Australasian Asian Elephant Population 2024

[Trua]

I heard when Pathi Harn and Luk Chai were spending time with the matriarchal herd (which contained the then juveniles Sabai and Kanlaya) both were keen to return to their paddocks after an hour or so.

Luk Chai was still spending time with Gung up until his transfer to Melbourne; and had been visiting him since he was a calf at Taronga. Pathi Harn was nervous of the trailer apparently (used to transport the elephants after the move to PC in 2012), so didn’t participate in visits to Gung.

Yeah Luk Chai was really the only little fella that travelled over to see Gung back then. Porntip and Pak Boon weren't too fond of him unlike the younger two girls, so naturally Luk Chai was the only calf who often travelled over with mum.

Pathi Harn's always been a nervous one too. His personality really reminds me of his fathers in a way. Must be the genetics lol

 

[Zoofan15]

Yeah Luk Chai was really the only little fella that travelled over to see Gung back then. Porntip and Pak Boon weren't too fond of him unlike the younger two girls, so naturally Luk Chai was the only calf who often travelled over with mum.

Pathi Harn's always been a nervous one too. His personality really reminds me of his fathers in a way. Must be the genetics lol

That’s interesting to hear Porntip and Pak Boon weren’t too fond of Luk Chai. The strongest bonds between the cows were Porntip and Pak Boon; and Thong Dee and Tang Mo, but Tang Mo doted on all three calves and I recall reading an article about Tukta approaching Thong Dee to suckle (with the latter allowing her). Thong Dee received support from the herd in raising Luk Chai, whereas Porntip was more self-sufficient.

It was evident watching Melbourne’s herd that Kulab and Num-Oi similarly seperate off (along with Num-Oi’s daughter Kati); though the calves don’t discriminate and run to and from all the adults.

Luk Chai was patient and gentle with Pathi Harn and Tukta from a young age, allowing them to climb all over him. This followed through to him being a good mentor to Sabai; and now his three calves at Melbourne, all of which have met him.

 

[Trua]

That’s interesting to hear Porntip and Pak Boon weren’t too fond of Luk Chai. The strongest bonds between the cows were Porntip and Pak Boon; and Thong Dee and Tang Mo, but Tang Mo doted on all three calves and I recall reading an article about Tukta approaching Thong Dee to suckle (with the latter allowing her). Thong Dee received support from the herd in raising Luk Chai, whereas Porntip was more self-sufficient.

It was evident watching Melbourne’s herd that Kulab and Num-Oi similarly seperate off (along with Num-Oi’s daughter Kati); though the calves don’t discriminate and run to and from all the adults.

Luk Chai was patient and gentle with Pathi Harn and Tukta from a young age, allowing them to climb all over him. This followed through to him being a good mentor to Sabai; and now his three calves at Melbourne, all of which have met him.

I do seem to remember early on it was Porntip who was paired with Thong Dee often to help guide her with Luk Chai. She was pregnant herself and due not long after, so it's possible staff were also just trying to prepare Porntip herself.

Initially once Luk Chai came along lo and behold he was the center of attention for staff, guests and the elephants alike. The older females were also quite curious early on so it was speculated he may have been the first calf they had seen born too since they were younger at least.

After Porntip and Pak Boon mothered calves of their own however they did become more focused on their own calves. I recall one occasion when they went after him after he accidentally knocked a then young Tukta over. I guess it's fair to say his playful personality didn't always fare him well! Porntip and Pak Boon would always watch him like a hawk. He was always up to mischief.

As he grew he didn't change and the little bugger was everywhere. I and the keepers certainly were always glad he had Tang Mo to watch out for him and keep him company. Thong Dee wasn't the most hands on mother.

 

[Zoofan15]

I do seem to remember early on it was Porntip who was paired with Thong Dee often to help guide her with Luk Chai. She was pregnant herself and due not long after, so it's possible staff were also just trying to prepare Porntip herself.

Initially once Luk Chai came along lo and behold he was the center of attention for staff, guests and the elephants alike. The older females were also quite curious early on so it was speculated he may have been the first calf they had seen born too since they were younger at least.

After Porntip and Pak Boon mothered calves of their own however they did become more focused on their own calves. I recall one occasion when they went after him after he accidentally knocked a then young Tukta over. I guess it's fair to say his playful personality didn't always fare him well! Porntip and Pak Boon would always watch him like a hawk. He was always up to mischief.

As he grew he didn't change and the little bugger was everywhere. I and the keepers certainly were always glad he had Tang Mo to watch out for him and keep him company. Thong Dee wasn't the most hands on mother.

Thanks for sharing.

I recall a comment about how Porntip having a calf was considered a priority as she was matriarch. No further explanation was given but my assumption is this is because prior to Pathi Harn’s birth, the focus of the entire herd was on Thong Dee/Luk Chai - they were the centre of attention as you put it; also tying in with Thong Dee leaning more on the herd for support than the other mothers.

The original plan was for Porntip and then Pak Boon to breed first, due to their age. Thong Dee was initially believed to be three years younger than what she was.

At Dubbo, Sabai being two years older than Kanlaya has proved a challenge at times. Porntip has had to restrict his access to Kanlaya, especially during the early years. I’d assess two years as a challenging age gap all around - the older calf isn’t mature enough to respect boundaries or provide any assistance; but is larger enough to potentially injure the younger calf. Melbourne’s latest cohort has been the ideal scenario (all born within two months of each other) - the calves benefit from each other and the herd has a shared focus.

 

[Jambo]

The original plan was for Porntip and then Pak Boon to breed first, due to their age. Thong Dee was initially believed to be three years younger than what she was.

In regards to the ages, it seems some (if not most) of the Thai imports ages were mere rough estimates.

Interestingly, the four younger cows all seem were born to private owners (Kulab, Num Oi, Thong Dee and Tang Mo). Whereas the older three cows and Gung were all listed with unknown initial destinations prior to their arrival at the Ayutthaya Royal Elephant Kraal. The facility was founded in 1996, so it can be guaranteed the older three cows all arrived from elsewhere initially. It's also likely Gung arrived from another facility too, as Ayutthaya was a facility specifically set up to take in orphaned street elephants a problem Thailand was dealing with at the time.

I had heard that the older three cows ages were especially more of an estimate and this seems discovery seems to support that theory.

Dokkoon, for instance, has always been a female on the smaller side. Prior to Mali's birth (as a mature cow), she was only just taller than both Kulab and Num Oi who were both only seven and eight at the time. This has always been something I wondered, as she physically doesn't look that much older.

2004 was the year all of these elephants were first identified by Taronga and Melbourne for import. It's weird how they mistook a then seven year old Thong Dee for being four! It makes me wonder how many of the other elephants age estimates are slightly off.

 

[Trua]

I recall a comment about how Porntip having a calf was considered a priority as she was matriarch. No further explanation was given but my assumption is this is because prior to Pathi Harn’s birth, the focus of the entire herd was on Thong Dee/Luk Chai - they were the centre of attention as you put it; also tying in with Thong Dee leaning more on the herd for support than the other mothers.

You're spot on. In the beginning Porntip and Pak Boon were to both be bred with Gung. After a while they realised he wasn't ready to mate them just yet and alas, AI.

Porntip was always the matriarch of the Taronga herd. She was the biggest. The bossiest. The most commanding. But all the other cows looked up to her or at least seemed to 'respect' her for like of a better word. Same went for Pak Boon, but to a lesser extent.

There was also talk of inseminating Pak Boon too, but she was a smaller cow and also commanding so the job was easier for Gung. It was decided to wait naturally with her and that's part of the reason why Porntip was also prioritised for the Bong Su insemination.

 

[Trua]

In regards to the ages, it seems some (if not most) of the Thai imports ages were mere rough estimates.

Interestingly, the four younger cows all seem were born to private owners (Kulab, Num Oi, Thong Dee and Tang Mo). Whereas the older three cows and Gung were all listed with unknown initial destinations prior to their arrival at the Ayutthaya Royal Elephant Kraal. The facility was founded in 1996, so it can be guaranteed the older three cows all arrived from elsewhere initially. It's also likely Gung arrived from another facility too, as Ayutthaya was a facility specifically set up to take in orphaned street elephants a problem Thailand was dealing with at the time.

I had heard that the older three cows ages were especially more of an estimate and this seems discovery seems to support that theory.

Dokkoon, for instance, has always been a female on the smaller side. Prior to Mali's birth (as a mature cow), she was only just taller than both Kulab and Num Oi who were both only seven and eight at the time. This has always been something I wondered, as she physically doesn't look that much older.

2004 was the year all of these elephants were first identified by Taronga and Melbourne for import. It's weird how they mistook a then seven year old Thong Dee for being four! It makes me wonder how many of the other elephants age estimates are slightly off.

I was scrolling through a few of the other chats about the elephants and was surprised no one else brought this up.

It too is something that has plagued my mind for a while. I do know Ayutthaya wasn't the most reliable with their animal records. They had almost a hundred at the time so can't blame them really. All were also thrown in rather quickly. It was only open less than a decade before Taronga arrived.

It didn't help all of their elephants came from private owners, most of whom managed many and weren't entirely transparent with the authorities!!

Luckily for you though I do know Melbourne's cows sires/dams. I will consult my records and get back to you.

 

[Trua]

You're spot on. In the beginning Porntip and Pak Boon were to both be bred with Gung. After a while they realised he wasn't ready to mate them just yet and alas, AI.

Porntip was always the matriarch of the Taronga herd. She was the biggest. The bossiest. The most commanding. But all the other cows looked up to her or at least seemed to 'respect' her for like of a better word. Same went for Pak Boon, but to a lesser extent.

There was also talk of inseminating Pak Boon too, but she was a smaller cow and also commanding so the job was easier for Gung. It was decided to wait naturally with her and that's part of the reason why Porntip was also prioritised for the Bong Su insemination.

Sorry meant to say 'less commanding' for Pak Boon. For some reason can't edit grr!!

 

[Zoofan15]

You're spot on. In the beginning Porntip and Pak Boon were to both be bred with Gung. After a while they realised he wasn't ready to mate them just yet and alas, AI.

Porntip was always the matriarch of the Taronga herd. She was the biggest. The bossiest. The most commanding. But all the other cows looked up to her or at least seemed to 'respect' her for like of a better word. Same went for Pak Boon, but to a lesser extent.

There was also talk of inseminating Pak Boon too, but she was a smaller cow and also commanding so the job was easier for Gung. It was decided to wait naturally with her and that's part of the reason why Porntip was also prioritised for the Bong Su insemination.

It was also mentioned it was desirable to have calves from different founder bloodlines within the herd:

Gung x Thong Dee
Bong Su x Porntip
Gung x Pak Boon

Had Pathi Harn been female, he could have been mated with Gung upon maturity; while Pathi Harn and Tukta were a potential match had Tukta survived to maturity.

Looking to the future, Pathi Harn could sire calves to any cow in Werribee’s herd (including daughters of Luk Chai); with the exception of Mali (daughter of Bong Su and Dokkoon) and any future daughters she produces.

 

[Jambo]

I was scrolling through a few of the other chats about the elephants and was surprised no one else brought this up.

It too is something that has plagued my mind for a while. I do know Ayutthaya wasn't the most reliable with their animal records. They had almost a hundred at the time so can't blame them really. All were also thrown in rather quickly. It was only open less than a decade before Taronga arrived.

It didn't help all of their elephants came from private owners, most of whom managed many and weren't entirely transparent with the authorities!!

Luckily for you though I do know Melbourne's cows sires/dams. I will consult my records and get back to you.

Thanks for that! Would be keen to get that information.

Do you also have any information on Taronga's cows and bull too?

 

[Jambo]

It was also mentioned it was desirable to have calves from different founder bloodlines within the herd:

Gung x Thong Dee
Bong Su x Porntip
Gung x Pak Boon

Had Pathi Harn been female, he could have been mated with Gung upon maturity; while Pathi Harn and Tukta were a potential match had Tukta survived to maturity.

Looking to the future, Pathi Harn could sire calves to any cow in Werribee’s herd (including daughters of Luk Chai); with the exception of Mali (daughter of Bong Su and Dokkoon) and any future daughters she produces.

It's a real shame Tukta passed. If she was still alive, it's not unreasonable to assume Taronga's elephant situation would be completely different now.

Being fourteen, it's likely Taronga would've had to have made a decision regarding their elephant breeding sooner. She would've also provided Monarto with an additional breeding cow and another cow for Putra Mas to potentially be paired with.

Theoretically, she could've also been paired with Pathi Harn as you say, although a transfer of the rest of the herd across to Dubbo would've hindered on the capacity there.

The decision to split Taronga's herd back in 2014 is also something I reconsider to this day. Obviously the decision was made to transfer out the two young bulls, and initially it was decided to send them with Gung but in reality this was never really going to work out well as both were still heavily dependent on their mothers. I'm guessing space was perhaps an issue as to why they didn't transfer the whole herd over. Additionally, Taronga would've still wanted to display elephants. They were hugely popular at the time.

 

[Zoofan15]

It's a real shame Tukta passed. If she was still alive, it's not unreasonable to assume Taronga's elephant situation would be completely different now.

Being fourteen, it's likely Taronga would've had to have made a decision regarding their elephant breeding sooner. She would've also provided Monarto with an additional breeding cow and another cow for Putra Mas to potentially be paired with.

Theoretically, she could've also been paired with Pathi Harn as you say, although a transfer of the rest of the herd across to Dubbo would've hindered on the capacity there.

The decision to split Taronga's herd back in 2014 is also something I reconsider to this day. Obviously the decision was made to transfer out the two young bulls, and initially it was decided to send them with Gung but in reality this was never really going to work out well as both were still heavily dependent on their mothers. I'm guessing space was perhaps an issue as to why they didn't transfer the whole herd over. Additionally, Taronga would've still wanted to display elephants. They were hugely popular at the time.

Tukta began cycling around four years of age and Pathi Harn was showing interest in her, but due to her age the zoo understandably didn’t allow her to conceive so young. I have no doubt had Tukta survived plans would have been made for her to have had her first calf around the age of 12-14 years - possibly in 2022, the year Mali (also born 2010) delivered her first calf at Melbourne.

The split of the herd was unfortunate in that it divided the two friend groups: Porntip and Pak Boon; Thong Dee and Tang Mo, though I wonder if the split (though primarily to allow the two bull calves to go together to Dubbo) was made with the future in mind. It’s often mentioned on here that herds overseas have seen divisions form as cows grow their matrilines. When the split was made, Porntip was yet to produce a daughter; while Pak Boon had a daughter of her own - which at the time was a promising indication of her developing a matriline. Combined with Pak Boon’s dominant personality, I would assess Porntip/Pak Boon’s friendship as the most likely to have gone south versus the other bonded pairs we have in the region. Pak Boon has revelled in her matriach role at Taronga in Porntip’s absence. She displaced Tang Mo several times from food on my visit.

 

[Jambo]

The split of the herd was unfortunate in that it divided the two friend groups: Porntip and Pak Boon; Thong Dee and Tang Mo, though I wonder if the split (though primarily to allow the two bull calves to go together to Dubbo) was made with the future in mind. It’s often mentioned on here that herds overseas have seen divisions form as cows grow their matrilines. When the split was made, Porntip was yet to produce a daughter; while Pak Boon had a daughter of her own - which at the time was a promising indication of her developing a matriline. Combined with Pak Boon’s dominant personality, I would assess Porntip/Pak Boon’s friendship as the most likely to have gone south versus the other bonded pairs we have in the region. Pak Boon has revelled in her matriach role at Taronga in Porntip’s absence. She displaced Tang Mo several times from food on my visit.

The move also seemed to be a reflection of Taronga's realisation that it wouldn't be feasible to hold the entire herd in the complex they had in the long term without having to limit breeding. If the Dubbo transfer never went through, Taronga could have had eleven elephants come 2018 following Kanlaya's birth; a number only destined to grow as the years went on.

It's likely however, the young bulls (Luk Chai and Pathi Harn) would have been transferred over to Dubbo anyway as they matured. I believe the Dubbo complex was always planned to serve as a contingency to Taronga's breeding program; surplus bulls being the obvious route.

 

[Zoofan15]

The move also seemed to be a reflection of Taronga's realisation that it wouldn't be feasible to hold the entire herd in the complex they had in the long term without having to limit breeding. If the Dubbo transfer never went through, Taronga could have had eleven elephants come 2018 following Kanlaya's birth; a number only destined to grow as the years went on.

It's likely however, the young bulls (Luk Chai and Pathi Harn) would have been transferred over to Dubbo anyway as they matured. I believe the Dubbo complex was always planned to serve as a contingency to Taronga's breeding program; surplus bulls being the obvious route.

By the time the Thai imports arrived, Dubbo had both elderly African and Asian elephants, so I would agree the long term plan was to manage the new herd across two sites long term as part of a renewal plan for the Dubbo site as the older elephants died out. Elephants have been a popular fixture at Dubbo dating back to 1977, albeit beginning with African elephants.

It’s reasonable to assume Taronga weren’t initially planning a total phase out of their elephants as they originally featured in the masterplan with what appeared to be overhead passes etc.

Though both Melbourne and Taronga have experienced setbacks, on the whole the breeding programme has been a huge success. Of the 14 calves born between 2009-2024, 9 are still alive today and another is due next year.

 

[Trua]

It’s reasonable to assume Taronga weren’t initially planning a total phase out of their elephants as they originally featured in the masterplan with what appeared to be overhead passes etc.

They weren’t in fact. As of circa 2017 they still had plans for an extension. It would have involved a large path connecting the cow complex to the bulls. The only other method of transport was via the crates following the move to protective contact and this was difficult to manage especially with calves around.

From what I understand the whole extension fell through once the decision was made to transfer Gung to Dubbo to allow for the Giraffes to move across to his enclosure. Cuddle’s death had opened up space and Gung too had no application at the city site with Pak Boon recently delivering. He was never going to return and this only lessened the need to build the extension.

 

[Jambo]

They weren’t in fact. As of circa 2017 they still had plans for an extension. It would have involved a large path connecting the cow complex to the bulls. The only other method of transport was via the crates following the move to protective contact and this was difficult to manage especially with calves around.

From what I understand the whole extension fell through once the decision was made to transfer Gung to Dubbo to allow for the Giraffes to move across to his enclosure. Cuddle’s death had opened up space and Gung too had no application at the city site with Pak Boon recently delivering. He was never going to return and this only lessened the need to build the extension.

I seem to remember viewing a master plan around that time which did have the plans for the extension still present, so this appears to confirm it.

It’s a shame they never went through with it. It would’ve been intriguing to see how such a project would have turned out. The pathway would’ve likely gone through the current location of the Gorilla exhibit. With the planned construction of the Congo precinct beforehand it’s safe to assume the Elephant pathway would’ve indeed been along the current gorilla habitat, with two overhead pathways over the main path.

Although we’ll soon see something similar to this at Werribee, it would’ve been interesting to see how it would’ve turned out at Taronga!

 

[Zoofan15]

They weren’t in fact. As of circa 2017 they still had plans for an extension. It would have involved a large path connecting the cow complex to the bulls. The only other method of transport was via the crates following the move to protective contact and this was difficult to manage especially with calves around.

From what I understand the whole extension fell through once the decision was made to transfer Gung to Dubbo to allow for the Giraffes to move across to his enclosure. Cuddle’s death had opened up space and Gung too had no application at the city site with Pak Boon recently delivering. He was never going to return and this only lessened the need to build the extension.

That’s interesting to know. Gung and Pak Boon had two surviving calves at that point, so I imagine had the decision been made to continue with elephants at Taronga, they would have looked at doing AI with her and Tukta via a different bull.

It was interesting that they chose to undertake AI with Porntip for her second pregnancy rather than pair her with Gung, but great they did from a genetic standpoint. I know she had at least one failed AI cycle prior to conceiving Kanlaya.

 

[Trua]

It was interesting that they chose to undertake AI with Porntip for her second pregnancy rather than pair her with Gung, but great they did from a genetic standpoint. I know she had at least one failed AI cycle prior to conceiving Kanlaya.

In 2014 the decision was made to attempt to introduce Putra Mas’s genetics into the regional program via AI. Apparently it was important to have a variety of genetics within the regional gene pool, and at that point only two bulls had been utilised.

Melbourne had two cows available, and Taronga had one. Both Porntip and Num Oi were inseminated at the end of the year. Only one of the pregnancies was successful.

Porntip moved across to Dubbo not long after, so she couldn’t be AI’d again for a period. Not sure as to why they waited another year to AI her again but the goal was always for her to be AI’d again with Putra Mas.

It will be interesting your guys opinions on who should sire her next calf.

 

[Zoofan15]

In 2014 the decision was made to attempt to introduce Putra Mas’s genetics into the regional program via AI. Apparently it was important to have a variety of genetics within the regional gene pool, and at that point only two bulls had been utilised.

Melbourne had two cows available, and Taronga had one. Both Porntip and Num Oi were inseminated at the end of the year. Only one of the pregnancies was successful.

Porntip moved across to Dubbo not long after, so she couldn’t be AI’d again for a period. Not sure as to why they waited another year to AI her again but the goal was always for her to be AI’d again with Putra Mas.

It will be interesting your guys opinions on who should sire her next calf.

It would have been nice if Taronga had been able to sync the pregnancies of Porntip and Thong Dee to have both given birth in 2016. As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, Sabai being two years older than Kanlaya presented a range of challenges.

The bull I’d most like to see enter the breeding programme is Pathi Harn. His father Bong Su had four sons - two are deceased; and one was exported to the US. Pathi Harn is therefore his father’s only son in the region and his mother is only represented via her two offspring (unlike Thong Dee, who has two sons and three grandchildren; with the promise of more at Werribee).

We can expect to see Luk Chai sire three more calves at Werribee; but beyond that is anyone’s guess. Were Thong Dee to conceive another calf (unlikely), we could near guarantee Pathi Harn would be the sire given it’d be undesirable to have three Gung x Thong Dee sons. Pathi Harn could also sire Anjalee’s next calf.

Gung and Porntip would be a match not previously made in the region - making her the first cow to have calves by all three founder bulls!

 

[Jambo]

In 2014 the decision was made to attempt to introduce Putra Mas’s genetics into the regional program via AI. Apparently it was important to have a variety of genetics within the regional gene pool, and at that point only two bulls had been utilised.

Melbourne had two cows available, and Taronga had one. Both Porntip and Num Oi were inseminated at the end of the year. Only one of the pregnancies was successful.

Porntip moved across to Dubbo not long after, so she couldn’t be AI’d again for a period. Not sure as to why they waited another year to AI her again but the goal was always for her to be AI’d again with Putra Mas.

It will be interesting your guys opinions on who should sire her next calf.

Following Willow’s death, I remember asking a keeper whether Num Oi would be bred from again; this would have been around 2017 ish shortly after Bong Su’s death. He advised me that the zoo was moving away from AI at that point on time, which is a decision that Melbourne still seems to stand firm on to this point in time. I recall bringing up Putra Mas and he told me the region was indeed aiming to increase the number of his offspring, however it wouldn’t be through AI (at least at Melbourne).

Who was the other female available for AI?

In regards to Porntip’s next calf it’s yet to be seen whether she will in fact breed again. She already has an adult son and adolescent daughter at Dubbo which could be sufficient for future representation. She’s also now in her early 30’s. I’m saying that I personally would hope she would be given the opportunity to bred once more. Being on site, Gung is the obvious candidate to mate with her naturally.