European (Tea)Cup - League C - Beauval vs Cologne

[TeaLovingDave]

Two strong contenders facing off against one another in a category which - I strongly suspect and hope - is liable to spark a lot of discussion and debate: PRIMATES.

The victor will become clear in three days.....

 

[TeaLovingDave]

This one strikes me as holding the potential to be one of the closest and hardest-fought matches so far - although I have never visited Beauval I have the impression this is one of the stronger categories it could have pulled, but Cologne is also strong in this category and *possibly* has the overall advantage.

For now I shall position myself on 3:2 Cologne, with scope to either switch to Beauval or strengthen my position further depending on how the discussion goes.

 

[CrashMegaraptor]

A cursory glance at ZTL suggests that Beauval has the advantage in terms of quantity, at the very least.

It's been several years since I went to Cologne, but I do recall the large primate house with their Western Lowland Gorillas, Bornean Orangutans and Bonobos. I thought it was quite impressive, personally. They also had this one enclosure with six South American species where it was divided into sections where the smaller monkeys could move away from the larger ones if need be... not AS flashy, but a nice touch nonetheless.

 

[twilighter]

This is going to be intresting!

Ape Urwald house at Cologne with the Gorilla, Orangutan and Bonobo trio is one of the best in Germany. Features also unique for the continent Weddell's saddle-back tamarin and King collobus.

The Lemur house has the awkward "octagon" outdoor exhibits, but the collection includes Coqurel's Sifaka, Blue-eyed Black Lemur and Gentle Lemur.

The new South American house has a nice exhibit for the Red Howler and few other Callitrichids inside, but the old South American Primate area is quite outdated.



The Beauval collection made a progress in the recent years and the whole Central Monkey Pathway area was renovated and the collection there incledes the rare Red-tailed Mustached Monkey, De Braaza Monkey, Patas Monkey and Diana Monkey.

The Great Ape accommodations are bit tired indoors, but are more than adequate with a big Gorilla, Orangutan and Chimpanzee islands outside.

The nearby Lemur islands are also very well done. The recent arrival there is a Southern yellow-checked Gibbon.

The Asian Primate collection is very strong in general with Hanuman Langurs and Javan Lutungs in big and well-planted exhibits at the Asian zone.
Huge exhibit for the Lion-tailed Macaques on the way to Bears and the biggest rarity at the zoo - Red-shanked Douc Langurs at the Tropical house.

Big part of the South American collection was transferred to the newly built South American bird aviary, which is the biggest in Europe. The exhibits felt a bit raw on my visit, just after opening, but they definitely offers space and potential.

Cologne was a synonym for exquisite Primate collection and specialis of rare South American Primates, but this is mostly former glory. I still love what the zoo has to offer and aplode the Sifaka's arrival, but my vote will go for Beauval 3:2.

 

[twilighter]

Beauval I

Red titi island at the Tropical Dome


Part of the Red Shanked Douc Langurs narrow, but very long and high exhibit with a lot of climbing options.




Bolivian Squirrel Monkey aviary. They also live in a Walktrough aviary together with a Tamandua inside the Tropical Dome.




Spider Monkey / Giant Anteater exhibit at the South American aviary




Part of the Red Howler monkey exhibit at the South American aviary


Diana Monkey exhibit


Monkey Pathway with Red-tailed Mustached Monkey, De Braaza Monkey and Diana Monkey

 

[twilighter]

Beauval II

Yellow-breasted capuchin Island


Parts of Gorilla indoor tropical house and the outdoor exhibits shared with Patas Monkey









Orangutan and Lar Gibbon part of the outdoor and indoor
exhibits







Chimpanzee

 

[amur leopard]

This one's a really interesting matchup. I thought Cologne's great ape outdoor exhibits were some of the best I'd ever seen - huge netted exhibits with ample privacy and greenery. Having said this, the indoors were not as good. The South American House and environs I thought were brilliant, but on the flip side Cologne's biggest stumbling block is its Madagascar House. Far too many of these exhibits are substantially too small, especially the 'outdoors'. It's a fabulous species lineup and some of the exhibits are mostly fine (mouse lemur, sifaka at a pinch), but it's got some serious issues that I don't think Beauval has. Really hesitating which way to go as a result.

 

[Dassie rat]

Beauval has 25 types of primates that Cologne doesn't have. It gets 15 extra points for primates in up to 10 ZTL collections
Cologne has 12 types of primates that Beauval doesn't have. It gets 30 extra points for primates in up to 10 ZTL collections
Cologne wins 42-40. I'll make this a 3-2 win

 

[twilighter]

Beauval III

Hanuman Langur exhibit at the Asian Plains


Javan Langur / Clouded Leopard connected exhibits




Lion-tailed Macaque exhibit


Barbary Macaque exhibit


Ring-tailed Lemur Island


Kikuyu Guereza Islands


Red-ruffed Lemur Island

 

[lintworm]

This is one of those matches where I could happily live with a draw, but if forced to choose I will still go for Cologne.

Both have a sizable collection with numerous rarities at each zoo, though Beauval has more species: 34 vs. 21. But with both zoos having such a strong collection, I find species numbers not that interesting.

Each zoo has it's own strengths and weaknesses. Cologne is clearly better for me when it comes to the apes and S-American species. Whereas Beauval is stronger with the lemurs and the old world monkeys. Beauval clearly wins when it comes to looks, as most of their enclosures are significantly younger and some look greener. But Cologne is one of those old-fashioned German zoos where if you can look past the looks, enclosures are often better for their inhabitants than appears at first sight. Whereas in Beauval they quite often lack either vertical climbing space or are too open.

Let's start with the great ape house, which is despite it's age still holding up extremely well and a building I like a lot, also from a historical standpoint. So let me just quote what I wrote some years ago in a rather notorious thread:

69. Urwaldhaus
Koelner Zoo, Germany
Opened: 1985
Size: 5750 square metres (house 2200 square metres)
Inhabitants: Bornean orangutan, bonobo, western lowland gorilla, king colobus Weddel’s tamarin, pygmy marmoset, Javan langur

Zoo buildings rarely age well when it comes to animal husbandry. To then find a nearly 40 year old building that has aged remarkably well, while holding great apes, is a rarity. Many relatively newly built enclosures could still learn something here when it comes to designing indoor habitats for great apes. The Cologne house is a near identical copy of the original great ape house of Krefeld, which sadly burnt down in 2020. While that building badly needed a renovation, Cologne’s is still doing fine as it already has outdoor enclosures and uses glass-fronted cages instead of dry moats. It is only the bonobos that could do with extra enclosures here. This building could also be considered as one of the first immersion exhibits, as the visitor areas are densely planted with tropical vegetation. The great ape habitats have none of that naturalism though, but are crammed with structure, enrichment options and are smartly designed so that apes can avoid each other and humans. Like so many other zoos the apes here prefer to be inside rather than outside and one can’t blame them, even if their outdoor enclosures aren’t too shabby either. This long used to be the pilgrimage site for red-shanked douc langurs too, but currently rarity hunters will have to do with Europe’s only Weddel’s tamarin.

@Goura

@lintworm

@lintworm

@twilighter

@Toddy

Compare this to the ape enclosures in Beauval and one finds they are often lacking in structure and especially the orangutan enclosure there is quite poor in my opinion, lacking real height and climbing opportunities. The comparison with Cologne is one of many examples that, bar exceptions, orangutans tend to get better enclosures in cages as opposed to islands.

The other highlight in Cologne is the S-American house. In gone ages this housed multiple uakari and saki species, but after years of renovation it is now really shining.

The indoor area is a spacious walkthrough with multiple S-American primate species, as well as sloths and birds. Because the basement is part of the walkthrough, the primates have some real height to use. Something that is very often lacking for especially the smaller species like silvery marmosets:

This is a really good house in my opinion, combining historical architecture with modern husbandry. I really like it and I prefer it over anything Beauval has to offer in this category.

Adjacent to this house is one of multiple red howler monkey enclosures. Cologne is the only reason why this species is around (Beauval has that honour for moustached monkeys):

@twilighter

While the S-American building was under renovation. A temporary house was constructed, though it ended up being not so temporary. It houses yellow-breasted capuchins and red howler monkeys (as well as parrots & rock cavy) in rather basic, but by no means bad, enclosures:

@Toddy

Then there is the classic baboon rock, which is over 100 years old and currently holds some 50-55 Hamadryas baboons. It used to keep double that number, but in those days was significantly overcrowded. Overcrowding seems to be less of an issue these days (all males are sterilized), so it is more an interesting historical display:

Then there is the Madagascar house, which looks pretty bad and whose main weakness is the less of height and the small outdoor enclosures. Over the years, this building has been steadily being emptied of species, to give the remaining more space. Currently one side holds a breeding group of greater bamboo lemurs and a pair of blue-eyed black lemurs. The other is a mixed exhibit of mongoz lemur and the single coquerel's sifaka:

(Enclosure example, shows part of what is now the sifaka enclosure)

In the back of the building is a large nocturnal exhibit for Goodman's mouse lemur.

The problem of this building is not the indoor area (which is superior to most if not all indoor enclosures in Beauval), but the small outdoor area:

@Toddy

Some species have an extension in these balls:

 

[amur leopard]

It's a really tough one to call, and really depends how much importance you place on what. Are great apes more important, than, say, lemurs? I think, while Koeln does better with its great apes, Beauval's exhibits are still probably above average. Equally, Beauval does better with Old World Monkeys purely on the basis that Koeln hardly has any besides the baboon rock, which I'm not a massive fan of. I think while Koeln evidently does mostly give good vertical height, there are definitely exhibits where this is definitely not the case and I think this is actually less of a problem in Beauval. In terms of New World primates, the SA house in Koeln is brilliant but equally Beauval's capuchin exhibit is miles ahead of its Koeln counterpart. And then the factor that maybe tips it in Beauval's favour for me is the contrast in lemur (outdoor) exhibits. Tough one though, I'd be very open to counterarguments.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Given all that has been posted thus far, I feel pretty secure in my stance that Cologne merits the edge over Beauval - particularly due to the higher quality of the ape husbandry at the collection, the excellent way in which the South American house has been renovated and expanded in recent years, and the important work which the collection has been undertaking in keeping the European captive population of Greater Gentle Lemur going (from memory, only Cotswold Wildlife Park has also bred the species in the past decade) along with the Red Howler Monkey already mentioned by @lintworm .

 

[lintworm]

then the factor that maybe tips it in Beauval's favour for me is the contrast in lemur (outdoor) exhibits. Tough one though, I'd be very open to counterarguments

The lemur indoor exhibits (and the indoor exhibits in general) are imo far better in Cologne. A difference is that Cologne is a city zoo which also sees significant attendance in the colder months. Beauval is in the middle of nowhere and very heavily depends on the warmer months. Despite that these tropical animals spend considerable time indoors, what I could see of Beauval's indoor accomodation did not impress me for the lemurs & guenons. But it is far less visible because it doesn't have to be. And then Cologne has the Madagascar house, which is quite shocking at first sight, but gets somewhat better upon closer inspection. It is still not a great house and the sifaka in particular would really profit in the future enclosure in the former pachyderm building.

Beauval's exhibits are still probably above average

For the gorillas maybe. But the orangutan exhibit really is quite poor (but unfortunately that is no exception) and the chimpanzee one is also below average in my opinion. Compare that to enclosures in Cologne that are some 15-20 years older and I find the difference quite stark.


@TeaLovingDave Besancon has also bred greater gentle lemurs in the past decade, but not in the same numbers as Cotswold & Cologne.

 

[Lafone]

Two excellent contenders and again as someone who hasn't been to either as an adult I appreciate the comments and the shared media.

Both look to have collections that are well worth seeing.

When it comes down to it with this sort of match I tend to go on the one I'd like to spend the most time in looking at things in the category. I could spend a long time in the Cologne South America house (though the Tropical House at Beauval also looks excellent). Lots of other strong points but both ways. Currently 3/2 Cologne, but it's super close.

 

[CrashMegaraptor]

It's absolutely insane how close this match-up is. The first two times I checked, it was literally a draw, even after more people had voted. And even now, Beauval only has a one vote lead (unless whoever made that 5/0 vote has a solid argument). Considering you can normally get a good sense as to which zoo will win after only a couple of days, this is really saying something of the strengths (and weaknesses, it has to be said) of both Beauval and Cologne in their primate collections.

Still don't 100% feel confident in voting as I've only been to Cologne (Beauval being, as lintworm put it, in the middle of nowhere really scuppers any chances of me going there) and I feel I'd just be biased, but I'm really looking forward to seeing how this turns out.

 

[twilighter]

It is very close indeed, and I believe that everyone who loves Primates will be happy with whoever wins, because both zoos are really passionate about our closest relatives I cherish those matches, because I learn a lot of fascinating facts, that usually been overlooked in a regular zoo visit.

The list of Primate conservation programs supported from Beauval Nature is long-

- Ouistitis des montagnes (PREA) - BRÉSIL
-Tamarins lions - (Lion Tamarins of Brazil Fund) - BRÉSIL
- Tamarin à mains blanches (ACOPAZOA) - COLOMBIE
- Tamarin pinché (Proyecto Titi) - COLOMBIE
- Gorille des plaines de l’Ouest (Fondation Aspinall) - GABON ET RÉPUBLIQUE DU CONGO
- Langur de Java (Fondation Aspinall) - INDONÉSIE
- Lémuriens (Fondation Aspinall) - MADAGASCAR
- Orang-outan (Hutan) - MALAISIE
- Magot (BMCRif) - MAROC
- Bonobo (ABC) - RDC
- Chimpanzé d’Afrique centrale (Help Congo) - RÉPUBLIQUE DU CONGO
- Chimpanzé d’Afrique centrale(Jane Goodall Institute) - RÉPUBLIQUE DU CONGO

-and the Great Apes are very serios part of it. Those are few examples:

Beauval dedication to Gorillas conservation can be emphasize with the following sentence:
In 2021 baby Western Gorilla Taáli was born from mother Mayombe (born at Beauval ) and father Djongo (born at Port Lympne ) - the first time in history two captive-born gorillas have produced a baby in the wild.


Financial support to the Jane Goodall Institute for scientific research, ecosystem restoration and the rehabilitation and release of primates in protected areas, mainly
Chimpanzees and Mandrils at Tchimpounga sanctuary and reserve.

They are also heavily involved in HELP Congo, a conservation program dedicated to Chimpanzees initiated in 1991. The association is continuing the actions carried out and proposing new directions intended to protect other species living in the Conkouati-Douli National Park, 135 km from Pointe-Noire.

The main missions to be carried out:
- monitoring and management of chimpanzees living on three islands,
- possibility of reintroduction into the park of young born on these islands,
- census of the park's biodiversity
- assistance to local communities at the socio-economic level,
- development of educational programs for species conservation,
ecotourism projects,


Support for the association Les Amis des Bonobos (Friends of Bonobo)
They take in young individuals whose parents have been victims of poaching. The conservation program teams take care of the young and then release them into their natural environment. In this sanctuary, the teams also prepare for reintroduction by getting them used to entering, for example, specialized tunnels that will be used during release.

Nice words for the zoo from Jane Goodall:

 

[lintworm]

It is very close indeed, and I believe that everyone who loves Primates will be happy with whoever wins, because both zoos are really passionate about our closest relatives I cherish those matches, because I learn a lot of fascinating facts, that usually been overlooked in a regular zoo visit.

The list of Primate conservation programs supported from Beauval Nature is long-

- Ouistitis des montagnes (PREA) - BRÉSIL
-Tamarins lions - (Lion Tamarins of Brazil Fund) - BRÉSIL
- Tamarin à mains blanches (ACOPAZOA) - COLOMBIE
- Tamarin pinché (Proyecto Titi) - COLOMBIE
- Gorille des plaines de l’Ouest (Fondation Aspinall) - GABON ET RÉPUBLIQUE DU CONGO
- Langur de Java (Fondation Aspinall) - INDONÉSIE
- Lémuriens (Fondation Aspinall) - MADAGASCAR
- Orang-outan (Hutan) - MALAISIE
- Magot (BMCRif) - MAROC
- Bonobo (ABC) - RDC
- Chimpanzé d’Afrique centrale (Help Congo) - RÉPUBLIQUE DU CONGO
- Chimpanzé d’Afrique centrale(Jane Goodall Institute) - RÉPUBLIQUE DU CONGO

-and the Great Apes are very serios part of it. Those are few examples:

Beauval dedication to Gorillas conservation can be emphasize with the following sentence:
In 2021 baby Western Gorilla Taáli was born from mother Mayombe (born at Beauval ) and father Djongo (born at Port Lympne ) - the first time in history two captive-born gorillas have produced a baby in the wild.


Financial support to the Jane Goodall Institute for scientific research, ecosystem restoration and the rehabilitation and release of primates in protected areas, mainly
Chimpanzees and Mandrils at Tchimpounga sanctuary and reserve.

They are also heavily involved in HELP Congo, a conservation program dedicated to Chimpanzees initiated in 1991. The association is continuing the actions carried out and proposing new directions intended to protect other species living in the Conkouati-Douli National Park, 135 km from Pointe-Noire.

The main missions to be carried out:
- monitoring and management of chimpanzees living on three islands,
- possibility of reintroduction into the park of young born on these islands,
- census of the park's biodiversity
- assistance to local communities at the socio-economic level,
- development of educational programs for species conservation,
ecotourism projects,


Support for the association Les Amis des Bonobos (Friends of Bonobo)
They take in young individuals whose parents have been victims of poaching. The conservation program teams take care of the young and then release them into their natural environment. In this sanctuary, the teams also prepare for reintroduction by getting them used to entering, for example, specialized tunnels that will be used during release.

Nice words for the zoo from Jane Goodall:

This is just a list and as is most often the case with zoos and in situ conservation it is very hard, if not impossible to disentangle what the actual contribution of any given zoo is to conservation. So I don't think it is appropriate to use for the Zoochat cup.

To put stuff in perspective. Zooparc de Beauval runs Beauval Nature, which is a charity managing the conservation and research activities of the zoo. Most of the money in there comes from external sponsors. The Zooparc itself contributed 633.000 euros in money and it claims to have donated some 1.1 million euros worth of staff time and materials (a claim that is impossible to check). In total Beauval Nature spent almost 2 million euros on research and conservation in 2023 divided over 70+ projects. But Beauval does not specify how much money was spent on each individual project. So while it has a nice list of projects on primates, the actual contribution cannot be disentangled. And to put stuff in contrast, Beauval has an annual revenue of over 100 million euros. So the percentage of revenue spent on research & conservation is anywhere between 0.6% and 2% depending on how you want to count. That is not an awful lot.

Cologne on the other hand spent just over 400.000 euros on donations to in situ conservation, which thus excludes research projects as well as staff time (which is considerable given their curators tend to have "pet projects" with loads of field work). Of those some 82.000 euros has a direct link to primates, either through habitat protection of a project focused directly on primates. Zoo Cologne has an annual revenue of 21 million euros, so spends some 2% of their revenue on in situ conservation (excluding research.

So if conservation is deemed important, Cologne is probably more worthy of a vote than Beauval. But in all fairness I think it is best to leave it out of the equation, as getting the right data is nigh impossible and only such generalizations are possible.

 

[Panda_Fan]

Giving the edge here to Beuval. The collection of primates of both zoos is great, but that isn't going to be what I'll take at consideration, as both zoos have animals that stick out. Instead I'm going to look at the exhibit. I'm sorry but I will forever hate baboon rocks, even if there's a low number of animals in it. It's not excusable to have an exhibit like that, with no green in it (and judging from pictures, it isn't preaty big) when you're a zoo with a prestige as Cologne. And the madagascar house seems a bit bad with no natural substrate, and those round-shaped cages don't help either. It's a 3-2 for Beauval, but good job Cologne with your primates exhibits, they're great.
Do note that I haven't visit any of the zoos, but with the great pictures from @twilighter and @lintworm (thanks for the photos) I can give my vote with assurance.

 

[Lafone]

Will be interesting to hear the argument for the 5/0 Beauvel vote, as it appears much more balanced than between the two zoos, looking at the other votes. A really compelling argument could convince me the other way and it's coming down to the wire! Having said that it's hard to see how either zoo could get 0 points either way.

 

[remar]

I haven't been to Beauval, but something not mentioned yet, is that Beauval is the only reason why moustached guenons will be around for at least some more years at Europes zoos.

And does anybody here have informations about the douc langures. Two females already arrived pregnant. Has there been any reproduction since then?