Melbourne Zoo Future of Melbourne Zoo 2023 (Speculation / Fantasy)

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Jambo said:
The are behind the kids play area is a very small area. I've seen people use it as a shortcut to the Tasmanian Devils on occasions; it wouldn't be more than ten metres to get from one side to the other side of the loop.

I'd like to see the Red Pandas next to the Snow Leopards (just geographically) but they could still remain in their current enclosures.

I don't think there's enough space for Tahr opposite the Red Pandas, but the former elephant enclosure which is nearby might actually do. I'd prefer Takin rather than Tahr, but considering Tahr are already within the region they might be easier to obtain.

Andean Bears are another species to consider for the South American precinct. They're far more likely than Jaguar imo.
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not sure if you were able to view my diagram, and please correct me, but I believe there is enough space if the Tahr literally surround the red pandas.
I believe I have mentioned Andean Bear in this thread, and am therefore very much with you on that one. Of course I’d like to see all carnivores eventuate, which is of course unlikely. As strange as this is, given that jaguars are somewhat obtainable, it’s great to hear that Andean bears are more obtainable. As I was saying before, clouded leopard are also found in the Himalayas and suit the Carnivore theme much more.
I was able to observe Takin in the wild in my visit to China, and I may have also mentioned them in this thread as a species of interest with the tahr, albeit it is unlikely
 
steveroberts said:
Hey guys didn't know where else to put this but found an interesting thesis (can post the link if anyone wants) about the history of naturalistic exhibits in zoos that while it acknowledges Hagenbacks designs in Germany from 1907 onwards that inspired a lot of other zoos, but then zoos retreated backwards later in the 20th century for more concrete and stone bottomed exhibits for hygiene frenzy and bars again because visitors complained about the distance with Hagenback-Essie styled exhibits like the pits and canyon fronted ones at Taronga in the past for example; the thesis really leans heavily on Woodland Park Zoo in Seattle being the 'first' with naturalistic settings beginning with upgrading a few exhibits like desert theming their already existing Caracal exhibit and their Gorilla immersion one from 1976 that sounds a lot like Melbourne, plus all their habitat regions that followed.

While interesting to read so far, and this is where it becomes relevant to Melbourne Zoo; it irked me slightly because while Melbourne Zoo had not yet got to the immersion phase yet, their developments from the mid 60s to early 70s was already taking shape of more humane settings for their animals with big examples being Lion Park in '66 and the Cat Alleys and Ape Grottoes which while the latter two were not big at least gave grass and or soil under the animals feet.

It just kind of felt like the thesis jumped from the concrete and bars stage of 20th century zoos straight to WP Zoo in Seattle doing their works from the mid '70s onwards. I don't know much about Chester or Jersey Zoo in the UK but it sounds like they were grass flooring up exhibits for their animals at the same time as Melbourne was back in the day (other zoos in Australia at least, not sure about NZ were still a bit behind Melbourne at this stage with some noble exceptions of Australian animal exhibits landscaping and the lake islands at Perth Zoo in '72).

Sorry if this post is a ramble just wanted to share about it and see if it was mad of me to want some detailed acknowledgment that there were some landscaped more natural exhibits starting to happen in some forward zoos like Melbourne for example from mid 1960s onwards and although WP Seattle was the first for immersion it wasnt necessarily the first to start progressing again away from sterile floored concrete exhibits.


(PS there was a mention in the thesis about a new vet at WP Seattle arriving in '72 kicking off the progress by putting hay with snacks hidden in the hay on the floor in the zoos Monkey House, similar to what have seen and heard about when monkeys were still in older cages like some at Perth in the '90s and wood chip layers were added over the concrete floors for foraging stimulation; just would think that surely there were a couple of zoos pre dating WP Seattle that made the ground of their monkey exhibits a bit more enriching for their primates earlier then 1972). I know with this one specifically it doesn't hold up well compared with Melbourne Zoo in that Melbourne's non Ape primates got their improved exhibits a little bit later with the Arboreal Walk and for the Baboons a considerable wait longer, but once Melbourne 'delivered' their better exhibit conditions for their monkeys they were and still are some of the best exhibits.
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It’s a real shame that Hagenbacks concepts were never followed in Australasia to the extent they were in Europe. London Zoo’s Mappin Terraces were an architectural masterpiece.

As a region, Australasia has greatly lagged behind Europe and North America - and continues to do so in many regards. Most of our main zoos were only founded last century and our development has been further limited by the restrictions on what we can import.

Despite this, Melbourne has a lot to be proud of and the period of rejuvenation towards the end of the 21st Century saw the creation of several world class exhibits - that remain timeless pieces of architecture.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Personally, I think the Nepalese red panda would be a better fit for the Carnivore precinct as their link to the Snow leopard is their only tangible geographical link at this point in time.

Additionally, Clouded leopard are a sensitive species that would become even more reclusive housed if close proximity to three species of apex predator (Snow leopard, African lion and Sumatran tiger).
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I believe the coati area is somewhat secluded from other big cats, and Melbourne can breed off display if that’s in their interests. Given both species represent the Himalayas, I believe that because Clouded Leopard isn’t currently held and fits the carnivore theme more it should be the first choice. Just imo tho, great to have a convo like this
 
@Jambo

I understand, but part of what I'm trying to say is that even with the Hancock masterplan (one of the best for its time in the world though still taxonomically sectioning inclined; albeit still the norm outside of safari parks and Bronx Zoo) was still a step away from concrete floors, just not immersive yet..but progress nevertheless.

Finding the thesis came from a genuine desire to find out first on ZC (no specific answer found yet) and then google about which were the first zoos to use grass and soil or similar (basic planting in essence) to replace concrete (excluding compact dirt floors for hoofstock, elephants, rhinos etc that did exist at the time, I guess more so the first zoos to use grass and soil for felids, canids, bears, primates etc instead of concrete).

and the thesis is closest have gotten to an answer except it jumps to immersive constructions from the late '70s which immediately got me thinking 'hang on, Melbourne's Lion Park and others were progressive upgraded exhibits for some of its animals starting in the late '60s'.

Soz any further post that I write here will be back to the future of MZ in response to the amazing concepts you guys are floating.

@PaddyRickMFZ <3 your Red Panda and Himalayan Tahr schematic it's an excellent design idea.

@Zoofan15 Boy oh boy is India lucky when it comes to felid species, just reading that native felid list alone is exciting, the possibilities for an India focused felid section would be enough for an area as big as some of the larger country or continent focused/themed areas/precincts of city zoos (or even open ranged zoos).
 
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PaddyRickMFZ said:
I believe the coati area is somewhat secluded from other big cats, and Melbourne can breed off display if that’s in their interests. Given both species represent the Himalayas, I believe that because Clouded Leopard isn’t currently held and fits the carnivore theme more it should be the first choice. Just imo tho, great to have a convo like this
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Even being adjacent to these apex predators could be a stressor for an already notoriously shy animal. I’d love to see Clouded leopard, but believe being displayed adjacent to ungulates is a better way to go and would make for better display animals.

In addition, the Clouded leopard would be the fourth felid species in the Carnivores precinct. While I’d be thrilled, Zoos Victoria would be conscious of not taking the opportunity to showcase different types of carnivores.
 
PaddyRickMFZ said:
Side note, I desperately hope that WORZ become as crazy about cats as they advertise, with the addition of Floppa and the aforementioned South American countries
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Werribee represents an opportunity to build complexes dedicated to both big and small felids. While an open range zoo conjures up images of large open fields housing prides of lions, there’s no reason they can’t construct a series of well vegetated shaded exhibits to display smaller felids such as the Clouded leopard.

A facility dedicated to the housing and breeding of Clouded leopard could see multiple exhibits constructed - increasing the odds of successful pairings (off display); and increasing the odds the visitors will actually see something in the on display exhibits.
 
I
Zoofan15 said:
Even being adjacent to these apex predators could be a stressor for an already notoriously shy animal. I’d love to see Clouded leopard, but believe being displayed adjacent to ungulates is a better way to go and would make for better display animals.

In addition, the Clouded leopard would be the fourth felid species in the Carnivores precinct. While I’d be thrilled, Zoos Victoria would be conscious of not taking the opportunity to showcase different types of carnivores.
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I agree. In come the beauty of Komodo Dragon, Sun Bear and Ussuri Dhole. Having a mini cats precinct within the carnivore precinct is interesting, and I believe someone mentioned earlier that the clouded leopard would be able to breed off display
 
Zoofan15 said:
Werribee represents an opportunity to build complexes dedicated to both big and small felids. While an open range zoo conjures up images of large open fields housing prides of lions, there’s no reason they can’t construct a series of well vegetated shaded exhibits to display smaller felids such as the Clouded leopard.

A facility dedicated to the housing and breeding of Clouded leopard could see multiple exhibits constructed - increasing the odds of successful pairings (off display); and increasing the odds the visitors will actually see something in the on display exhibits.
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That’s a great idea, and would open the door for another species, such as Pallas’s cat to fill that exhibit(still not on board with the Red Panda idea ngl). That would leave Eurasian Lynx with Digested and the surrounding area. I personally prefer an immersive exhibit with Tahr and Red panda as described earlier(thanks @steveroberts for the support on this one) as opposed to having it overshadowed in a carnivore precinct
 
steveroberts said:
@Zoofan15 Boy oh boy is India lucky when it comes to felid species, just reading that native felid list alone is exciting, the possibilities for an India focused felid section would be enough for an area as big as some of the larger country or continent focused/themed areas/precincts of city zoos (or even open ranged zoos).
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I’d love to see a precinct focussed on exhibiting felids of India. With 15 species, there’s so many options to choose from (with at least four or five required to do the precinct justice).

Since it’d be a challenge to achieve ZAA support for so many new species, it’s more realistic to hope for an Indian or South Asian precinct. It’s a geographic area largely neglected these days in favour of South East Asia. Historically, the region housed so many Indian species including Indian leopard, Bengal tiger, Leopard cat and Bonnet macaque.
 
steveroberts said:
@Zoofan15

Sounds like Clouded Leopards really need that space away from other carnivores if they are to feel comfortable enough to mate and breed, similar to Cheetah (and Temminick's Golden Cats too unless I'm wrong on the latter).
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No, you’re 100% correct about Temminck’s golden cat and Cheetah requiring privacy and an absence of apex predators. Female Temminck’s golden cats are highly sensitive to disturbances during the neonate stage and are known to cannibalise their own kittens if they don’t feel safe.

Clouded leopard don’t make good display animals at the best of times. I’m of the opinion housing them next to ungulates or birds (and ideally out of the way of large scale human thoroughfare) would make for less stressed cats that people might actually see.
 
Zoofan15 said:
I’d love to see a precinct focussed on exhibiting felids of India. With 15 species, there’s so many options to choose from (with at least four or five required to do the precinct justice).

Since it’d be a challenge to achieve ZAA support for so many new species, it’s more realistic to hope for an Indian or South Asian precinct. It’s a geographic area largely neglected these days in favour of South East Asia. Historically, the region housed so many Indian species including Indian leopard, Bengal tiger, Leopard cat and Bonnet macaque.
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Even just and Asian section, takes highlights from all across the country could be great. Would allow for a species such as a Bornean Bay cat, which is very interesting imo. On top of all these aforementioned species. Ofc something large like this would need to be held at WORZ, but a small scale version holding different species could be held in the final elephant exhibit( Pallas cat and Eurasian Lynx in the carnivore precinct).

Could essentially be an Asian focused Cat alley, on top of the South American section. Could be surprisingly cost effective if utilised correctly imo
 
@Zoofan15

While I love seeing the SE Asian animals in our zoos, can't see why we can't also have India themed precincts. India is also a close neighbour to Australia and has endangered species too just like SE Asia.

The SE Asia obsession in our zoos seems to of come about in the early '90s onwards when there was suddenly a lot more focus starting in political diplomacies (Keating Aus ex PM when studying him in school saw he worked hard to foster a sense of reminding Australia that SE Asia were our closest neighbours besides New Zealand, well closer if you're in Darwin or Broome or Perth), but it almost feels like our zoos started to take this approach too:Malayan Tapirs, Clouded Leopards and Fishing Cats coming into our region zoowise in that decade, discounting a few short lived imports of these species in decades prior, PZ had a short lived Malayan Tapir; increase in holdings of Sumatran Tigers, Sun Bears, Temminick's Golden Cats, Binturongs, WC Gibbons, Silvery Gibbons and 3 SE Asian Langur species (SC Otters and Orangutans and Siamangs and WH/Lar Gibbons not mentioned cos already were popular, Dholes an anomaly for Taronga only which never understood as to why only Taronga were keen on them, and ironically while we had many SE Asian Macaque in our region, they were being phased out of big zoos while the SE Asia focus was increasing with only Crab Eating Macaques in Tarongas Orangutan SE Asian exhibit for a short time and Crested Macs in Perth's (SE) Asian Rainforest for less than five years [albeit both these species were already present in their respective zoos, just meant SE Asian focused precinct present, which is why also didn't add Slow Lorises as always in zoos general nocturnal houses when they are in the region ie only MZ and PZ in recent years).
 
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PaddyRickMFZ said:
Even just and Asian section, takes highlights from all across the country could be great. Would allow for a species such as a Bornean Bay cat, which is very interesting imo. On top of all these aforementioned species. Ofc something large like this would need to be held at WORZ, but a small scale version holding different species could be held in the final elephant exhibit( Pallas cat and Eurasian Lynx in the carnivore precinct).

Could essentially be an Asian focused Cat alley, on top of the South American section. Could be surprisingly cost effective if utilised correctly imo
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You raise an interesting point re. an Asian Cat alley as it correlates to availability of species per geographic area.

Jaguar won’t be an option any time soon, so rather than focus on felids, South American precincts would focus on the wide variety of monkeys available:

South America: Primates
Asia: Felids
Africa: Felids and Ungulates
Australia: Birds and Marsupials
 
steveroberts said:
@Zoofan15

While I love seeing the SE Asian animals in our zoos, can't see why we can't also have India themed precincts. India is also a close neighbour to Australia and has endangered species too just like SE Asia.

The SE Asia obsession in our zoos seems to of come about in the early '90s onwards when there was suddenly a lot more focus starting in political diplomacies (Keating Aus ex PM when studying him in school saw he worked hard to foster a sense of reminding Australia that SE Asia were our closest neighbours besides New Zealand, well closer if you're in Darwin or Broome or Perth), but it almost feels like our zoos started to take this approach to (Malayan Tapirs, Clouded Leopards and Fishing Cats coming into our region zoowise in that decade, discounting a few short lived imports of these species in decades prior, PZ had a short lived Malayan Tapir; increase in holdings of Sumatran Tigers, Sun Bears, Temminick's Golden Cats, Binturongs, WC Gibbons, Silvery Gibbons and 3 SE Asian Langur species).
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I personally like the effect of SE Asia on our zoos(I’m a big tapir fan if you haven’t already noticed) but I agree it should not be limited to that, and should diversify throughout Asia
 
Zoofan15 said:
You raise an interesting point re. an Asian Cat alley as it correlates to availability of species per geographic area.

Jaguar won’t be an option any time soon, so rather than focus on felids, South American precincts would focus on the wide variety of monkeys available:

South America: Primates
Asia: Felids
Africa: Felids and Ungulates
Australia: Birds and Marsupials
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I believe South American precinct should take priority in arboreal animals, as opposed to just monkeys. With amazing bird species found there, and interesting species such as Tamandua and Coati etc. it could be very interesting. Conversely, they also have interesting ground dwelling animals such as agouti, capybara, tapir, armadillos and giant anteaters. Fine to steer away from carnivores, as sad as that is, but the non-predatory animals should be represented as much as possible
 
steveroberts said:
@Zoofan15

While I love seeing the SE Asian animals in our zoos, can't see why we can't also have India themed precincts. India is also a close neighbour to Australia and has endangered species too just like SE Asia.

The SE Asia obsession in our zoos seems to of come about in the early '90s onwards when there was suddenly a lot more focus starting in political diplomacies (Keating Aus ex PM when studying him in school saw he worked hard to foster a sense of reminding Australia that SE Asia were our closest neighbours besides New Zealand, well closer if you're in Darwin or Broome or Perth), but it almost feels like our zoos started to take this approach to (Malayan Tapirs, Clouded Leopards and Fishing Cats coming into our region zoowise in that decade, discounting a few short lived imports of these species in decades prior, PZ had a short lived Malayan Tapir; increase in holdings of Sumatran Tigers, Sun Bears, Temminick's Golden Cats, Binturongs, WC Gibbons, Silvery Gibbons and 3 SE Asian Langur species).
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I think a heavy emphasis was placed on the South East Asia species being seen as well suited to our climate - not necessarily in preference to Indian species; but certainly those from colder climates/countries. The most obvious example is Adelaide and Wellington Zoo phasing out Siberian tigers for Sumatran tigers as well as the phase out of several large bear species (including Polar bear) for the tropical Malayan sun bear.
 
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