have a great heron aviary. I've personally seen some of their herons in pretty awful exhibits.

I suspect you're particularly alluding to the Madagascar aviary described above - in a prior round I noted that it is a lot less overfilled than had been the case when some had seen it

I think some of the species aren't present anymore, but I'm not 100%sure.

I recall seeing all but the black-headed in October

So; arguments in favour of a Beauval clean sweep (presumably based around the quality of the penguin, sealion and hippo exhibits, given these seem to be the only ones people are alluding to) from @Haasje @Penshet and @Shruikan ?

 

[HOMIN96]

I suspect you're particularly alluding to the Madagascar aviary described above - in a prior round I noted that it is a lot less overfilled than had been the case when some had seen it

I think worst offender in this particular case was actually keeping Goliath herons in the small cubicle aviary in the aviary row belonging to the Tropical house. But fortunately they are gone now.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I think worst offender in this particular case was actually keeping Goliath herons in the small cubicle aviary in the aviary row belonging to the Tropical house. But fortunately they are gone now

I don't think I ever saw them in there - in 2017 they were in the aviary next to the Pygmy Hippopotamus house which FG was asking about, and in 2019 they were gone.

 

[Brum]

As much as I'm enjoying this debate about the manatee enclosures, are we sure all of them have moved to the new dome?

Btw, what is going to happen to the original manatee tank?

Beauval has received multiple new Manatee males recently and they already have quite a group, so it seems to me that they will house two separate groups, one bachelor and one breeding.

Looks like it may still be in use after all.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Looks like it may still be in use after all.

Yeah, I saw that post earlier this month too; looks like @lintworm making an educated guess that they might end up with two groups, rather than stating it is indeed the case?

 

[Brum]

looks like @lintworm making an educated guess that they might end up with two groups, rather than stating it is indeed the case?

Indeed, hence the may...