View on keeping cetaceans in captivity?

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

What a shame that, after specifically mentioning the number of ways that cetacean captivity changed people's opinions and had a global effect, you still insist on parroting the idea that it's a "US-centric" phenomenon. And again, I'm well aware of the indigenous peoples' views of orcas, however, I specified, multiple times over, that my comment applied to the general public, versus the subset of the population that hold orcas in significant cultural esteem.

As said previously I am not invested in the debate on cetaceans in captivity and I'll put it in even blunter terms : I couldn't care less.

My irritation at your comment is more about your lack of awareness towards the rest of the world.

Next time specify in your comment that you are referring to the population of the USA instead of giving the impression that you are ignoring the rest of humanity across the world and millennia and millennia of human history.

Also spare a thought for the original inhabitants of your own and the neighbouring country to the North for whom the orca was culturally important for thousands of years before "free willy" jumped through a hoop or balanced a basketball on his nose and indeed still is.

 

[Merintia]

They need a lot of space and money, while being usless for protecting tgeir wild populations. And draining money need for both conservation projects and increasing the care of animals allready in captivity.

So basically like a ton of other species kept in zoos?

 

[Westcoastperson]

all cetaceans travel long distances that could never be managed in captivity.

That’s the funny thing this is just wrong. First of all it’s a claim that needs evidence, second of all it’s a false statement. There are plenty of coastal cetacean species that don’t travel long distances. I will use myself as a first person source, my town has a local pod of 13 bottle nose dolphins that live in about a 2-mile area and stay in that area. They travel back and forth through the area in the same style any captive animal could do. With that whose to say things like underwater treadmills, like the ones planned for the blue world project, can’t be used for captive cetaceans?

 

[Echobeast]

As said previously I am not invested in the debate on cetaceans in captivity and I'll put it in even blunter terms : I couldn't care less.

My irritation at your comment is more about your lack of awareness towards the rest of the world.

Next time specify in your comment that you are referring to the population of the USA instead of giving the impression that you are ignoring the rest of humanity across the world and millennia and millennia of human history.

Also spare a thought for the original inhabitants of your own and the neighbouring country to the North for whom the orca was culturally important for thousands of years before "free willy" jumped through a hoop or balanced a basketball on his nose and indeed still is.

Just because someone doesn’t mention an aspect of reality doesn’t mean they are ignorant. They clearly stated that they are aware so they are not being ignorant nor pushing a US centric point of view. The views of the native cultures for the sake of the argument being made is not relevant as they are solely mentioning the opinions and actual actions made by governments towards orcas before the popularization of them in captivity in marine parks. It is not necessary to mention the exceptions of the argument if they are not relevant to the point being made. Your irritation solely comes from your impression of their comment not anything they actually said. This is a forum. It is impossible to mention everything nor is it necessary.

 

[GiratinaIsGod]

So basically like a ton of other species kept in zoos?

even with animals like great apes and elephants, the costs are much lowe. While they could atleast in theory be used as a security for the wild populations. Unlike dolphins

 

[Batto]

While they could atleast in theory be used as a security for the wild populations. Unlike dolphins

Why shouldn't an ex Situ breeding program for dolphins not work?

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Just because someone doesn’t mention an aspect of reality doesn’t mean they are ignorant. They clearly stated that they are aware so they are not being ignorant nor pushing a US centric point of view. The views of the native cultures for the sake of the argument being made is not relevant as they are solely mentioning the opinions and actual actions made by governments towards orcas before the popularization of them in captivity in marine parks. It is not necessary to mention the exceptions of the argument if they are not relevant to the point being made. Your irritation solely comes from your impression of their comment not anything they actually said. This is a forum. It is impossible to mention everything nor is it necessary.

It is the way it was written in it's wording that I found ignorant.

Shell heart stated that orcas and dolphins were seen as pests and not valued prior to being kept at SeaWorld.

As I stated before the most prudent thing would have been for him to have written that these animals had no cultural significance and were viewed as vermin in the twentieth century USA and that he was referring to a US context.

The way he wrote implies (perhaps unintentionally) that this was the case globally across epochs and cultures.

Again as I stated before that is false and ignores archeological and anthropological evidence and current cultural traditions from all over the planet from Europe to Asia to Oceania and North and South America.

Whether intended or not such statements give the impression that some Americans believe that the rest of the world and it's peoples and cultures and world history are an irrelevant afterthought if even considered at all because the world revolves around the USA.

It is a point relevant specifically to his comment made that I felt and do still feel is pertinent which is why I wrote it.

 

[Merintia]

even with animals like great apes and elephants, the costs are much lowe. While they could atleast in theory be used as a security for the wild populations. Unlike dolphins

Reintroduction is already being done with Finless Porpoise, so other species can be use as back up populations too. And even if that wasn´t the case, educate people on them (as other people already pointed before) is also a way to protect them.

 

[Shellheart]

As said previously I am not invested in the debate on cetaceans in captivity and I'll put it in even blunter terms : I couldn't care less.

My irritation at your comment is more about your lack of awareness towards the rest of the world.

Next time specify in your comment that you are referring to the population of the USA instead of giving the impression that you are ignoring the rest of humanity across the world and millennia and millennia of human history.

Also spare a thought for the original inhabitants of your own and the neighbouring country to the North for whom the orca was culturally important for thousands of years before "free willy" jumped through a hoop or balanced a basketball on his nose and indeed still is.

I must say I find this comment especially irritating because of the lack of reading comprehension on your part. Nothing in any of my replies to you was arguing for or against cetaceans in captivity, so it's a little odd you keep saying you don't care. It really indicates to me that you didn't actually read the vast majority of what I wrote. In fact, I backed up my claims repeatedly, which you have failed to do. First, you keep referring to my "US-centric comment", which was largely based on Canada, as a matter of fact but also applies to a number of other non-United States countries. You keep insisting on referring to the original inhabitants, but again I feel like I have to remind you that the original inhabitants of both the US and Canada are not representative of either country's entire population, which is why the governments of both countries had officially considered orcas a pest species. I have to wonder if you're being intentionally obtuse at this point, as there are only so many times I can repeat myself.

"The way he wrote implies (perhaps unintentionally) that this was the case globally across epochs and cultures" I must say, this might be the most foolish possible takeaway from my comment. Did I, at any point, write that "cetaceans were globally reviled throughout time and history"? No, in fact, I did not. Perhaps spend more time responding to the comments available than the strawmen you build in your head and you might come across as less insufferable.

 

[Ebirah766]

Wow, this is a mess.

My thoughts are: Baleen whales should never be in captivity. They are simply too large to feasibly hold. Toothed whales, except for sperm whales and beaked whales, are fair game.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

I must say I find this comment especially irritating because of the lack of reading comprehension on your part. Nothing in any of my replies to you was arguing for or against cetaceans in captivity, so it's a little odd you keep saying you don't care. It really indicates to me that you didn't actually read the vast majority of what I wrote. In fact, I backed up my claims repeatedly, which you have failed to do. First, you keep referring to my "US-centric comment", which was largely based on Canada, as a matter of fact but also applies to a number of other non-United States countries. You keep insisting on referring to the original inhabitants, but again I feel like I have to remind you that the original inhabitants of both the US and Canada are not representative of either country's entire population, which is why the governments of both countries had officially considered orcas a pest species. I have to wonder if you're being intentionally obtuse at this point, as there are only so many times I can repeat myself.

"The way he wrote implies (perhaps unintentionally) that this was the case globally across epochs and cultures" I must say, this might be the most foolish possible takeaway from my comment. Did I, at any point, write that "cetaceans were globally reviled throughout time and history"? No, in fact, I did not. Perhaps spend more time responding to the comments available than the strawmen you build in your head and you might come across as less insufferable.

You did not write that explicitly but your wording and omission implied that this was a view in a global context.

Lol dude I won't prolong this anymore as I am finding you tedious too.

Protip: next time just make sure to mention that you are referring to the US and non indigenous Canadian population and not the rest of the world and human history.

Have a great day buddy.

 

[Westcoastperson]

Wow, this is a mess.

My thoughts are: Baleen whales should never be in captivity. They are simply too large to feasibly hold. Toothed whales, except for sperm whales and beaked whales, are fair game.

I only see one exception to your first bit. Rescue and release whales, the best example is JJ the grey whale who I feel like I talk about every time this topic comes up but I will explain it again. JJ was a Grey Whale calf who was beached and rescues by SeaWorld San Diego. They exhibited her in one of the main Orca pools for people to see (she wasn't with the Orcas) and properly bottle-fed her. They taught her Grey Whale feeding techniques and played local Grey Whale calls for her release. So they released her when the whales were migrating back up north and she survived and is still alive today. The takeaway is we have successfully held baleen whales in these types of situations before and I believe if more coastal aquariums can prepare themselves for possible stranding events we can properly educate the public while helping more stranded animals. Also scientifically having these setups helps us learn more about stranded whales, much of what we know about Grey Whales today comes from scientist observations of JJ.
Also, are you against beaked whales and Baleen whales for size or for other reasons? because if it's just for size reasons the minke and pygmy whales would be fine and most beaked whales fit the general Orca size.

 

[Echobeast]

@Onychorhynchus coronatus Let’s go through this.

On top of that, the animals still function as "ambassadors". Before orcas were kept in captivity they were considered a pest species, and the military used them for strafing runs. It wasn't until marine parks came along that people actually appreciated orcas, or really most cetacean species, as even other dolphins were considered a pest species to fishermen. Not to mention the obvious fact that some of the money people pay to visit these facilities to see cetaceans goes back to the facility's conservation or rescue programs.

This is the quote that originally sparked your replies. No where in here does it say anything about native cultures nor is there an implication that they are ignorant to the significance to cetaceans in native cultures. No where previously in this thread were native cultures mentioned so I do not know how people would get the implication that this quote is talking about that. The lack of stating such is not ignorance. That is ridiculous. @Shellheart stated that they are not ignorant of those facts. Maybe it’s time to drop that and admit that you misinterpreted it.

But what I was getting at was more a rebuttal of Shell hearts suggestion that there was no cultural salience towards dolphins and orcas until these arrived at SeaWorld which is just a ridiculously myopic and USA centric statement.

@Shellheart never suggested this. Please point to the quote where they said this or even implied it. They mentioned and gave examples of governmental action against these species which is absolutely true and these governmental actions didn’t end until the popularization of orcas and other dolphins in captivity.

I wasn't actually arguing in favour or against the argument I was merely calling out your US centric view and cultural ignorance.

In their replies they have shown that this is not a US centric view. Also SeaWorld is a US based series of parks so any thread mentioning orcas in captivity is going to have a slight lean on US attitudes towards cetaceans in captivity.

Rather my point was against the assertion that this was the pivotal moment that homo sapiens began to appreciate the intelligence of dolphins and orcas and attributed cultural significance to them.

It wasn’t really an assertion more like just a rhetorical statement to make their point. Culture never really came up.

That kind of "argument" or assertion based on US exceptionalism is such a load of bull **** and so ignorant of world history too.

No US exceptionalism argument was made? Maybe you should calm down a bit before attacking someone for arguments they are not making. Especially when we are trying to keep the discussion civil.

It is the way it was written in it's wording that I found ignorant.

You may be the only one that took it that way. And if so maybe you should ask them if that’s the way they intended it before attacking them next time.

Shell heart stated that orcas and dolphins were seen as pests and not valued prior to being kept at SeaWorld.

True fact. For many governments this is 100% true and not a point to be attacked because they didn’t go through every single culture that has views on cetaceans.

As I stated before the most prudent thing would have been for him to have written that these animals had no cultural significance and were viewed as vermin in the twentieth century USA and that he was referring to a US context.

That’s not really a reasonable ask to say that they need to clarify every point of view. Especially when the topic of native cultures was not brought up until you mentioned it. Also again it’s not solely a US thing and they mentioned specific examples of the Canadian government.

The way he wrote implies (perhaps unintentionally) that this was the case globally across epochs and cultures.

Then apologize for interpreting it wrong. They have stated multiple times that that was not what they were implying.

Again as I stated before that is false and ignores archeological and anthropological evidence and current cultural traditions from all over the planet from Europe to Asia to Oceania and North and South America.

Not really ignoring it when it has little to do with the point being made. Which was that there was 100% an effort to exterminate whales and dolphins as competition, pests, and fear by relatively modern governments and that did not change until cetaceans were common in marine parks. Whether there is causation there is yet to be proven.

Whether intended or not such statements give the impression that some Americans believe that the rest of the world and it's peoples and cultures and world history are an irrelevant afterthought if even considered at all because the world revolves around the USA.

I don’t think any one on this forum is intentionally making these arguments. Cetaceans in captivity arguments are always going to involve a heavy US bias because SeaWorld and Miami Seaquarium are consistently attacked for keeping orcas and are usually brought up frequently in these threads.

I know you’re more reasonable than this. I suggest dropping it as you’ve been shown to have misinterpreted their arguments.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

@Onychorhynchus coronatus Let’s go through this.



This is the quote that originally sparked your replies. No where in here does it say anything about native cultures nor is there an implication that they are ignorant to the significance to cetaceans in native cultures. No where previously in this thread were native cultures mentioned so I do not know how people would get the implication that this quote is talking about that. The lack of stating such is not ignorance. That is ridiculous. @Shellheart stated that they are not ignorant of those facts. Maybe it’s time to drop that and admit that you misinterpreted it.



@Shellheart never suggested this. Please point to the quote where they said this or even implied it. They mentioned and gave examples of governmental action against these species which is absolutely true and these governmental actions didn’t end until the popularization of orcas and other dolphins in captivity.



In their replies they have shown that this is not a US centric view. Also SeaWorld is a US based series of parks so any thread mentioning orcas in captivity is going to have a slight lean on US attitudes towards cetaceans in captivity.



It wasn’t really an assertion more like just a rhetorical statement to make their point. Culture never really came up.



No US exceptionalism argument was made? Maybe you should calm down a bit before attacking someone for arguments they are not making. Especially when we are trying to keep the discussion civil.



You may be the only one that took it that way. And if so maybe you should ask them if that’s the way they intended it before attacking them next time.



True fact. For many governments this is 100% true and not a point to be attacked because they didn’t go through every single culture that has views on cetaceans.



That’s not really a reasonable ask to say that they need to clarify every point of view. Especially when the topic of native cultures was not brought up until you mentioned it. Also again it’s not solely a US thing and they mentioned specific examples of the Canadian government.



Then apologize for interpreting it wrong. They have stated multiple times that that was not what they were implying.



Not really ignoring it when it has little to do with the point being made. Which was that there was 100% an effort to exterminate whales and dolphins as competition, pests, and fear by relatively modern governments and that did not change until cetaceans were common in marine parks. Whether there is causation there is yet to be proven.



I don’t think any one on this forum is intentionally making these arguments. Cetaceans in captivity arguments are always going to involve a heavy US bias because SeaWorld and Miami Seaquarium are consistently attacked for keeping orcas and are usually brought up frequently in these threads.

I know you’re more reasonable than this. I suggest dropping it as you’ve been shown to have misinterpreted their arguments.

I've already stated I would drop it and thank you for considering me to be reasonable as I am and in fact I believe I am being reasonable even now.

No he didn't mention native or other cultures or epochs in his comment and just to clarify indeed that was actually what my point was about.

The omission of ample examples of cultures both from around the world and North American indigenous views on cetaceans which are nuanced and complex.

Many of such relationships are (and were in the case of ancient civilization) not framed around a narrative of pest species that must be controlled but based on totemic significance and commensalism and tolerance and respect and awe for a fellow predator of fish and / or seal (or a noble adversary or prey).

Many of these existed long before SeaWorld in some cases millennia before and some indeed still exist today and are vibrant traditions still visible.

I conceded that he may not have meant for what he wrote to have been read in that way.

However that is how a lot of people would read it because he did not preface his comment that he was referring to the population of the USA and by extension this read as if it referred to a global reality.

I was reminding shell heart that the reality is much wider and that love and respect and awe of orca and dolphins predate SeaWorld and the USA as a sovereign nation by thousands of years.

Anyway water under the bridge.

 

[Ebirah766]

I only see one exception to your first bit. Rescue and release whales, the best example is JJ the grey whale who I feel like I talk about every time this topic comes up but I will explain it again. JJ was a Grey Whale calf who was beached and rescues by SeaWorld San Diego. They exhibited her in one of the main Orca pools for people to see (she wasn't with the Orcas) and properly bottle-fed her. They taught her Grey Whale feeding techniques and played local Grey Whale calls for her release. So they released her when the whales were migrating back up north and she survived and is still alive today. The takeaway is we have successfully held baleen whales in these types of situations before and I believe if more coastal aquariums can prepare themselves for possible stranding events we can properly educate the public while helping more stranded animals. Also scientifically having these setups helps us learn more about stranded whales, much of what we know about Grey Whales today comes from scientist observations of JJ.
Also, are you against beaked whales and Baleen whales for size or for other reasons? because if it's just for size reasons the minke and pygmy whales would be fine and most beaked whales fit the general Orca size.

The reason why I am against beaked whales in captivity is because they live in conditions which would be nigh-impossible to recreate in captivity on such a large scale. They also travel HUGE distances from the bottom of the sea to the surface, which would be impossible to recreate. There's no reason for them to be in captivity either, they're doing just fine in the wild.

 

[Jurek7]

Sunny did not make a good impression by making argument ad nauseam: bringing a false argument again and again. Somebody even written a booklet to avoid rebuking false arguments. And yes, I linked it more than once already, too:

https://www.loroparque.com/pdf/Encyclopedia_of_False_Arguments_Against_Keeping_MarineMammals_under_Human Care_Ene_2021.pdf

 

[ThylacineAlive]

even with animals like great apes and elephants, the costs are much lowe. While they could atleast in theory be used as a security for the wild populations. Unlike dolphins

Captive elephants will likely never act as an assurance population for endangered wild elephants.

Had it not been for the extreme backlash from the AR lobby and the bad luck the eventual project saw right at the beginning, it's very likely that a captive program for the Vaquita would have proved essential for saving the now-doomed species had exact captive breeding requirements been worked out.

~Thylo

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Had it not been for the extreme backlash from the AR lobby and the bad luck the eventual project saw right at the beginning

And, of course, the fact the project was left until it was far, far too late anyway because of the pressure from the anti-zoo lobby and resulting hesitancy to do anything.....

 

[ThylacineAlive]

And, of course, the fact the project was left until it was far, far too late anyway because of the pressure from the anti-zoo lobby and resulting hesitancy to do anything.....

And now here we are with the Vaquita... I'm sure the anti-zoo lobby is patting themselves on the back for saving yet another species from an existence in "prison".

~Thylo

 

[Westcoastperson]

And now here we are with the Vaquita... I'm sure the anti-zoo lobby is patting themselves on the back for saving yet another species from an existence in "prison".

~Thylo

Wait I always took it as zoos and aquariums were too afraid to enter the program was it that or was there active pushback from the AR lobby?