British Isles Cup Redux - League B - Jersey vs Colchester
- Thread starter TeaLovingDave
- Start date
Welfare and conservation are indeed paramount - however, when the discussion specifically pertains to the strengths of a zoological collection in a certain field or category, arguing that a collection which has little-to-nothing to offer in the category should win with a clean slate *because* it has little to nothing to offer and therefore has no shortcomings is significantly more unfair that the randomised selection of categories and zoos which you bemoaned upthread
It's a bit like saying that Highland Wildlife Park is a better zoo for tropical species than Singapore, because HWP would be a terrible place for species adapted to hot climates, but they stick to their strengths and collection focus, and therefore do not keep such species!As for your suggestion that "it seems to me this competition is about adding up the number of species, then modifying the result if there are a few nice enclosures" you obviously didn't see how hotly some of the worldwide cup matches last year were debated, and how near to the wire some of them came! For instance, several individuals (myself included) made a pretty fierce case for Chester being a better zoo in the "Island Species" category than Taronga, on the basis that the former is actively involved in a large range of conservation projects relevant to the category and moreover has a pretty damn good collection of relevant species without having the in-built home turf advantage that the latter collection has being based in Australia.
We lost, but by rather less than you might initially imagine.
The ironic thing is, I'm not even all that keen on Colchester myself
but even so I can say pretty firmly that your automatic assumption that all they can offer is "a couple of zebras shivering in a muddy paddock" in summer and animals "no doubt confined to some dark and cramped stall out of sight" in winter is entirely inaccurate.Actually this post - challenging assumptions and contributing perspectives people might not immediately consider - is *exactly* what the competition is about.
Dave and I can’t control what factors people do/don’t take into account and it’s true that there is a widespread tendency to focus on species counts, but there’s nothing inherent about that approach that makes it the ‘right’ one.
The ironic thing is, I'm not even all that keen on Colchester myself
For instance, here are a few photographs taken in autumn and winter......
That big structure at the rear is the indoor housing for the African hoofstock and other species sharing that paddock, incidentally.
And a bonus one from a different exhibit (for dik-dik) taken in autumn:
...and one summer one (the blue duiker exhibit) because I couldn't find any shots of this exhibit in winter
only the old one which I think was in a different location:Welfare and conservation are indeed paramount - however, when the discussion specifically pertains to the strengths of a zoological collection in a certain field or category, arguing that a collection which has little-to-nothing to offer in the category should win with a clean slate *because* it has little to nothing to offer and therefore has no shortcomings is significantly more unfair that the randomised selection of categories and zoos which you bemoaned upthread
I don’t agree with MRJ’s framing but I think this is a non sequitur. Jersey and Colchester have broadly the same cool temperate climate: I’m sure they’re different, but certainly not different in the way that Highland and Singapore are different. It’s legitimate to say that Jersey not having tropical ungulates is a point in its favour: where the argument breaks down is that they have plenty of tropical species in other taxonomic groups, so it doesn’t follow that their lack of ungulates is a conscious welfare decision (setting aside whether that would be the ‘right’ call).
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Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Why were ungulates / hoofstock never kept in any great numbers at Jersey then?
This would have been primarily down to Durrell's philosophical stance on conservation and not going down the path taken by every other zoo ?
Or was it more the practical considerations of space plus legal restrictions due to what @MRJ has already mentioned ?
Perhaps a mixture of the two factors ?
This would have been primarily down to Durrell's philosophical stance on conservation and not going down the path taken by every other zoo ?
Or was it more the practical considerations of space plus legal restrictions due to what @MRJ has already mentioned ?
Perhaps a mixture of the two factors ?
Perhaps, but arguing that not having ungulates at all - barring the one species, which *is* tropical - is a point in their favour in a ungulate round pushes this too far
that being the point I was trying to make with deliberate hyperbole above.......especially when the argument seems to be framed around innuendos of UK hoofstock collections being inevitably wet, dank and depressing affairs filled with the "usual suspects". Having read his books, I always just got the impression Gerald Durrell wasn't particularly interested in hoofstock
even when discussing species seen "in-situ" he seemed to seldom really touch on them.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Having read his books, I always just got the impression Gerald Durrell wasn't particularly interested in hoofstock
Well, there are a couple that I can remember Durrell writing quite excitedly about in his books regarding early collecting trips to Central Africa and South America's Patagonia, the Pampas and the Chaco.
Species like tapir, guanacos, chevrotain, duiker, peccary, red river hogs (I think he definitely appears to have been fond of these and the suidae too and Jersey zoo appears to never have been without a pig species for too long) and brocket deer.
It's obviously far too long since I read The Whispering Land and The Drunken Forest then! That can be my reading material for when I go to bed
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
It's obviously far too long since I read The Whispering Land and The Drunken Forest then! That can be my reading material for when I go to bed
They are definitely in there in places.
I do remember a chapter in one of his books about Central Africa (can't remember which this was though) where he wrote a lot regarding the beauty and grace of the water chevrotain (and oddly enough his frustrations to try to coax it into eating fish while being filmed).
That said I do get what you mean and I sort of agree.
It does appear that Durrell was more into the weird and wonderful smaller species than the hoofstock. But again I think it is telling that the hoofstock he did show an interest in all seemed to typically tend towards being smaller and cryptic / lesser known species.
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It's a long while since I read the book but, from memory, Durrell writes about filming water chevrotain in A Zoo in My Luggage and it's clear from his writing that Durrell is very fond of this species. Annoyingly, though, he repeatedly describes it as an "antelope".
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Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Yes, that was the one Tim ! Thanks for that, I couldn't remember the title.
Also as I mentioned in the other comments I do remember in his other books about collecting in Africa and Latin America him consistently being overjoyed when caring for infants of pig species like red river hog and bush pig and pig-like species like the peccary.
I watched the Durrell youtube documentary about the pygmy hog ex-situ / in-situ conservation effort last year and it mentioned that Gerald had the pygmy hog in his sights very early on (60's or 70's). This is further indication that he was always interested in the suidae as a family.
Jersey zoo has almost never been without a pig species throughout its history whether these were barbirusa, red river hog or Visayan warty pigs or the aforementioned work over the decades to support the effort of conserving the pygmy hog in India which does say a lot.
Then of course he also seemed to love the tapirs and they also appear heavily in his books about collecting in South America and those about the beginnings of the zoo in general.
Actually, I am arguing that for a large range of tropical animals zoos can provide adequately for their welfare, however this may be difficult for large animals that live in herds. Regarding Jersey as I said they cannot hold bovines legally and so obviously that is not a welfare based decision. However that would not stop me using welfare considerations in my judgement of another zoo.
So at least justice has been done and clearly the better hoofstock zoo has won convincingly despite a few questionable votes and justification for them. Giving Jersey a sympathetic single point for conservation efforts I can just about understand, but giving any more than that against a zoo with 10x the species in mostly acceptable or good enclosures stinks imo! My faith in the competition has been restored!
Jersey drew the wrong category this time and would have lost to Colchester in others too, but this is one Jersey would have lost against any of the other zoos in the contest!
Jersey drew the wrong category this time and would have lost to Colchester in others too, but this is one Jersey would have lost against any of the other zoos in the contest!
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So, what *was* your argument for Jersey being a better zoo for hoofstock then, if it wasn't "I don't think UK zoos can keep hoofstock well, so the fact Jersey don't keep hoofstock makes them better", "I incorrectly think this is an unfair match" or "I have fond memories of studying at Jersey so want it to win", which are the three arguments you seem to have been making throughout this match?
For future reference, we'll be accepting the borderline votes this time, but if we think people are just voting for the collection they prefer without abiding by the rules @CGSwans and myself may have to reassess this going forward.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Carnivores no chance, miscellaneous mammals?!!I think Jersey will kick some serious a** in any other category.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Birds ? primates / prosimians ? amphibians ? reptiles ?
You don't seem to be all that fond of Jersey.
You said it would win in any other category, which it clearly wouldn't! It would stand a good chance on primates against most and birds,maybe ectotherms but that isn't every category!!