Mai Thai
Well-Known Member
Yes it does!!!!!!!!!!!
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Because they are a superb environmental journalism site (the best IMO) and like to present topical subjects through articles that confront and challenge bias.
They publish articles that present all kinds of different viewpoints and some that are very much pro-zoo and others that are more anti-zoo which should be interesting to their readership in order to inform their own views.
Lets Hope it is Not true.
Mai Thai
Well-Known Member
It has been confirmed by Chester Zoo that it is not true.
I think it should be the UK government to deny it.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Why did the Daily Mail writer do that then ?
Has she spoken out or addressed the issue of putting out misinformation since ?
She seemed to be very proud of her articles when they were released but I wonder if she has now caused problems for herself ?
Has she spoken out or addressed the issue of putting out misinformation since ?
She seemed to be very proud of her articles when they were released but I wonder if she has now caused problems for herself ?
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
A quick glance at her Twitter page answers my questions.
Apparently not.
Lots of retweets which indicate Tory sympathies (including by Zac Goldsmith) and some suggestions that she knows Carrie Symonds and is on friendly terms with the Aspinall parks (possibly just me reading into things not sure).
No mention that she got her information wrong for her piece on the future of elephants in UK zoos.
Oh and more about the existential anguish of dropping a scented candle on her toe and her dislike of Megan Markhle.
Apparently not.
Lots of retweets which indicate Tory sympathies (including by Zac Goldsmith) and some suggestions that she knows Carrie Symonds and is on friendly terms with the Aspinall parks (possibly just me reading into things not sure).
No mention that she got her information wrong for her piece on the future of elephants in UK zoos.
Oh and more about the existential anguish of dropping a scented candle on her toe and her dislike of Megan Markhle.
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Has anybody not noticed that Zac Goldsmith has only ever said that the government has no plans to ban the KEEPING of elephants in the UK?BIAZA has published the response from Zac Goldsmith.
The Daily Mail [and others] have also suggested that the government plans to ban the IMPORT of elephants into the UK. His Lordship has not commented on that proposition.
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taun
Well-Known Member
ssshh... Tories smoke screen tactics are working for once...
In Chester's statement they criticise the practice of anonymous briefings with reference to the original article, which I think is significant.
There is something of a straw man argument here, where a journalist (briefed or otherwise), and their editor make a sensational headline about banning elephants when that's the most far-fetched option. Goldsmith then only responds to this specifically and avoids stating if there would be anything resembling a de facto ban, such as a moratorium on imports or breeding, deferring responsibility to a committee to make recommendations.
Despite neither holding elected public office, both Goldsmith and Symonds are arguably in positions of significant influence on this subject. With both having had roles at the John Aspinall Foundation (his brother, a minister at DEFRA, and half-brother are still current trustees I believe), this becomes something of a nexus of power at the very time the organisation's chair is talking about rewilding their elephant herd. The irony is Howletts is the only really successful elephant group the UK has had. Chester may have made heroic efforts into research around EEHCV, but to the general public, or MPs or lords considering a bill, the level of infant mortality both here and at Whipsnade would I think weigh more heavily in their minds when thinking about this subject.
I've just read through Damian Aspinall's 2020 thread. He has publicly stated that government should intervene more around captive animals, and at the same time he has expressed a wish on here to at least partially rewild the foundation's elephants. It's possible the youngest generation of calves are not fully 'owned' by JAF given they were sired by a bull from another zoo, so there could be legal challenges, but even with this once these three bulls reach an age they can move back into the EEP this would become a live issue once more. I imagine the elephants are regarded as non-subspecific hybrids by Aspinall, but it seems there is still a desire to move them to a range country situation.
Admittedly I don't know what the balance of power looks like at JAF, and whether Aspinall's was able to push through a halt to breeding (something I disagree strongly with) or a plan to relocate the herd abroad to a semi-wild state (something I have no issue with aside from the risks), but it would seem any changes to regulations, even
raising minimum standards on indoor housing that would put Howletts in breach of these, would serve to build a public case for their elephants to be repatriated in some form, and act as a driver beyond Aspinall's own desire to undertake what would be a severely risky move, as virtually every member of the herd has only ever known Howletts and has never set foot in a crate.
I don't think the UK has done well enough with elephants sadly, not through lack of trying, to prevent any attempt by government to regulate them out of existence. It just remains to be seen whether the Kept Animals Bill is the vehicle for it. Given the recent deaths at Noah's Ark and news today of the death of a cow at 28 at West Midland Safari Park (both in some of the most modern facilities we have) I don't think there would be much opposition in parliament or the media to any move to pause or end elephant breeding in this country.
There is something of a straw man argument here, where a journalist (briefed or otherwise), and their editor make a sensational headline about banning elephants when that's the most far-fetched option. Goldsmith then only responds to this specifically and avoids stating if there would be anything resembling a de facto ban, such as a moratorium on imports or breeding, deferring responsibility to a committee to make recommendations.
Despite neither holding elected public office, both Goldsmith and Symonds are arguably in positions of significant influence on this subject. With both having had roles at the John Aspinall Foundation (his brother, a minister at DEFRA, and half-brother are still current trustees I believe), this becomes something of a nexus of power at the very time the organisation's chair is talking about rewilding their elephant herd. The irony is Howletts is the only really successful elephant group the UK has had. Chester may have made heroic efforts into research around EEHCV, but to the general public, or MPs or lords considering a bill, the level of infant mortality both here and at Whipsnade would I think weigh more heavily in their minds when thinking about this subject.
I've just read through Damian Aspinall's 2020 thread. He has publicly stated that government should intervene more around captive animals, and at the same time he has expressed a wish on here to at least partially rewild the foundation's elephants. It's possible the youngest generation of calves are not fully 'owned' by JAF given they were sired by a bull from another zoo, so there could be legal challenges, but even with this once these three bulls reach an age they can move back into the EEP this would become a live issue once more. I imagine the elephants are regarded as non-subspecific hybrids by Aspinall, but it seems there is still a desire to move them to a range country situation.
Admittedly I don't know what the balance of power looks like at JAF, and whether Aspinall's was able to push through a halt to breeding (something I disagree strongly with) or a plan to relocate the herd abroad to a semi-wild state (something I have no issue with aside from the risks), but it would seem any changes to regulations, even
raising minimum standards on indoor housing that would put Howletts in breach of these, would serve to build a public case for their elephants to be repatriated in some form, and act as a driver beyond Aspinall's own desire to undertake what would be a severely risky move, as virtually every member of the herd has only ever known Howletts and has never set foot in a crate.
I don't think the UK has done well enough with elephants sadly, not through lack of trying, to prevent any attempt by government to regulate them out of existence. It just remains to be seen whether the Kept Animals Bill is the vehicle for it. Given the recent deaths at Noah's Ark and news today of the death of a cow at 28 at West Midland Safari Park (both in some of the most modern facilities we have) I don't think there would be much opposition in parliament or the media to any move to pause or end elephant breeding in this country.
Another irony is that while the African elephants at Howletts do represent the most successful Elephant herd in the UK, their efforts with Asian elephants at Port Lypme were as notably unsuccessful, and hampered by similar problems as experienced by zoos elsewhere. Their final response to failure was to disband the group. So any future relocation of their current herd at Howletts would not be without precedent for them, albeit for a different reason and with a different outcome. .
Given importation and breeding bans were mentioned in the article, I would imagine that BIAZA asked about this when they met with him (as mentioned in the letter).
I do think a lot of people seem to be a tad fixated on the claims made by this article being true - when, based on the evidence, it seems that they are not.
And... not to be rude, @Ex situ, but a lot of what you've said does come off as conspiracy theory-ing - if Aspinall wanted to rewild his elephant herd, there are easier ways of ensuring he could do it.
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Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
It does sound a bit like a conspiracy theory I agree.
But I don't blame ex-situ and others for thinking along those lines as there are a lot of reasons for people who enjoy seeing elephants kept in zoos to have suspicion.
Damian does seem to have friends both in high places and in government positions ( I mean the head of communications of the Aspinall parks is the wife of the prime minister of GB afterall).
Moreover he is a very outspoken critic of zoos and has mentioned before his intentions to bring about reforms to the zoo world in general that are in line with his own beliefs.
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I also think some people are arguing semantics a bit - a breeding and importation ban is exactly what a "ban on keeping elephants in the UK" would entail.
So when Goldsmith said "we have no plans to ban the keeping of elephants in the UK", he's basically saying "no importation/breeding ban". He's basically saying "we're waiting for the EWG report and that's what our recommendations will be founded on."
I also find it greatly unlikely that the Elephant Welfare Group's report is going to advocate a phase-out in UK zoos - given the EWG is a collaboration between BIAZA and DEFRA, there's nobody on the group who could push it towards such a bent.
Here is the 5-year-executive summary for reference:
Elephant Welfare Group 5 Year Report Executive Summary (1).pdf
So when Goldsmith said "we have no plans to ban the keeping of elephants in the UK", he's basically saying "no importation/breeding ban". He's basically saying "we're waiting for the EWG report and that's what our recommendations will be founded on."
I also find it greatly unlikely that the Elephant Welfare Group's report is going to advocate a phase-out in UK zoos - given the EWG is a collaboration between BIAZA and DEFRA, there's nobody on the group who could push it towards such a bent.
Here is the 5-year-executive summary for reference:
Elephant Welfare Group 5 Year Report Executive Summary (1).pdf
taun
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't trust anything this UK government say, tbh wouldn't trust any government until we have confirmation about the review and the outcomes.
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To be fair you're right, it does come off as slightly conspiratorial. Being a bit clearer, I don't think Aspinall requires cover of any kind to embark upon returning megafauna to range countries, given this is central to the work of JAF. In the 2020 thread he posted on (where I think it was confirmed as him - the thread is still up), he mentioned several times an imminent rewilding plan for the elephant herd and a halt to breeding. I just think there's a synergy to this where some events might accelerate or facilitate others more easily, rather than a conspiracy to enact a process that would otherwise have been impossible.
I agree to an extent, but these reports aren't binding. EWG are a stakeholder that have been commissioned to produce evidence-based findings, so can make recommendations based on that evidence but those findings can still be scrutinised. It may be unorthodox for government to do make any real departures from what's presented to them but this is a government that doesn't always listen to recommendations on much bigger issues.
I don't really enjoy seeing elephants in zoos (in the traditional sense) but I do enjoy witnessing those elephants that remain in captivity begin to form cohesive, branched, matrilineal herds. Watching a large, multi-generational, related group is a wholly different experience to seeing unrelated animals in a captive setting. So anything that may affect the course of that is of interest to me.
It was real shame, given this was pioneering work for the time, but yes there were a lot of losses. At least there is one surviving matriline from there, and of course the Bull Bindu went on to be very successful at Köln. I've never known anywhere since that had so many stillbirths attributed to the virus, and wonder if this was the only factor.
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I believe the final straw was the death of the one young male they bred (forget his name now) who did survive and was two or three years old when he succumbed to EEHV.
I agree that if the JAF wish to go ahead with a reintroduction/phase-out of their African Elephant group, it won't depend on any other outside influences for the go
-ahead. They will just do it. But they might then flag it as an example of what can be done and why other zoos shouldn't be keeping elephants.
Not particularly related to this but I have always been confused about the JAF stance on 'zoos' in general. They outwardly decry them but have long been involved with animal transfers/exchanges (particularly gorillas) to other collections when it benefits them to do so, e.g. placing of surplus males.
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I think in years to come (and an EEHV breakthrough willing) these will be the only sort of groups seen in our zoos and only a few places will have them- Whipsnade, Woburn, Chester, Blackpool and Dublin with Asian, Colchester(?) and West Midlands(?) (and Howletts if they still had them) with Africans. Noah's Ark...?
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Yes I can totally understand the enjoyment you experience in seeing these herds as they are indeed fascinating animals.
Do you have a link for this?
There's not much backbench pressure for them not to listen to the recommendations - among the backbenchers (and the opposition), elephant captivity isn't a big issue.