Britain’s tiger kings

I would imagine that Ross Kemp wouldn't look too out of place knuckle walking through those straw filled enclosures.
‘Those straw filled enclosures’ were the scene of ground breaking advances in gorilla husbandry, by what was then a private owner of both great apes and large cats. Indeed, he was a very successful tiger breeder at a time when the species was not commonly bred.
 
How worried should we be about this? Zoos will no doubt be mentioned in a negative light and people often believe everything they see on TV. Hopefully this doesn't put people off visiting zoos when they reopen. Hasn't the zoo community suffered enough recently?
 
‘Those straw filled enclosures’ were the scene of ground breaking advances in gorilla husbandry, by what was then a private owner of both great apes and large cats. Indeed, he was a very successful tiger breeder at a time when the species was not commonly bred.

Once again you have misconstrued / taken offence at my comment when you need not have done / been so defensive.

I am fully aware of the remarkable success that John Aspinall achieved with captive breeding of gorillas and other endangered mammals and actually admire this.

Moreover, I am also aware that he was a private owner early in his career (which does not change my view / stance on private ownership in the 21st century).
 
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Of course this is a take of of the Netflix show, but I would think the difference being where road side zoo and massive cat farms are common knowledge in America. I would think that private owned large exotics or that these types of places, though on a smaller scale even exist in the uk would come to a surprise the the masses. And as for the fokes on here whom know of these places a chance to get a veiw behind closed doors which often provoke chat on here would be a good in site no matter how they are portrayed
 
How worried should we be about this? Zoos will no doubt be mentioned in a negative light and people often believe everything they see on TV. Hopefully this doesn't put people off visiting zoos when they reopen. Hasn't the zoo community suffered enough recently?
I don't think it should be that big of a worry considering it is more talking about private animal ownership and there's enough popular zoo programs on TV anyway.
 
I really don't like the soap opera guy either, but I'll still watch it and I welcome a chance to see this Heythrop place without actually paying to do so. The articles I found about the ITV show, do not paint a picture of the UK having a large number of big cats being kept as pets. The title of the show is misleading and the host is allegedly anti-zoo. Just keep it on mute if you are really concerned about the message you think they want to put out :cool:
 
I really don't like the soap opera guy either, but I'll still watch it and I welcome a chance to see this Heythrop place without actually paying to do so. The articles I found about the ITV show, do not paint a picture of the UK having a large number of big cats being kept as pets. The title of the show is misleading and the host is allegedly anti-zoo. Just keep it on mute if you are really concerned about the message you think they want to put out :cool:

Are people like that ever really "anti" anything ?

It seems to me that they and their broadcasting channels just ride the currents of public opinion and test the waters and then say whatever sentiment is popular with the masses at the time but they don't really have any stance of their own.

I won't be watching anyway as I am in Brazil and can't access UK television.
 
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However, when it comes to mammals such as large or small carnivores and primates (amongst others) I do oppose private ownership because I believe it is drastically different from the examples mentioned above and also because of personal involvement with endangered and critically endangered species as a conservation biologist.

The problem where small carnivores are concerned is that (with a handful of exceptions) public collections are only interested in an ever-narrowing selection of species, and it is the private sector which keeps many species going. Moreover, there have been a number of occasions when populations of species which zoos *were* interested in breeding faltered precisely because the zoo world didn't want to work with private keepers who a) were far ahead in terms of husbandry experience and b) could have contributed fresh blood to the zoo programmes.

For instance, one of the most endangered native European species of small carnivore - surpassed only by European Mink - is the Marbled Polecat (the species in my avatar, as you probably know).... but despite several private collections keeping and breeding the species over the last decade or two, the captive population has dwindled to next-to-nothing due to a combination of mismanagement in some public collections, and a reluctance by others to work alongside the private sector.
 
The problem where small carnivores are concerned is that (with a handful of exceptions) public collections are only interested in an ever-narrowing selection of species, and it is the private sector which keeps many species going. Moreover, there have been a number of occasions when populations of species which zoos *were* interested in breeding faltered precisely because the zoo world didn't want to work with private keepers who a) were far ahead in terms of husbandry experience and b) could have contributed fresh blood to the zoo programmes.

For instance, one of the most endangered native European species of small carnivore - surpassed only by European Mink - is the Marbled Polecat (the species in my avatar, as you probably know).... but despite several private collections keeping and breeding the species over the last decade or two, the captive population has dwindled to next-to-nothing due to a combination of mismanagement in some public collections, and a reluctance by others to work alongside the private sector.
Thank you Dave:)
 
My view is coloured by what is happening here in Brazil with powerful lobbying groups who are currently lobbying the Bolsonaro administration to reverse laws on private ownership of endangered species which will severely impact conservation and set efforts back here by about 30 years.

Good luck, however I suspect Mr Bolsonaro is interested in one thing, and that’s Mr Bolsonaro!
 
The problem where small carnivores are concerned is that (with a handful of exceptions) public collections are only interested in an ever-narrowing selection of species, and it is the private sector which keeps many species going. Moreover, there have been a number of occasions when populations of species which zoos *were* interested in breeding faltered precisely because the zoo world didn't want to work with private keepers who a) were far ahead in terms of husbandry experience and b) could have contributed fresh blood to the zoo programmes.

For instance, one of the most endangered native European species of small carnivore - surpassed only by European Mink - is the Marbled Polecat (the species in my avatar, as you probably know).... but despite several private collections keeping and breeding the species over the last decade or two, the captive population has dwindled to next-to-nothing due to a combination of mismanagement in some public collections, and a reluctance by others to work alongside the private sector.

I fully agree that it is a problem with zoos and the narrowing selection of species which of course prioritizes and has a bias over large carnivores over the smaller and rarer and that the private sector may be in many cases more advanced in the husbandry and breeding of these species than zoos.

I do think what you describe is a problem and something that needs to be rectified within zoos and their management.

Good luck, however I suspect Mr Bolsonaro is interested in one thing, and that’s Mr Bolsonaro!

Thank you ! We will certainly need it this year and all of the zoos here are really trying to push back against this new move as hard as possible.

Of course he is, that is all he has ever been interested in and it doesn't matter who lobbies him as long as they have money and express neoliberal sentiments they will either get their legislation passed or his vocal support.

Thank you Dave:)

I'm not sure you have yet realized this but we are mostly on the same page on this and many other issues and I would rather that you did not react so defensively or misconstrue my comments.
 
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I fully agree that it is a problem with zoos and the narrowing selection of species which of course prioritizes large carnivores over the smaller and rarer and that the private sector may be in many cases more advanced in the husbandry and breeding of these species than zoos.

But even with this acknowledged, you still oppose the idea of the private sector being permitted to keep small carnivores at all, and dismiss it as having no value compared to private aviculture and herpetoculture, per the above quoted statement?
 
Thank you Dave:)
But even with this acknowledged, you still oppose the idea of the private sector being permitted to keep small carnivores at all, and dismiss it as having no value compared to private aviculture and herpetoculture, per the above quoted statement?

I didn't say it has no value and I still oppose it in principle, yes, and believe that it is no substitute for well managed captive breeding programmes in zoos and captive breeding facilities closed to the public.

However, I concede / acknowledge that zoos underperform and are outperformed by some private owners and I believe this highlights wider problems within the zoo industry that need to be addressed.
 
The articles I found about the ITV show, do not paint a picture of the UK having a large number of big cats being kept as pets. The title of the show is misleading

Not that I'll be watching but I think the programme makers probably had to search very hard to find enough candidates e.g. private places keeping big cats, that even vaguely approach the USA 'Tiger King' equivalent, in order to get enough material to make these programmes. Wild animal keeping legislation and culture is rather different over here -as has been pointed out. While to my knowledge Heythrop is really a professional animal training business involving various species, as opposed to a private big cat collection, so that one at least only marginally fits the umbrella they are trying to cast.
 
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The problem where small carnivores are concerned is that (with a handful of exceptions) public collections are only interested in an ever-narrowing selection of species, and it is the private sector which keeps many species going. Moreover, there have been a number of occasions when populations of species which zoos *were* interested in breeding faltered precisely because the zoo world didn't want to work with private keepers who a) were far ahead in terms of husbandry experience and b) could have contributed fresh blood to the zoo programmes.

For instance, one of the most endangered native European species of small carnivore - surpassed only by European Mink - is the Marbled Polecat (the species in my avatar, as you probably know).... but despite several private collections keeping and breeding the species over the last decade or two, the captive population has dwindled to next-to-nothing due to a combination of mismanagement in some public collections, and a reluctance by others to work alongside the private sector.

Let me begin by saying I do not have a view of stamping out the responsible private ownership of exotic small carnivores but for the sake of argument I'll explain why I am opposed in principle to the keeping of small carnivores and private ownership.

Firstly there is the propensity of many small carnivores to either escape or be intentionally released from captivity and to establish themselves in the wild as incredibly destructive invasive species with regards to native fauna. For example, one of the reasons why the North American raccoon has established itself in Central and Southern Europe was partly due to it being kept in private collections as a pet (along of course with fur farms).

In the UK you have increasing numbers of people keeping and breeding small carnivore species like raccoons, skunks, coatis, raccoon dogs. There apparently have been a number of escapes of these animals and there are also believed to be small populations living in the wild. It has apparently been registered as a potential problem by your environmental governmental department DEFRA which suggests that there is a real risk of these becoming invasive species.

Secondly, I don't doubt that the private sector have had more success with small carnivores such as the marbled polecat in terms of husbandry than zoos and I believe that this is illustrative of the lack of interest shown by zoos towards smaller mammals in general and the bias towards larger more "charismatic" species. From reading online issues of the magazine "Zooquaria" I gather that there have been attempts by EAZA to try to encourage more interest in keeping small carnivores such as the European mink and marbled polecats in zoos. It would seem that zoos are still somewhat behind the times when it comes to this and perhaps do not view these animals as viable because their cryptic behaviour make them "poor exhibits" or they do not draw crowds.

Regarding the lack of collaboration between zoos and the private sector I can only say that this is a shame if different stakeholders that ostensibly should have a commitment to ex-situ conservation cannot come together and cooperate for the benefit of a threatened species (regardless of what is felt towards private ownership). I don't know why exactly this has happened because I am not familiar with the situation of marbled polecats in UK / Europe but perhaps it is due to institutional arrogance on the part of zoos and if that is the case then it is not good at all.

That said, on the subject of the marbled polecat and ferrets on general I would say that ex-situ conservation (whether by zoos or private individuals) through captive breeding programmes is only part of the solution here. Any ex-situ actions obviously need to be strongly integrated with in-situ actions within the range countries that address the drivers of its decline in the wild (use of pesticides and habitat destruction of the Eurasian steppes for agricultural conversion) because it won't matter if they are kept by every major zoo in Europe if they are functionally extinct in the wild.

For example, the famous and highly successful black footed ferret conservation programme in the USA (which didn't as far as I'm aware involve private owners) managed to bring the species back from the brink due to well managed and organized breeding programes within zoos and captive breeding facilities and in-situ actions such as reintroduction to the praries.
 
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