Is this orangutan Sumatran?

T

tapanuliensis

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I’ve been wondering about this Sumatran female orangutan named Dodie, currently at Gladys Porter zoo. To me, she looks Bornean or at least hybrid, and her son Kumar looks kind of hybrid too. The studbook states she’s Sumatran, and has one full sibling- Sally. Sally looks fully Sumatran to me, completely different from Dodie, and I know their mother Susie is fully Sumatran. Could it be true that maybe the studbook has gotten Dodie’s father wrong, and that he’s actually a Bornean? I looked up which other males were at the zoo Brownsville where she was born (at the time), and there were two 11 year old Bornean males. This was in 1977 where it’s likely the species could’ve shared enclosures, and the males were still young and likely unflanged so may have shared an enclosure with other males. Thoughts? Am I overthinking? I'm usually quite confident in recognising which species is which and I'm not claiming to certainly know more than the zoo itself, but I guess it's a possibility that it may be incorrect. Not too sure if this is the place to ask but I wanted to see other people's thoughts.
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xt=yaia said:
I know they're said to be Sumatran according to studbook data, I'm just questioning if that info is correct as she doesn't look Sumatran, as I wrote in the post. I don't want to come across as saying I know more than them though, I'm just interested.
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Yeah, I deleted the original post because I wasn’t too positive myself. Orangutans (and gorillas) in general are hard to differentiate between species, since there are not a lot of physical differences. Based on the wider face and longer body hair, I’m assuming Sumatran but I too am not %100 sure.
 
Sphenisciologist said:
Yeah, I deleted the original post because I wasn’t too positive myself. Orangutans (and gorillas) in general are hard to differentiate between species, since there are not a lot of physical differences. Based on the wider face and longer body hair, I’m assuming Sumatran but I too am not %100 sure.
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In my opinion, Borneans and Sumatrans are quite easy to tell apart, and Borneans usually have the wider faces (also usually darker hair, less white hairs on face, more orange hairs on face, shorter beards, but that all differentiates depending on the individual.) I'm not too sure about gorilla species though. It's just this individual case which is confusing, because Dodie doesn't look anything like her biological sister (who looks Sumatran).
 
Great Argus said:
The studbook should be correct - it is well documented what zoos have Sumatrans, Borneans, and hybrids now. Genetic testing is helpful as is documented pedigrees.

This thread may interest you, though it is current population only - I've linked it to the page with the most recent full list of apes.
North American Orangutan Population
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I would trust the information given in the studbook given the importance placed on ascertaining which individuals were purebred and which were hybrid.

The AZA orangutan SSP issued a moratorium on cross-breeding in 1985, which was followed in 1994 by a recommendation to sterilise hybrids if housed in a situation where breeding could be possible.
 
Zoofan15 said:
I would trust the information given in the studbook given the importance placed on ascertaining which individuals were purebred and which were hybrid.

The AZA orangutan SSP issued a moratorium on cross-breeding in 1985, which was followed in 1994 by a recommendation to sterilise hybrids if housed in a situation where breeding could be possible.
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Yeah, it does make sense to trust the studbook, but I’m still interested in how she looks so Bornean compared to her sister. Plus there are other orangutans in the studbook where the father isn’t known for certain. But I’m sure I may just overanalysing it, as people would’ve realised it years ago anyway. Thanks for the response!
 
xt=yaia said:
Yeah, it does make sense to trust the studbook, but I’m still interested in how she looks so Bornean compared to her sister. Plus there are other orangutans in the studbook where the father isn’t known for certain. But I’m sure I may just overanalysing it, as people would’ve realised it years ago anyway. Thanks for the response!
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No problem. Like you say, there will be variances between individuals. Auckland Zoo have held both Sumatran and Bornean throughout their history and the purebred individuals I’ve seen in person (and in historical photos have been typical examples of their respective species); however I too have seen exceptions in overseas zoos - long beards on Borneans the size of what you’d expect to see on a Sumatran etc.

Sumatran orangutan are also supposed to be more arboreal, but I can report that Auckland’s Borneans are rarely off the ropes and aerial pathway so exceptions will always exist.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Sumatran orangutan are also supposed to be more arboreal, but I can report that Auckland’s Borneans are rarely off the ropes and aerial pathway so exceptions will always exist.
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This is more likely to be a wild behavior difference than in captive populations given the Tiger and Dhole both occur on Sumatra but not Borneo. Much safer to be less arboreal in the absence of large ground predators.
 
xt=yaia said:
In my opinion, Borneans and Sumatrans are quite easy to tell apart, and Borneans usually have the wider faces (also usually darker hair, less white hairs on face, more orange hairs on face, shorter beards, but that all differentiates depending on the individual.) I'm not too sure about gorilla species though. It's just this individual case which is confusing, because Dodie doesn't look anything like her biological sister (who looks Sumatran).
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IMO Dodie does look Bornean- the dark hair and heavy muzzle and small scraggly beard are all indicators. However she can't be if her mother Susie is purebred Sumatran which the image appears to show. I would say the studbook is wrong and Dodie must be a hybrid with a Bornean father whose characteristics are much more in evidence in her than her Sumatran mother's. The 'sister' Sally looks pure Sumatran so probably has a different(Sumatran) father.

Dodie's son Kumar looks more Sumatran. But if Dodie is a hybrid then he must be too and only 3/4 Sumatran. His flat face and beard 'look' Sumatran but his beard and coat are darker than are typical. He does look hybrid to me.
 
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Zoofan15 said:
No problem. Like you say, there will be variances between individuals. Auckland Zoo have held both Sumatran and Bornean throughout their history and the purebred individuals I’ve seen in person (and in historical photos have been typical examples of their respective species); however I too have seen exceptions in overseas zoos - long beards on Borneans the size of what you’d expect to see on a Sumatran etc.

Sumatran orangutan are also supposed to be more arboreal, but I can report that Auckland’s Borneans are rarely off the ropes and aerial pathway so exceptions will always exist.
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From my many observations over the years, you do get occassional Borneans that are lighter than usual and resemble Sumatrans somewhat, but I've never seen a very 'dark'' Sumatran. Usually the other distinguishing characteristics- amount of face hair, depth of muzzle, overall build etc are good guides also.

I've also noticed other pronounced differences too- Sumatrans are quicker, more nervy and slimmer, Borneans are often more phlegmatic, 'lazy' and prone to obesity in captivity. Both species are arboreal obviously but when climbing Sumatrans are more acrobatic and less deliberate in their actions too.
 
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xt=yaia said:
Yeah, it does make sense to trust the studbook, but I’m still interested in how she looks so Bornean compared to her sister. Plus there are other orangutans in the studbook where the father isn’t known for certain. But I’m sure I may just overanalysing it, as people would’ve realised it years ago anyway. Thanks for the response!
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Don't necessarily trust the studbook...they take their info provided by the zoos. So may be unaware of occassional discrepancies that might arise such as mistaken parenthood by the zoo itself. They record the data given to them and the error then stays. Not infallible.
 
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Pertinax said:
IMO Dodie does look Bornean- the dark hair and heavy muzzle and small scraggly beard are all indicators. However she can't be if her mother Susie is purebred Sumatran which the image appears to show. I would say the studbook is wrong and Dodie must be a hybrid with a Bornean father whose characteristics are much more in evidence in her than her Sumatran mother's. The 'sister' Sally looks pure Sumatran so probably has a different(Sumatran) father.

Dodie's son Kumar looks more Sumatran. But if Dodie is a hybrid then he must be too and only 3/4 Sumatran. His flat face and beard 'look' Sumatran but his beard and coat are darker than are typical. He does look hybrid to me.
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I 100% agree. I’ve seen many Sumatrans who kind of resemble Borneans by having less face hairs, giving them “shinier” and darker faces, and Borneans who look Sumatran, with lighter hair and longer beards. But I don’t see why Dodie would look so drastically different from her sister if they have the same parents. Kumar also became a father in 2018, so if he is a hybrid, that would make the new baby a hybrid too (only 1/8th Bornean though). I also think Dodie’s father may have been one of the younger Bornean males at the zoo.
 
xt=yaia said:
I 100% agree. I’ve seen many Sumatrans who kind of resemble Borneans by having less face hairs, giving them “shinier” and darker faces, and Borneans who look Sumatran, with lighter hair and longer beards. But I don’t see why Dodie would look so drastically different from her sister if they have the same parents. Kumar also became a father in 2018, so if he is a hybrid, that would make the new baby a hybrid too (only 1/8th Bornean though). I also think Dodie’s father may have been one of the younger Bornean males at the zoo.
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Dodie almost looks pure Bornean to me, and with that darker beard and coat colour, her son Kumar looks like a hybrid, though Dodie must in fact be a hybrid too. Sometimes more of one species' characteristics is apparent in a hybrid than the other- in Dodie Bornean predominates.

As Sumatrans age, in the females the beards get longer/bigger but the hairy faces of their youth often disappear and they assume a darker skinned bare face. But its very different from how Dodie looks- she has a mostly Bornean appearance.
 
An orangutan in Basel zoo in the 2010s sired a child by mating through the net with female in another exhibit, which had her own mate. So, if both Bornean and Sumatran males were present at the zoo at the time of Dodie's birth, there is at least theoretical possibility of mixed paternity. I am not a specialist in orangutan appearance myself to judge.
 
Jurek7 said:
An orangutan in Basel zoo in the 2010s sired a child by mating through the net with female in another exhibit, which had her own mate. So, if both Bornean and Sumatran males were present at the zoo at the time of Dodie's birth, there is at least theoretical possibility of mixed paternity. I am not a specialist in orangutan appearance myself to judge.
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Back in 1977 when Dodie was born, it was common for hybrids to be bred in zoos, and for different species to be kept together (as they were only known to be subspecies), which makes it more likely that her father was Bornean. And there were two Bornean males present at the time.
 
Jurek7 said:
An orangutan in Basel zoo in the 2010s sired a child by mating through the net with female in another exhibit, which had her own mate. So, if both Bornean and Sumatran males were present at the zoo at the time of Dodie's birth, there is at least theoretical possibility of mixed paternity. I am not a specialist in orangutan appearance myself to judge.
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This happened in Twycross Zoo in the UK in the 1970's too. Bornean and Sumatran pairs were kept adjacent to each other. Unknown to the zoo the Bornean male mated the Sumatran female through the mesh. Several hybrids were produced but only discovered much later after they were karyotyped for their purity. The Sumatran male was in fact infertile though he mated also.

Over the years I've had my suspicions about other possibly undetected hybrids too.
 
Pertinax said:
This happened in Twycross Zoo in the UK in the 1970's too. Bornean and Sumatran pairs were kept adjacent to each other. Unknown to the zoo the Bornean male mated the Sumatran female through the mesh. Several hybrids were produced but only discovered much later after they were karyotyped for their purity. The Sumatran male was in fact infertile though he mated also.

Over the years I've had my suspicions about other possibly undetected hybrids too.
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That's really interesting. Which other orangutans do you think look like possible hybrids? I honestly thought testing would've been done more often to ensure they're of the right species, especially for orangutans born in the 70s-80s.
 
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