Australasian Western Lowland Gorilla Population

Zoofan15 said:
That was equally disappointing.

Adelaide were reportedly planning to exhibit a family/breeding troop of gorilla, so it’s no stretch to imagine a bachelor troop (comprised of male infants born in said troop) would later make its way to Monarto.

The export of Orana’s males to Sydney Zoo would have freed them up to bring in a breeding troop, which in turn could have supplied Taronga and Melbourne with adolescent females in the coming years. Orana’s financial situation played a role in these plans being cancelled sadly, but would have been of immeasurable benefit to the region.
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It's a pity that Orana's financial situation - along with the pandemic - derailed plans for a gorilla breeding troop in Christchurch, or even the acquisition of further bachelor males. Also, their original plans for acquiring Sumatran orangutans for the other portion of the Great Ape Centre seem to have gone by the wayside. The other habitat in the Great Ape Centre, I believe, is being used by the breeding pair of siamang gibbons and their infant, which does mean that the habitat is being put to good use, but a second great ape species would have been a massive drawcard for Orana, as witnessed by the popularity of Auckland Zoo's Bornean orangutans during their two-year stay. A breeding troop of gorillas would have greatly increased revenue for Orana, due to the chance to see baby gorillas.
 
ApeLadyNZ said:
It's a pity that Orana's financial situation - along with the pandemic - derailed plans for a gorilla breeding troop in Christchurch, or even the acquisition of further bachelor males. Also, their original plans for acquiring Sumatran orangutans for the other portion of the Great Ape Centre seem to have gone by the wayside. The other habitat in the Great Ape Centre, I believe, is being used by the breeding pair of siamang gibbons and their infant, which does mean that the habitat is being put to good use, but a second great ape species would have been a massive drawcard for Orana, as witnessed by the popularity of Auckland Zoo's Bornean orangutans during their two-year stay. A breeding troop of gorillas would have greatly increased revenue for Orana, due to the chance to see baby gorillas.
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That’s correct, the second exhibit in Orana’s Great Ape Centre is currently occupied by Siamang. I too would prefer to see a second great ape species held there. After all, it is a Great Ape Centre; not a Great Ape and Lesser Ape Centre.

Sumatran orangutan were the original plan for the second exhibit; with the breeding troop of gorilla possibly given access to both exhibits had they arrived. Long term, Orana bred males could have then formed a bachelor troop in the second exhibit.
 
Zoofan15 said:
That’s correct, the second exhibit in Orana’s Great Ape Centre is currently occupied by Siamang. I too would prefer to see a second great ape species held there. After all, it is a Great Ape Centre; not a Great Ape and Lesser Ape Centre.

Sumatran orangutan were the original plan for the second exhibit; with the breeding troop of gorilla possibly given access to both exhibits had they arrived. Long term, Orana bred males could have then formed a bachelor troop in the second exhibit.
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It will be interesting to see what Orana does regarding the gorillas going forward - whether they have any plans to acquire more gorillas or simply go on with just Fataki and Fuzu until one passes away. Even if the longed-for breeding troop never eventuates, Orana could still be a facility for more bachelors as was originally intended.
 
ApeLadyNZ said:
It will be interesting to see what Orana does regarding the gorillas going forward - whether they have any plans to acquire more gorillas or simply go on with just Fataki and Fuzu until one passes away. Even if the longed-for breeding troop never eventuates, Orana could still be a facility for more bachelors as was originally intended.
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I agree. The most logical way to proceed is to send Taronga’s adolescent males to Orana and then undertake an exchange between Taronga/Melbourne of Frala and Mbeli for Kanzi.

This would give those three zoos the following:

Taronga Zoo:

1.0 Kibali (25/03/2001) Yaounde x Moseka; Imported 2012
0.1 Johari (26/04/2000) Motoba x Julia
0.1 Kanzi (14/03/2015) Otana x Kimya

Melbourne Zoo:

1.0 Otana (28/01/2001) Kouillou x Tamba; Imported 2013
0.1 Frala (14/06/1981) Bongo x Mintha; Imported 1996
0.1 Mbeli (05/02/2003) Kibabu x Mouila

Orana Wildlife Park:

1.0 Fataki (24/05/2003) Kibabu x Frala
1.0 Fuzu (08/12/2007) Kibabu x Frala

1.0 Mjukuu (30/10/2014) Kibali x Mbeli
1.0 Fabumi (13/05/2015) Kibali x Frala
1.0 Mwamba (02/09/2017 Kibali x Mbeli

Worst case scenario, Orana could house their bachelor males in two troops across both exhibits; while Taronga and Melbourne would each have breeding troops of 1.2 (likely with only Mbeli and Kanzi breeding).
 
Zoofan15 said:
I agree. The most logical way to proceed is to send Taronga’s adolescent males to Orana and then undertake an exchange between Taronga/Melbourne of Frala and Mbeli for Kanzi.

This would give those three zoos the following:

Taronga Zoo:

1.0 Kibali (25/03/2001) Yaounde x Moseka; Imported 2012
0.1 Johari (26/04/2000) Motoba x Julia
0.1 Kanzi (14/03/2015) Otana x Kimya

Melbourne Zoo:

1.0 Otana (28/01/2001) Kouillou x Tamba; Imported 2013
0.1 Frala (14/06/1981) Bongo x Mintha; Imported 1996
0.1 Mbeli (05/02/2003) Kibabu x Mouila

Orana Wildlife Park:

1.0 Fataki (24/05/2003) Kibabu x Frala
1.0 Fuzu (08/12/2007) Kibabu x Frala

1.0 Mjukuu (30/10/2014) Kibali x Mbeli
1.0 Fabumi (13/05/2015) Kibali x Frala
1.0 Mwamba (02/09/2017 Kibali x Mbeli

Worst case scenario, Orana could house their bachelor males in two troops across both exhibits; while Taronga and Melbourne would each have breeding troops of 1.2 (likely with only Mbeli and Kanzi breeding).
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Yes, definitely this would make the most sense. New gorillas, even bachelors, would do a lot towards drawing in more visitors, and therefore revenue, for Orana (especially with one of those bachelors being a half-brother of the two incumbent males). And yes indeed, if the three newcomers didn't get on with Fataki and Fuzu, the gorillas could be split across the two halves of the Great Ape Centre.

Despite the siamang being an attraction in their own right, especially now they have little Berani, the Great Ape Centre should rightfully be occupied by great apes, as you've pointed out!
 
ApeLadyNZ said:
Yes, definitely this would make the most sense. New gorillas, even bachelors, would do a lot towards drawing in more visitors, and therefore revenue, for Orana (especially with one of those bachelors being a half-brother of the two incumbent males). And yes indeed, if the three newcomers didn't get on with Fataki and Fuzu, the gorillas could be split across the two halves of the Great Ape Centre.

Despite the siamang being an attraction in their own right, especially now they have little Berani, the Great Ape Centre should rightfully be occupied by great apes, as you've pointed out!
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Exactly. Not to mention, best case scenario, an integration of the five males may even be possible. The best chance of undertaking this would be before they reach adulthood, so with Mjukuu turning 11 years old this year, that window is closing.

Whether to breed from Frala again is the dilemma. Assuming she has no underlying medical issues I’m unaware of, then I’d argue breeding from her again (especially if she transfers to Melbourne) is in her best interests. Being a non-breeding female in a troop where the only other female is breeding wouldn’t be desirable. If she remains at Taronga, at least Johari is also non-breeding. Frala is 44 years old and assuming a typical female lifespan of 50-55 years, she would likely live to see her offspring reach adolescence and enjoy the benefits having an infant brings.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Exactly. Not to mention, best case scenario, an integration of the five males may even be possible. The best chance of undertaking this would be before they reach adulthood, so with Mjukuu turning 11 years old this year, that window is closing.

Whether to breed from Frala again is the dilemma. Assuming she has no underlying medical issues I’m unaware of, then I’d argue breeding from her again (especially if she transfers to Melbourne) is in her best interests. Being a non-breeding female in a troop where the only other female is breeding wouldn’t be desirable. If she remains at Taronga, at least Johari is also non-breeding. Frala is 44 years old and assuming a typical female lifespan of 50-55 years, she would likely live to see her offspring reach adolescence and enjoy the benefits having an infant brings.
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Yes, absolutely. If the three Taronga adolescents could be integrated with Fataki and Fuzu, that would be a definite win for Orana.

As for Frala, as you've mentioned, barring any medical issues there's no reason why she couldn't breed again. If her infant was a female, she would be valuable for the breeding programme, and if the infant was male, he could possibly still be valuable as a drawcard if he gets transferred to Orana someday.
 
ApeLadyNZ said:
Yes, absolutely. If the three Taronga adolescents could be integrated with Fataki and Fuzu, that would be a definite win for Orana.

As for Frala, as you've mentioned, barring any medical issues there's no reason why she couldn't breed again. If her infant was a female, she would be valuable for the breeding programme, and if the infant was male, he could possibly still be valuable as a drawcard if he gets transferred to Orana someday.
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Arguably the greatest value in Frala producing a male infant in Orana’s troop would be to accompany male offspring of Mbeli in transitioning into a bachelor troop. The odds of Mbeli having a male infant are 50:50, so the odds of her having two male infants are 25%. At least two male infants would be needed to form a troop with Otana, so having two breeding females would offer better chances of this than one.

Otherwise, a female infant sired by Otana would have numerous applications within the region.
 
Trua said:
@Zoofan15 I know this isn't an orangutan forum but you touched on Orana's orangutans: why didn't they end up receiving those Sumatrans?
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I believe it was for financial constraints. The idea was they’d receive Sumatrans after the return of Auckland Zoo’s trio of orangutans in 2020; but by then Covid had hit and so these plans were put on indefinite hold.
 
Zoofan15 said:
I believe it was for financial constraints. The idea was they’d receive Sumatrans after the return of Auckland Zoo’s trio of orangutans in 2020; but by then Covid had hit and so these plans were put on indefinite hold.
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It’s a big shame that financial restraints prevented Orana from acquiring potentially two breeding groups of Great apes from overseas. Both of which would’ve likely been great help to the regional breeding program.

Especially the gorillas - the silverback was apparently Nasibu from Rotterdam, who is now in a breeding group in Spain. The females would’ve likely came from Europe too and would’ve provided the additional genetics that our region desperately needs.
 
Jambo said:
It’s a big shame that financial restraints prevented Orana from acquiring potentially two breeding groups of Great apes from overseas. Both of which would’ve likely been great help to the regional breeding program.

Especially the gorillas - the silverback was apparently Nasibu from Rotterdam, who is now in a breeding group in Spain. The females would’ve likely came from Europe too and would’ve provided the additional genetics that our region desperately needs.
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It’s a great shame Nasibu and the females (mostly like two) were never imported. Aside from the benefits of establishing a fourth breeding troop in the region, the females would have likely been unrelated to the females we have in the region - who all descend from the Apenheul line.

As a region, we’ve imported a number of males - the three breeding silverbacks are all European imports, but no females have been imported since the 1990’s.
 
Zoofan15 said:
It’s a great shame Nasibu and the females (mostly like two) were never imported. Aside from the benefits of establishing a fourth breeding troop in the region, the females would have likely been unrelated to the females we have in the region - who all descend from the Apenheul line.

As a region, we’ve imported a number of males - the three breeding silverbacks are all European imports, but no females have been imported since the 1990’s.
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It would’ve made zero sense to further acquire females from the Apenhaul line - so I do agree with you. There’s plenty of females from other well represented lines that the EEP could afford to offload.
 
Jambo said:
It would’ve made zero sense to further acquire females from the Apenhaul line - so I do agree with you. There’s plenty of females from other well represented lines that the EEP could afford to offload.
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Even the Jambo/Nandi/N’Pongo line would be a good addition to the region. We have Motaba of course, but he’s retired from breeding and it’s unlikely his Australian based offspring will ever breed.

Descendants of his eldest son Buzandi; or of Motaba’s siblings/half-siblings could be an option. I believe you previously proposed these females:

0.1 Anandi (13/11/2015) Buzandi x Kathrin
0.1 Tara (22/04/2017) Buzandi x Melima
 
Zoofan15 said:
Even the Jambo/Nandi/N’Pongo line would be a good addition to the region. We have Motaba of course, but he’s retired from breeding and it’s unlikely his Australian based offspring will ever breed.

Descendants of his eldest son Buzandi; or of Motaba’s siblings/half-siblings could be an option. I believe you previously proposed these females:

0.1 Anandi (13/11/2015) Buzandi x Kathrin
0.1 Tara (22/04/2017) Buzandi x Melima
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Both Hannover girls still remain in their maternal troop, so yes both would still be prime candidates for import; especially to Melbourne.
 
Zoofan15 said:
I agree. The most logical way to proceed is to send Taronga’s adolescent males to Orana and then undertake an exchange between Taronga/Melbourne of Frala and Mbeli for Kanzi.

This would give those three zoos the following:

Taronga Zoo:

1.0 Kibali (25/03/2001) Yaounde x Moseka; Imported 2012
0.1 Johari (26/04/2000) Motoba x Julia
0.1 Kanzi (14/03/2015) Otana x Kimya

Melbourne Zoo:

1.0 Otana (28/01/2001) Kouillou x Tamba; Imported 2013
0.1 Frala (14/06/1981) Bongo x Mintha; Imported 1996
0.1 Mbeli (05/02/2003) Kibabu x Mouila

Orana Wildlife Park:

1.0 Fataki (24/05/2003) Kibabu x Frala
1.0 Fuzu (08/12/2007) Kibabu x Frala

1.0 Mjukuu (30/10/2014) Kibali x Mbeli
1.0 Fabumi (13/05/2015) Kibali x Frala
1.0 Mwamba (02/09/2017 Kibali x Mbeli

Worst case scenario, Orana could house their bachelor males in two troops across both exhibits; while Taronga and Melbourne would each have breeding troops of 1.2 (likely with only Mbeli and Kanzi breeding).
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why is Mogo not taken into account? Or Werribee?
Australia needs to maintain / retain some bachelors as contingency incase a breeding male passes away

dies Sydney zoo still want to hold Gorilla?
 
scallywag2024 said:
why is Mogo not taken into account? Or Werribee?
Australia needs to maintain / retain some bachelors as contingency incase a breeding male passes away

dies Sydney zoo still want to hold Gorilla?
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That post wasn’t a comprehensive list of my recommendations for Australasian gorilla holders. I merely addressed the most pressing issues within the region - namely Taronga’s need to transition three adolescent bachelor males out of the troop; and Melbourne’s urgent need for females.

Mogo would benefit from an additional female long-term (their senior gorillas aren’t getting any younger); but recent attempts to import a female from Europe hit a hitch and with a new infant in the troop, they may delay bringing in a new female for the short-term.

I heard speculation last year Sydney Zoo wish to acquire gorillas in the future; but no concrete plans as of yet.
 
Visited Werribee's facility for the first time on monday, do they only hold a bachelor group? Was stoked to see them as I didnt get a glimpse of Melbourne Zoo's silverback this time round.
 
Sam.S said:
Visited Werribee's facility for the first time on monday, do they only hold a bachelor group? Was stoked to see them as I didnt get a glimpse of Melbourne Zoo's silverback this time round.
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They do only hold a bachelor group. Three males from Melbourne's former breeding group; Motaba (1983) and his two songs, Yakini (1999) and Ganyeka (2000).

That's a shame you didn't get to see Otana at Melbourne. At times, he likes hanging out at the back of the exhibit, so can be seen there before exiting the gorilla trail.
 
Jambo said:
They do only hold a bachelor group. Three males from Melbourne's former breeding group; Motaba (1983) and his two songs, Yakini (1999) and Ganyeka (2000).

That's a shame you didn't get to see Otana at Melbourne. At times, he likes hanging out at the back of the exhibit, so can be seen there before exiting the gorilla trail.
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Yes it was a bummer, but being my 4th time at the zoo i've been plenty fortunate to be graced by his presence on prior visits!
 
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