Ueno Zoo Ueno Zoo - panda politics discussion

I agree with you, OC.

I consider the Amami rabbit to be my lucky rabbit. I know someone who had/has a little black rabbit with relatively short ears.

The giant panda is now classified as Vulnerable and quite a few zoos keep it.

Does any zoo keep any of the species you listed above?
 
Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
*sigh* :rolleyes:... Why not focus that wasted energy and sentiment on the Ryuku flying fox, Bonin flying fox, Amami rabbit, Iriomote cat etc ?
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Why not do both - try to keep the giant pandas (and the attention of common zoo visitors) and establish a captive population of Rykuku flying foxes by exchanging this species with a similar species of bat that isn't (that much) endangered?
 
Dassie rat said:
Artid has a son
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Alas, the female is now on her own, I guess with the calf.

I stumbled upon this interesting feature on JAZA new policy for re-arranging collections where specifically it is underlined that elephants require a constellation 1.3 at least, whereas penguins should at least have a minimum of 10 birds per collection.

This implementation plan by JAZA has so far been applied to 50+ species, mostly endangered or threatened taxa. Everything from husbandry, enclosure size, animal management et cetera were looked into leading up to minimum standards for these species. The photos below show Malayan tapir and black rhino as examples. Issues of concern that should be dealt with are animal welfare and social stress et cetera. At the end of 2020 around 90 species should have been reviewed. The policy will be rolled out across the entire 148 zoo/aquaria strong membership of JAZA, especially when renovations and/or new breeding plans are made per zoo(s).

Link: 動物に優しい動物園ってどんな場所？　協会が自主規制へ：朝日新聞デジタル
 
@Shirokuma, I do agree with our Brasilian poster friend that Japanese zoos could and should invest more in native species / ex situ conservation.

I just highlighted a fundamental change in JAZA policy right before your post that should have some bearing and significance for future development and zoo improvements. When spec. talking of endangered species I suppose Ryukyu (!!!) flying fox, Amami rabbit and Iriomote cate would get more attention from regional zoo management in future.
 
Dassie rat said:
I agree with you, OC.

I consider the Amami rabbit to be my lucky rabbit. I know someone who had/has a little black rabbit with relatively short ears.

The giant panda is now classified as Vulnerable and quite a few zoos keep it.

Does any zoo keep any of the species you listed above?
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Ryukyu flying fox is at Ueno, Inokashira, and at least 2 zoos in Okinawa I went to. In fact, the Okinawa Children's Zoo and Museum (flagship zoo of the island) keeps 2 subspecies, the Orii and the Daito, although they are mixed in the same aviary, which I dislike. All other places keep solely the Orii.

Hirakawa Zoo in Kyushu has the only captive breeding population of the Amami rabbit, however they are offshow. I emailed them and asked nicely, and they said someday I could go photograph one.
 
Dassie rat said:
I agree with you, OC.

I consider the Amami rabbit to be my lucky rabbit. I know someone who had/has a little black rabbit with relatively short ears.

The giant panda is now classified as Vulnerable and quite a few zoos keep it.

Does any zoo keep any of the species you listed above?
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I think the Amami rabbit is an amazing little creature too, a living fossil no less.

I'm not sure about how commonly kept the species I wrote about are kept ex-situ in Japan but if I remember rightly the rabbit used to be kept at one zoo but I don't think it is anymore.

The flying foxes are kept at a couple of zoos in Japan but probably not in the large colonies of species like the Rodrigues or Livingstones kept in UK and European zoos. Not sure what their breeding success have been but I am going to have a look and see if I can find out.

The Iriomote cat judging by the zoochat gallery is kept by a couple of zoos in Japan too but again I have no idea what breeding success has been like.

zoomaniac said:
Why not do both - try to keep the giant pandas (and the attention of common zoo visitors) and establish a captive population of Rykuku flying foxes by exchanging this species with a similar species of bat that isn't (that much) endangered?
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Not sure I follow what you mean, do you mean to replace a species of megabat that is commonly held in Japanese zoos with the Ryuku or Bonin flying foxes ?

Yes, that could work I suppose, I have no idea whether megabats are commonly kept at Japanese zoos though
 
Shirokuma said:
The two aren't mutually exclusive and having high-profile, popular animals like pandas brings people to the zoo in a way that flying foxes never, ever will.

Plus they have just built a new enclosure.
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No, I agree they are not mutually exclusive and you may be right but I strongly suspect that you are not.

Having worked in a zoo where both pandas and endemic and endangered native species were kept I can tell you that I observed the opposite effect to be true.

There was by comparison very little interest shown by the public towards the native species despite the best efforts of educational staff to generate interest. Whatsmore there was a strong institutional (and political) bias and preference towards the panda which quite frankly verged on the ridiculous.

I'm absolutely sure that the same phenomenon (stupidity) occurs wherever this species is kept in a zoo around the world whether it be Japan or the USA, France, Germany, UK, Mexico etc.

These animals cost an awful lot of money and resources to be maintained by zoos (and space too), the value in terms of conservation of them being held ex-situ outside of China is really very questionable / laughable to say the least.

Meanwhile what are these countries doing in terms of conserving their own native species and raising their profile to the level of charismatic ?

Why not focus on making the Amami rabbit, the Iriomote cat or the Ryuku flying fox an iconic animal of popular culture that is valued and recognized by the public instead of cringeworthily begging China for permission to keep the damn pandas ?
 
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Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
No, I agree they are not mutually exclusive and you may be right but I strongly suspect that you are not.

Having worked in a zoo where both pandas and endemic and endangered native species were kept I can tell you that I observed the opposite effect to be true.

There was by comparison very little interest shown by the public towards the native species despite the best efforts of educational staff to generate interest. Whatsmore there was a strong institutional (and political) bias and preference towards the panda which quite frankly verged on the ridiculous.

I'm absolutely sure that the same phenomenon (stupidity) occurs wherever this species is kept in a zoo around the world whether it be Japan or the USA, France, Germany, UK, Mexico etc.

These animals cost an awful lot of money and resources to be maintained by zoos (and space too), the value in terms of conservation of them being held ex-situ outside of China is really very questionable / laughable to say the least.

Meanwhile what are these countries doing in terms of conserving their own native species and raising their profile to the level of charismatic ?

Why not focus on making the Amami rabbit, the Iriomote cat or the Ryuku flying fox an iconic animal of popular culture that is valued and recognized by the public instead of cringeworthily begging China for permission to keep the damn pandas ?
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One animal that could follow such a formula would be the teporingo/volcano rabbit, which is bred at Higashiyama Zoo as a collaboration with Chapultepec Zoo. Maybe Mexican zoos could set up more populations internationally.
 
RatioTile said:
One animal that could follow such a formula would be the teporingo/volcano rabbit, which is bred at Higashiyama Zoo as a collaboration with Chapultepec Zoo. Maybe Mexican zoos could set up more populations internationally.
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Yes, I know there is / was a strong collaboration between the two zoos regarding the two rabbit species and also I believe researchers from the UNAM university and Japanese research institutes.

I remember this collaboration being research and teporingo / Amami rabbit related too but honestly I was never privy to a huge amount of information about what exactly was going on in that sense.

However, I should say that I personally never thought it was a good idea to send those teporingo to Japan. I think the evidence seems to suggest that the best place to keep and breed the volcano rabbit is in ex-situ captive breeding facilities within the native range and even better within the habitat.

I think that the Amami rabbit might well be able to follow that formula in Japanese zoos though and I can imagine it becoming popular with the public and more culturally iconic too.
 
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Even if Japanese zoos want those species they probably have to jump through a lot of hoops to get their hands on those animals. With the exception of serrows and ptarmigans, there’s a very small amounts of zoos that keep endangered species such as okinawa rail and crested ibis. Heck visitor might not even be able to see native endangered species/designated natural treasures because they ate kept back stage.
 
PossumRoach said:
Even if Japanese zoos want those species they probably have to jump through a lot of hoops to get their hands on those animals. With the exception of serrows and ptarmigans, there’s a very small amounts of zoos that keep endangered species such as okinawa rail and crested ibis. Heck visitor might not even be able to see native endangered species/designated natural treasures because they ate kept back stage.
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Yes, good point actually, I can imagine that the bureaucracy would be very hard to navigate.

Another thing to consider would be whether the species in question would even be suitable for public display and whether this would even be conductive for ex-situ captive breeding purposes (even so it could be argued that there would maybe be educational value for the public to see them though).

Maybe for some species it is the best thing to keep and breed them behind the scenes ? This is certainly what Carl Jones seemed to advocate as being a viable option in his paper on the future of zoos.

I think (just a guess) that species like the Okinawa rail, Iriomote cat and the Anami rabbit would perhaps be a lot more sensitive to stress from being on public display and could be more suited to being kept behind the scenes.

However, megabats like the Bonin and Ryuku flying foxes would probably be far more suited to public display and I imagine would breed readily in these kind of enclosures and like the Livingstone's and Rodrigues fruit bats would make engaging exhibits for visitors.
 
Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
Yes, good point actually, I can imagine that the bureaucracy would be very hard to navigate.

Another thing to consider would be whether the species in question would even be suitable for public display and whether this would even be conductive for ex-situ captive breeding purposes (even so it could be argued that there would maybe be educational value for the public to see them though).

Maybe for some species it is the best thing to keep and breed them behind the scenes ? This is certainly what Carl Jones seemed to advocate as being a viable option in his paper on the future of zoos.

I think (just a guess) that species like the Okinawa rail, Iriomote cat and the Anami rabbit would perhaps be a lot more sensitive to stress from being on public display and could be more suited to being kept behind the scenes.

However, megabats like the Bonin and Ryuku flying foxes would probably be far more suited to public display and I imagine would breed readily in these kind of enclosures and like the Livingstone's and Rodrigues fruit bats would make engaging exhibits for visitors.
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The Okinawa rail is a congener with the Guam rail, which in US zoos is on display.
 
Shirokuma said:
My point exactly, flying foxes won't bring visitors to Ueno Zoo but giant pandas will.
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I didn't imply that flying foxes will bring visitors to Ueno zoo and it isn't as simple as getting visitors through the door I'm afraid @Shirokuma.

It also involves educating visitors about native species and getting them to actually care about their plight and appreciate the endemic biodiversity of Japan otherwise what is the point of a zoo if it isn't educating people or conserving vulnerable and endangered species ?

In the case of the Ryuku and Bonin Island flying foxes in zoos on the larger Japanese islands they are already far from sight and mind to many Japanese as these are mammals native to Okinawa and the Iwo Jima islands.

How can it be expected that anyone will take any interest in them or their plight if a zoo gears visitors attention and centres / focuses it on pandas ?
 
@Shirokuma by the way regarding the Bonin Island flying fox (Pteropus pselaphon) here is a quote from wikipedia (not the greatest source but I'll find better ones shortly) regarding the ex-situ status of the species in Japanese zoos :

"This species has been kept at Tama Zoological Garden in Tokyo in the past. One individual died in 1998 and another in 1999, and it is unclear if the species is still kept there or if there are attempts at a Captive breeding program"

Here again from wikipedia a quote regarding the historic status of the species in the wild :

"They are considered endangered because their extent of occurrence is less than 100 km2 (39 sq mi), their habitat is severely fragmented, and the population is estimated at fewer than 250 mature individuals. In 1969, this species was listed as a Natural Monument of Japan. This law made it illegal to capture or hunt them.[1] The population of bats Chichijima Island was estimated at 150 individuals in 1997, but by 2002, it was estimated at only 65-80 individuals. Possible reasons for their decline include entanglement in agricultural nets and depredation by feral cats.[15] It is speculated that they are threatened by competition with invasive species, including rats, white-eyes, and honey bees.[16]"

Now how on earth can the amount of money spent on a $1m panda rental (£512,000, €646,000) ever be justified (bear in mind that that was the cost in 2008 and it has probably tripled now) given the fraction of a cost it would take to maintain the Bonin Island flying fox ex-situ ?

The answer of course is it never can because it is utter bulls*** and a colossal waste of money and resources that could be better allocated to the conservation of a species which actually is in requirement of it.
 
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