European (Tea)Cup - League D - Leipzig vs Nuremberg

[TeaLovingDave]

This time round we see a pair of German collections facing off against one another - both are held in high esteem by zoo enthusiasts both within their home country and abroad, but differ in many ways. The question we must deal with, however, is how they each fare when looked at from the perspective of GRASSLANDS AND DESERT

I think this one has the potential to be another interesting match!

edit: this match pertains to TROPICAL FOREST, per the below.

 

[twilighter]

Is Nuremberg going to play two
consecutive games on Grassland and Desert

 

[CrashMegaraptor]

But... we've already had Grassland & Desert for this group. Nuremberg was in that group.

Surely this should be either....

• Tropical Forests
• Water
• Ectotherms

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Is Nuremberg going to play two
consecutive games on Grassland and Desert

But... we've already had Grassland & Desert for this group. Nuremberg was in that group.

Surely this should be either....

• Tropical Forests
• Water
• Ectotherms

I just checked my notes - this match *is* the one I originally assigned for the Grassland and Desert match, and the last match *should* have been the Tropical Forest match you'll recall I started the last League B and League D matches a little early because I was feeling tired and under the weather.... seems I was even more tired than I realised!

Hopefully no one will end up complaining if any given collection drops out of the competition as a direct result of my error, where it might otherwise have proceeded had the matches unfolded as originally-assigned

In the meantime, this match will be TROPICAL FOREST..... and I think it's fairly obvious that Leipzig merit a 3:2 vote for this one. I have started the clock for the three days of discussion, debate and voting afresh BTW!

 

[CrashMegaraptor]

OK, crisis averted.

Well, whilst I have never been to either zoo, I think Leipzig (which is a zoo I'd really love to visit, BTW) is going to have a significant advantage with Gondwanaland alone.

 

[twilighter]

Lucky Leipzig, I guess I will start with 4-1.

 

[Philipine eagle]

With Gondwanaland and Pongoland on the Leipzig side, this looks like mission impossible for Nurnberg. Both have their downsides but not enough to really give Nurnberg better changes.

But Nurnberg has 2 duiker species, Yellow-backed and Red forest duiker of which the latter's distribution area just reach the tropics, and with Negros warty pig and Babirussa, 2 suids that fit into this game. But Leipzig has Okapi, Pygmy hippo, Lowland anoa, Brown-antlered deer and, like Nurnberg, Negros warty pig and Malayan tapir. Fairly equal on the ungulate side?

Nurnberg's mangrove exhibit has a couple of interesting perching birds, but unfortunately for them most of these are also present in Leipzig. Can the Paradise tanager make the difference? Leipzig has a few more with the Yellow-crowned gonolek, both Robin-chats, Asian fairy-bluebird and the Montserrat oriole.

It's clear who wins on primates and carnivores, and with the Sri Lankan giant squirrel Leipzig has another defining species. Do the Vietnamese small flying fox and the Pallas long-tongued bat form a balance? The former is by all means rarer in Europe.

And what about the Pangolin? Nurnberg's manatee can't compete with this imo.

Waiting to see if herps could make another difference, but I'm leaning toward 4-1

 

[remar]

WIt's clear who wins on primates and carnivores, and with the Sri Lankan giant squirrel Leipzig has another defining species.

I'm not sure about the carnivores, depending on how subspecies are managed within the cup. Leizpig has giant otters, ocelots, fishing cats and sloth bears. Nürnberg has fishing cats, Asian lions, and yellow-throated marten (the last one are the wrong subspecies, so as mentioned, i'm not sure if they count for the category). The martens and fishing cats have world class exhibits, maybe the best for this species in Europe. Leipzigs giant otter exhibit is great, but the small cats exhibits are, like some more exhibits at Gondwanaland, rather small if i remember correctly.

And maybe the breeding Harpy eagles can compete with the pangolins

In general i have the feeling that the average tropical forest exhibit at Nürnberg is better than Leipzig. Therefore i think 4:1 for Leipzig is quite harsh for Nürnberg. 3:2 seems fair to me right now.

 

[Philipine eagle]

I'm not sure about the carnivores, depending on how subspecies are managed within the cup. Leizpig has giant otters, ocelots, fishing cats and sloth bears. Nürnberg has fishing cats, Asian lions, and yellow-throated marten (the last one are the wrong subspecies, so as mentioned, i'm not sure if they count for the category). The martens and fishing cats have world class exhibits, maybe the best for this species in Europe. Leipzigs giant otter exhibit is great, but the small cats exhibits are, like some more exhibits at Gondwanaland, rather small if i remember correctly.

And maybe the breeding Harpy eagles can compete with the pangolins

In general i have the feeling that the average tropical forest exhibit at Nürnberg is better than Leipzig. Therefore i think 4:1 for Leipzig is quite harsh for Nürnberg. 3:2 seems fair to me right now.

I think Nurnberg has the nortern subspecies of the Yellow-throated marten, and it is found on the Korean Peninsula, northern China and far eastern Russia. If this category were temperate forest rather than tropical forest, that enclosure could be a winner for Nurnberg. But I don't consider it for this match.

Fair remark about the Harpy eagle!

 

[remar]

I think Nurnberg has the nortern subspecies of the Yellow-throated marten, and it is found on the Korean Peninsula, northern China and far eastern Russia. If this category were temperate forest rather than tropical forest, that enclosure could be a winner for Nurnberg. But I don't consider it for this match.

One could also say, that the species is the most important benchmark within taxonomy and therefore the species and not the subspecies should count. Personally i think that both opinions are valid and i would love to hear @TeaLovingDave s thoughts about that topic. It is kind of similar to the elephants at last Cologne match but imo there's a bit of difference as this is about habitats and not geographic range.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

One could also say, that the species is the most important benchmark within taxonomy and therefore the species and not the subspecies should count. Personally i think that both opinions are valid and i would love to hear @TeaLovingDave s thoughts about that topic. It is kind of similar to the elephants at last Cologne match but imo there's a bit of difference as this is about habitats and not geographic range.

I think in cases like this the key point is what the exhibit is intended to represent - if a taxon is being displayed as a stand-in for the geographically-accurate taxon I think it would count (for instance, any given South American exhibit here in Europe which would have to use Yucatan Margay rather than one of the genuinely South American taxa).

In this case, however, the exhibit under discussion isn't "meant" to represent the taxa present in tropical forests, so wouldn't count.

And what about the Pangolin? Nurnberg's manatee can't compete with this imo.

I would actually make the perhaps-controversial argument that although the pangolin is the more unusual species, where exhibit quality is concerned the Nuremberg manatee exhibit is far superior to the Leipzig pangolin exhibit!

 

[Philipine eagle]

I would actually make the perhaps-controversial argument that although the pangolin is the more unusual species, where exhibit quality is concerned the Nuremberg manatee exhibit is far superior to the Leipzig pangolin exhibit!

I certainly agree with that, and it's not controversial at all, but I give greater (but not exclusive) importance to the species list (both in quantity and quality aka rarity) for this competition and only then exhibitry, certainly because this theme is quite general: 'tropical forests': would the 'fishing cat' enclosure in Nuremberg necessarily be better for this theme than the one in Leipzig? The latter is certainly more tropical than the outdoor enclosure in Nuremberg. If the theme had been 'tropical felids', I would choose Nuremberg, because it is larger and has more cover, but with the theme 'tropical forests' vegetation, temperature and humidity also play a role.

In addition, the Manateehaus in Nuremberg only shows 1 aspect of the theme, flooded Amazon forest, unlike Gondwanaland which is much more diverse, in terms of species, tropical regions, diurnal and nocturnal animals, etc.Of course, that doesn't mean it doesn't have its flaws, nor that my choice would mean I would undermine the quality of Nuremberg's exhibits.
Finally, it is Nuremberg's almost only exhibit that falls into this category (together with the Asiatic lions and the gorillas). In Leipzig there is also Pongoland, the bird house, the sloth bear canyon and a number of aquariums and terrariums.

All things considered, I think Leipzig clearly stands out in this category.

 

[AmazonianHippo]

I think this has been the most imbalanced match yet, so very clear the winner. Leipzig has the best indoor rainforest in Europe and arguably the best in the world. It is a thing of awe and with Pongoland as well it leaves Nuremberg needing to fill big boots. Nuremberg is great but it extremely lacks here, only really having the greenhouse for monkeys and sloths. I'm sorry but there is no other option than 5-0 Leipzig. Nuremberg is fantastic but it stands no chance.

 

[Philipine eagle]

Personally, I certainly don't think Gondwanaland is the best indoor rainforest in the world. For Europe, I already definitely prefer Burger's Bush and Zurich's Masoala. Although I can understand the lack of large mammals many do not prefer either of those.

 

[remar]

I think this has been the most imbalanced match yet, so very clear the winner. Leipzig has the best indoor rainforest in Europe and arguably the best in the world. It is a thing of awe and with Pongoland as well it leaves Nuremberg needing to fill big boots. Nuremberg is great but it extremely lacks here, only really having the greenhouse for monkeys and sloths. I'm sorry but there is no other option than 5-0 Leipzig. Nuremberg is fantastic but it stands no chance.

You should inform yourself better as Nürnberg doesn't keep sloths at all and maybe they offer nothing that outstanding like Leipzig, but still some very good exhibits across the whole zoo.

@Philipine eagle Leipzigs terrarium house is currently under reconstruction and should therefore not count.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Nuremberg is great but it extremely lacks here, only really having the greenhouse for monkeys and sloths.

What are the manatees and gorillas, scotch mist?

Personally, I certainly don't think Gondwanaland is the best indoor rainforest in the world. For Europe, I already definitely prefer Burger's Bush and Zurich's Masoala. Although I can understand the lack of large mammals many do not prefer either of those.

I wholeheartedly agree with you on this count - as an exhibit Gondwanaland has several failings which the other two houses do not possess in my opinion, and the other two are much more pleasant to spend time within.

Pongoland is also rather poor in certain regards, too!

@Philipine eagle Leipzigs terrarium house is currently under reconstruction and should therefore not count

Correct - for a start, it isn't merely being reconstructed or renovated but rather is being rebuilt from scratch.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I'd be interested to hear the thoughts of
@Rohin on this matter as the outlier vote

 

[Panda_Fan]

I'll just say that tho Nuremberg doesn't have much tropical animals, the ones they do have have good enclosures, the gorilla exhibit isn't bad (I dislike a bit the interior of their habitat, but that's just personal preference) and their manatee house and fishing cat enclosure is impressive! Leipzig has a great collection, but as many have said their Gondwanaland exhibits are a bit on the bad side and I do have to agree that tho spacious, their orangutan exhibit hasn't that many climbing oportunities. I could be easly persuaded to a 3:2 to Leipzig if someone does a good defense for Nuremberg, but for I'll keep it at 4:1.

 

[AmazonianHippo]

You should inform yourself better as Nürnberg doesn't keep sloths at all and maybe they offer nothing that outstanding like Leipzig, but still some very good exhibits across the whole zoo.

@Philipine eagle Leipzigs terrarium house is currently under reconstruction and should therefore not count.

Huh. I wonder where the sloths came from in my head? Thank you for your information though

 

[cornu aspersum]

I'd be interested to hear the thoughts of
@Rohin on this matter as the outlier vote

I haven't been to any of the two collections, so I probably won't be able to give an accurate view of things, but from what I've seen, Nuremberg trumps Leipzig on quality. I remember that you said that many of the animals in Gondwana Land can't use parts of their enclosures, and that it is one of the reasons that Leipzig is overrated, and from photos I've seen of it, it has a bit of a forced and theme park-y appearance.

Nuremberg's enclosures don't seem to be heavily (or at all) themed, and look very good to me. I know that the pangolins are a major asset to Leipzig and that the method to breed them has only been cracked relatively recently (at least in Europe), but for me personally, breeding harpy eagles and manatees are more significant. I have still given Leipzig two points because of their quantity and they do have good enclosures, but, personally, Nuremberg has the edge based on its enclosures, having ones of generally higher quality and overall feeling.