Australasian Asian Elephant Population 2022

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The two frozen semen ones would make sense to be Bong Su (who had some of his semen frozen). It wouldn't make sense to use frozen semen from Putra Mas, when they could've harvested it and flown it to New Zealand; although the journey would've been eight or so hours, double what would be done at Melbourne and Taronga, and a little more than Porntip at Dubbo - I believe it was around six hours following the semens harvesting until it was inseminated into Porntip.

It’s a shame that Gung was transferred to Dubbo shortly after Bong Su’s death, making him a non viable option. The options were really semen flown out from Perth - approximately nine hours if you factor in transit from the zoos/airports; or frozen semen from Bong Su. It would appear they chose the latter.

Considering Gung was trained for AI by at least 2012 (when there were AI attempts with Tang Mo), it’s surprising that Auckland didn’t liaise with Taronga from the beginning. Bong Su had a notably high sperm count, but Gung was a fertile bull and once a certain threshold has been reached, sperm count is irrelevant to conception.
 
It’s a shame that Gung was transferred to Dubbo shortly after Bong Su’s death, making him a non viable option. The options were really semen flown out from Perth - approximately nine hours if you factor in transit from the zoos/airports; or frozen semen from Bong Su. It would appear they chose the latter.

Considering Gung was trained for AI by at least 2012 (when there were AI attempts with Tang Mo), it’s surprising that Auckland didn’t liaise with Taronga from the beginning. Bong Su had a notably high sperm count, but Gung was a fertile bull and once a certain threshold has been reached, sperm count is irrelevant to conception.
Emitt of whiisnade semen was flown from London to Israel and ai to a cow which had a calf
 
Emitt of whiisnade semen was flown from London to Israel and ai to a cow which had a calf

It would've been a similar journey (time wise) to if Anjalee was inseminated at Auckland by semen from Putra Mas over at Perth. It could be done (as evident by the Israel pregnancy), but was essentially a hard task, and not entirely worth the finance unless they were absolutely sure the cow would get pregnant.
 
It would've been a similar journey (time wise) to if Anjalee was inseminated at Auckland by semen from Putra Mas over at Perth. It could be done (as evident by the Israel pregnancy), but was essentially a hard task, and not entirely worth the finance unless they were absolutely sure the cow would get pregnant.

Unfortunately biosecurity restrictions made it impossible to import the semen following those five attempts, which is the reason they stopped. I don’t know whether there was enough was enough frozen semen left over for a hypothetical third attempt; or whether they would have swapped to Putra Mas at that point.

What can be said for sure, is she stands no better chance than she does now at Dubbo with two available bulls to cover her throughout her irregular cycles and hopefully achieve success.
 
Unfortunately biosecurity restrictions made it impossible to import the semen following those five attempts, which is the reason they stopped. I don’t know whether there was enough was enough frozen semen left over for a hypothetical third attempt; or whether they would have swapped to Putra Mas at that point.

What can be said for sure, is she stands no better chance than she does now at Dubbo with two available bulls to cover her throughout her irregular cycles and hopefully achieve success.

Does a stimulant bull increase performance at all in elephants? I.e. would both Pathi Harn and Gung attempt to out-compete the other? I know Pathi Harn and Luk Chai were very wary when Gung was in Musth but I wonder how Gung reacts now when Pathi Harn is in Musth?

Also, does anyone know if Anjalee has been introduced to Gung or Pathi Harn yet? From social media, it looks like she has been introduced to Sabai.
 
Does a stimulant bull increase performance at all in elephants? I.e. would both Pathi Harn and Gung attempt to out-compete the other? I know Pathi Harn and Luk Chai were very wary when Gung was in Musth but I wonder how Gung reacts now when Pathi Harn is in Musth?

Also, does anyone know if Anjalee has been introduced to Gung or Pathi Harn yet? From social media, it looks like she has been introduced to Sabai.

No, I’ve never heard anything to suggest the presence of a competitor bull does anything to enhance the performance of the breeding bull; though it also wouldn’t be detrimental.

I imagine with Pathi Harn maturing, Gung would be somewhat hostile to him during interactions (from a distance) when in musth.

As of a month ago, no introductions had taken place between Anjalee and either Gung or Pathi Harn. No decision had been made at that time on which bull Anjalee would be breeding with - though I’m on the opinion Pathi Harn is the better option considering how prolific Gung’s line will become with Luk Chai siring multiple calves at Werribee.
 
As of a month ago, no introductions had taken place between Anjalee and either Gung or Pathi Harn. No decision had been made at that time on which bull Anjalee would be breeding with - though I’m on the opinion Pathi Harn is the better option considering how prolific Gung’s line will become with Luk Chai siring multiple calves at Werribee.

Once introductions are complete and she is reasonably comfortable with both of them. I suspect they'll use Pathi Harn on Thong Dee first and determine from that interaction whether he is 'adept' enough. If all fails with Pathi Harn, Gung the more experienced bull can be the backup.

Also, do male elephants Musth cycles synchronize? Also, can Pathi Harn and Sabai still be held together when Sabai enters into a musth cycle? Obviously, he will be more aggressive but Pathi Harn is much larger and the dominant of the two. It would take up a lot of space to house Sabai, Pathi Harn, and Gung all in separate paddocks while one or two of them are in Musth.
 
Once introductions are complete and she is reasonably comfortable with both of them. I suspect they'll use Pathi Harn on Thong Dee first and determine from that interaction whether he is 'adept' enough. If all fails with Pathi Harn, Gung the more experienced bull can be the backup.

Also, do male elephants Musth cycles synchronize? Also, can Pathi Harn and Sabai still be held together when Sabai enters into a musth cycle? Obviously, he will be more aggressive but Pathi Harn is much larger and the dominant of the two. It would take up a lot of space to house Sabai, Pathi Harn, and Gung all in separate paddocks while one or two of them are in Musth.

That sounds like a likely plan. Pathi Harn has previously been observed to mount the cows, so I anticipate he’ll be a successful breeding bull. I would expect Thong Dee to conceive prior to Anjalee to role model neonatal care in the lead up to Anjalee’s birth. Hopefully this (combined with her experience at the orphanage) will be sufficient in helping her care for her first calf.

Musth cycles don’t synchronise, but can overlap. Interestingly, Gung has had irregular musth cycles in the past as well which has made it harder to predict when he will enter musth.

I wouldn’t recommend housing Pathi Harn and Sabai together when Sabai is in musth. Commonsense behaviour of knowing when to back down against the older/stronger bull will go out the window and Pathi Harn could become more forceful than normal in order to assert his dominance. It could potentially escalate into a very aggressive encounter. It would indeed require four of the five available paddocks to be utilised, but hopefully the new barn and paddock will be up and running within the next few years to relive the pressure on the existing infrastructure. It’s fortunate no factions have formed within the matriarchal herd.
 
I’m not going to quote posts, too much work, but to answer some questions:

Yes, bulls in musth *can* still be housed with other bulls, however this entirely depends on the personalities of all the animals involved, and the pre-existing relationships between them. They also generally still need to be housed alone at night, just as a safety precaution. Just off the top of my head, Luka at Osnabruk was able to share space with a number of younger bulls during his musth cycle, and at least 3 of the bulls at Denver can still be housed in social groups during their cycles.

In regards to “can bulls pull each other into musth cycles?” Well no…but also yes. This is one that seems to vary a bit from animal to animal, with no real rhyme or reason as to why. Some will come into musth like clockwork, at the same time every year for the same amount of time every year. Others will come into it irregularly, for variable amounts of time each time. Certain other bulls, will almost never have a musth cycle, without external events triggering it. For instance, prolific breeding bull Johnson at African lion safari in Canada, will rarely enter a full musth cycle, however can be brought in if multiple cows are cycling at the same time. Another bull, Thisiam at Knies Kinderzoo, went for several years without entering a musth cycle, however upon the transfer of a second mature bull to the facility, both of them *immediately* went into prominent musth cycles, and both males showed a marked increase in mounting and breeding behaviour towards the cows (both bulls were also able to be housed with cows for the duration of their musth cycles).

And lastly, for whether additional adult bulls can provide stimulation to encourage breeding or not to each other, once again, this is a case by case basis. Like the above mentioned example with Thisiam, yes, the addition of a second male *did* stimulate an increase in breeding behaviour. However in other cases, housing two adult males at the same facility has resulted in the dominant bull suppressing the subdominant male to the point the sub males fertility drops or even flatlines. Yet with others, there will be two mature males housed together, and both of them are equally successful as breeders. As a general rule (especially with Asian elephants), housing multiple breeding bulls at one facility won’t necessarily increase the odds of the bulls breeding the cows, but it usually won’t hurt anything, either.
 
According to a credible source in addition to Anjalee, there are 3.2 of Taronga Western Plains Zoo's elephants and a male at Melbourne Zoo are also Sri Lankan, they may not me pure Sri Lankan, but a majority of their ancestry should be Sri Lankan.
 
According to a credible source in addition to Anjalee, there are 3.2 of Taronga Western Plains Zoo's elephants and a male at Melbourne Zoo are also Sri Lankan, they may not me pure Sri Lankan, but a majority of their ancestry should be Sri Lankan.

The elephants you refer to are:

Taronga Western Plains Zoo:

1.0 Gung (2000)
0.1 Porntip (1992)
0.1 Kanlaya (2018)
1.0 Pathi Harn (2010)
1.0 Sabai (2016)

Melbourne Zoo:

1.0 Luk Chai (2009)

I was always under the impression Taronga’s herd were of the Indian subspecies, but if you have information to the contrary, we’d love to hear more (including details of sources). Sri Lankan ancestry may account for Porntip’s tall stature - especially compared to small we females Thong Dee.
 
The elephants you refer to are:

Taronga Western Plains Zoo:

1.0 Gung (2000)
0.1 Porntip (1992)
0.1 Kanlaya (2018)
1.0 Pathi Harn (2010)
1.0 Sabai (2016)

Melbourne Zoo:

1.0 Luk Chai (2009)

I was always under the impression Taronga’s herd were of the Indian subspecies, but if you have information to the contrary, we’d love to hear more (including details of sources). Sri Lankan ancestry may account for Porntip’s tall stature - especially compared to small we females Thong Dee.

Taronga's herd were of the Indian subspecies. Tang Mo and Thong Dee are definitely not Sri Lankans, so if what you say is true, Porntip and Gung must be a little Sri Lankan as well.

Gung, though, is an unusually small male, which would contradict the fact that Sri Lankans are much more taller.
 
Taronga's herd were of the Indian subspecies. Tang Mo and Thong Dee are definitely not Sri Lankans, so if what you say is true, Porntip and Gung must be a little Sri Lankan as well.

Gung, though, is an unusually small male, which would contradict the fact that Sri Lankans are much more taller.

We know he was referring to Porntip at Dubbo being a Sri Lankan elephant as he said an additional 0.2 females were Sri Lankan, which would have to be the mother-daughter dyad of Porntip and Kanlaya e.g. one couldn't be Sri Lankan without the other.

On a side note, I'd love to see the size of a male calf born to Anjalee and Pathi Harn, considering she's a Sri Lankan cow (tall) and he has size from both parents (irregardless of ancestry). This combination could produce a very large bull.
 
On a side note, I'd love to see the size of a male calf born to Anjalee and Pathi Harn, considering she's a Sri Lankan cow (tall) and he has size from both parents (irregardless of ancestry). This combination could produce a very large bull.

A calf from Pathi Harn and Anjalee would be very interesting. Pathi Harn's father (Bong Su) is the tallest male on record ever in the Southern Hemisphere. His mother, Porntip, I believe is currently the tallest female in the Southern Hemisphere at the moment (Anjalee will probably eventually overtake her). So, Pathi Harn, has a lot of potential! At the moment he's not quite three metres yet, but he still has many years of growth ahead of him.
 
A calf from Pathi Harn and Anjalee would be very interesting. Pathi Harn's father (Bong Su) is the tallest male on record ever in the Southern Hemisphere. His mother, Porntip, I believe is currently the tallest female in the Southern Hemisphere at the moment (Anjalee will probably eventually overtake her). So, Pathi Harn, has a lot of potential! At the moment he's not quite three metres yet, but he still has many years of growth ahead of him.

He's probably already taller than Luk Chai and would be closing in on Gung
 
He's probably already taller than Luk Chai and would be closing in on Gung

He overtook him in size (though sinilar in height) shortly before Luk Chai's transfer, which was also reflected in Pathi Harn assuming dominance. He took a lot longer to catch up then I expected, due to Luk Chai being nine months older in age. As calves, Luk Chai was bold and confident; while Parhi Harn was shy and reserved. As adults, Luk Chai is chilled and friendly; while Parhi Harn is more forcefull.
 
He's probably already taller than Luk Chai and would be closing in on Gung

He overtook him in size (though sinilar in height) shortly before Luk Chai's transfer, which was also reflected in Pathi Harn assuming dominance. He took a lot longer to catch up then I expected, due to Luk Chai being nine months older in age. As calves, Luk Chai was bold and confident; while Parhi Harn was shy and reserved. As adults, Luk Chai is chilled and friendly; while Parhi Harn is more forcefull.

This is a photo of Luk Chai and Pathi Harn from 2020:

upload_2022-8-9_17-20-20.jpeg
Source: File:2020-10-07 Asian elephant (Elephas maximus) in Taronga Western Plains Zoo 1.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

At that point in time, I’d actually put Luk Chai as slightly heavier than Pathi Harn, but as you can tell, Pathi Harn is clearly going to be a tall bull. He has a similar build to his sire, Bong Su.

His tusks are also coming through nicely.
 

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He's probably already taller than Luk Chai and would be closing in on Gung

He overtook him in size (though sinilar in height) shortly before Luk Chai's transfer, which was also reflected in Pathi Harn assuming dominance. He took a lot longer to catch up then I expected, due to Luk Chai being nine months older in age. As calves, Luk Chai was bold and confident; while Parhi Harn was shy and reserved. As adults, Luk Chai is chilled and friendly; while Parhi Harn is more forcefull.

Luk Chai's rather short for a male; not much taller than the girls at Melbourne, who are short themselves. If I was to guess, Pathi Harn would be over nine feet ( at least 2.7 metres) at the moment, but will definitely reach ten feet (3 metres).
 
At that point in time, I’d actually put Luk Chai as slightly heavier than Pathi Harn, but as you can tell, Pathi Harn is clearly going to be a tall bull. He has a similar build to his sire, Bong Su.

Luk Chai's a small male. He's short, but not too stocky; so with Pathi Harn now being taller, i'd imagine he weighs more now.

Pathi Harn looks a lot like his half brothers (Ongard and Man Jai). Interestingly he's also much darker, and has smaller, yet hairier airs, which he gets from his father, Bong Su (who was Malaysian).
 
Luk Chai's a small male. He's short, but not too stocky; so with Pathi Harn now being taller, i'd imagine he weighs more now.

Pathi Harn looks a lot like his half brothers (Ongard and Man Jai). Interestingly he's also much darker, and has smaller, yet hairier airs, which he gets from his father, Bong Su (who was Malaysian).

Luk Chai was never going to be a large bull given how small his parents are. Sabai seems to be following a similar growth trajectory and will no doubt be similar in size to Luk Chai.

Together, Luk Chai and Sabai were also the two lightest calves at birth:

Birth Weights of Elephant Calves in Australian Zoos

Gung’s Calves:

1.0 Luk Chai born 2009 (Thong Dee): 96kg
0.1 Tukta born 2010 (Pak Boon): 120kg
1.0 Sabai born 2016 (Thong Dee): 101kg
1.0 Jai Dee born 2017 (Pak Boon): 130kg

Bong Su’s Calves:

0.1 Mali born 2010 (Dokoon): 111kg
1.0 Pathi Harn born 2010 (Porntip): 116kg
1.0 Ongard born 2010 (Kulab): 142 kg
1.0 Man Jai born 2013 (Dokoon): 131kg
1.0 Sanook born 2013 (Num Oi): 131kg

Putra Mas’ Calves:

0.1 Willow born 2016 (Num Oi): 103kg
0.1 Kanlaya born 2018 (Porntip): 120kg
 
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