Bronx Zoo Should the Bronx Zoo keep elephants?

[Don Majeski]

Very late to the thread so maybe this has been thought of already, but personally if the monorail is discontinued then I believe the zoo should build and overhead bridge for guests to walk over the exhibits, and I believe they should turn the exhibits in rotational yards, where Asian elephants, asian rhino, gaur, and the deer could all rotate. They could also make a single massive barn that could hold all the animals (in separate stalls of course), and have the hoofstock mix with the gaur and rhinos. If its too much to keep then I would suggest phasing out the Indian Rhinos and having the gaur and elephants rotate; possibly give the deer free access between all the yards to mix with elpehants or gar at their own choosing. Elephants imo are too important and iconic a species for Bronx to lose, I think they're absolutely a worthy investment.

The Bronx Zoo should maintain elephants at any cost.
The public - through private endowments, taxes , memberships , sponsorships or memberships , funds the zoo.
Monies don’t manifest themselves from thin air.
I can not imagine any zoo goer who would not want elephants - that have been part of NY zoo collections since the 1850s
At one time three NYC zoos - Bronx, Prospect Park and Central Park - maintained elephants .
This reflected what the directors - albeit non zoologists in case of PPZ and CPZ of those collections felt the public - without whom there would be no zoos wanted to see - and they gave it to them At the time admission to COZ and PPZ was free
The problem was not the specie exhibited but THE MANNER in which they were exhibited
Had PPZ and CPZ had a 15 acre exterior exhibit with a climatically controlled indoor exhibit - there would have been no problem maintaining elephants - but - heaven forbid!!!- “YOUR TAKING MY SOFTBALL FIELD ( Among the thousand or so already in NYC) AWAY FROM ME!”-
I have been going to the Bronx Zoo since I was 3 and ABSOLUTELY they should maintain elephants .
They can maintain a separate admission - as they donJungle World and Wild Asia to view them, if necessary

 

[ZCChip]

The Bronx Zoo should maintain elephants at any cost.
The public - through private endowments, taxes , memberships , sponsorships or memberships , funds the zoo.
Monies don’t manifest themselves from thin air.
I can not imagine any zoo goer who would not want elephants - that have been part of NY zoo collections since the 1850s
At one time three NYC zoos - Bronx, Prospect Park and Central Park - maintained elephants .
This reflected what the directors - albeit non zoologists in case of PPZ and CPZ of those collections felt the public - without whom there would be no zoos wanted to see - and they gave it to them At the time admission to COZ and PPZ was free
The problem was not the specie exhibited but THE MANNER in which they were exhibited
Had PPZ and CPZ had a 15 acre exterior exhibit with a climatically controlled indoor exhibit - there would have been no problem maintaining elephants - but - heaven forbid!!!- “YOUR TAKING MY SOFTBALL FIELD ( Among the thousand or so already in NYC) AWAY FROM ME!”-
I have been going to the Bronx Zoo since I was 3 and ABSOLUTELY they should maintain elephants .
They can maintain a separate admission - as they donJungle World and Wild Asia to view them, if necessary

Then write them and tell them. Especially the director. Tell them you would like to see them hold a bachelor herd. That would excite people even from the monorail. That would have more energy than two older cows standing apart.

 

[KiwiBirb]

I personally really don’t see a way the that the zoo keeps elephants after Happy and Patty pass. While I would love to see them make a new exhibit for the elephants, I just don’t see that happening with the current budget, space, and masterplan. While they are an irreplaceable species, the zoo already has avoided using them for marketing, focusing on other mainstay ABC species like Giraffe, Gorillas, and Tigers.

 

[ZCChip]

I personally really don’t see a way the that the zoo keeps elephants after Happy and Patty pass. While I would love to see them make a new exhibit for the elephants, I just don’t see that happening with the current budget, space, and masterplan. While they are an irreplaceable species, the zoo already has avoided using them for marketing, focusing on other mainstay ABC species like Giraffe, Gorillas, and Tigers.

they do not need to create a new exhibit. The current one will work well for three young bulls. There are three stalls in a barn being shared with the rhino(s). They already have a chute specifically for elephants and PC set up. Staff is already familiar with PC. They just might need to modify the enclosures for bulls in musth.

 

[ZCChip]

Additionally. Isn’t their rhino(s) Asian? That would be weird with the African theme.

 

[KiwiBirb]

they do not need to create a new exhibit. The current one will work well for three young bulls. There are three stalls in a barn being shared with the rhino(s). They already have a chute specifically for elephants and PC set up. Staff is already familiar with PC. They just might need to modify the enclosures for bulls in musth.

I definitely understand the argument you’re trying to make but if they brought in new elephants, even a bachelor herd, they definitely need to give them more space. This would likely cut into the Indian Rhinoceros enclosure, a species which the Bronx is still committed to. Although I do agree if there is any universe where elephants stay in the Bronx, this is most likely

 

[Don Majeski]

Then write them and tell them. Especially the director. Tell them you would like to see them hold a bachelor herd. That would excite people even from the monorail. That would have more energy than two older cows standing apart.

I agree
San Diego a bachelor Loxodonta and Asian elephants as well
NOTHING is a greater advertisement for conservation than the site of a living, breathing elephant - in the flesh .
The greatest ambassador for wildlife conservation there is.
Tbe first site of the Forest elephant at the Bronx Zoo made me a lifelong devotee to wildlife and zoos . Like watching Mickey Mantle hit a home run or Muhammad Ali score a KO - all of which I’ve been privileged to bear eye witness
If a picture is worth a thousand words- a living elephant is worth a million

 

[ZCChip]

I definitely understand the argument you’re trying to make but if they brought in new elephants, even a bachelor herd, they definitely need to give them more space. This would likely cut into the Indian Rhinoceros enclosure, a species which the Bronx is still committed to. Although I do agree if there is any universe where elephants stay in the Bronx, this is most likely

how much outdoor space does the elephants and rhino(s) have exactly? They could always alternate habitats. Last I know they have only one rhino.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

how much outdoor space does the elephants and rhino(s) have exactly? They could always alternate habitats. Last I know they have only one rhino.

Bronx has around 5 Indian Rhinos. Most are in off-show yards.

they do not need to create a new exhibit. The current one will work well for three young bulls. There are three stalls in a barn being shared with the rhino(s). They already have a chute specifically for elephants and PC set up. Staff is already familiar with PC. They just might need to modify the enclosures for bulls in musth.

I entirely disagree that the current set-up is satisfactory for a herd of bull elephants, or any herd for that matter. It's not the worst exhibit, but it does leave quite a bit to be desired. The zoo absolutely should update its facilities if it's to continue holding elephants.

I personally really don’t see a way the that the zoo keeps elephants after Happy and Patty pass. While I would love to see them make a new exhibit for the elephants, I just don’t see that happening with the current budget, space, and masterplan. While they are an irreplaceable species, the zoo already has avoided using them for marketing, focusing on other mainstay ABC species like Giraffe, Gorillas, and Tigers.

I personally don't see how the zoo keeps the monorail open for much longer if the elephants go. The elephants are the star of that attraction.

~Thylo

 

[Don Majeski]

Bronx has around 5 Indian Rhinos. Most are in off-show yards.

Well they would still have rhinos and tigers -which are “show species”
The only substitutes I could imagine replacing elephants and keeping within the “Asian” /Oriental zoogeographic zine would be Giant pandas or orangutan - with the former being a virtual impossibility
As you know Zoo Center - when repurposed from the original (1908) , “”Elephant House” was primarily envisioned as an elephant exhibit but it was poorly executed
They certainly could expand the exhibit to encompass the current elephant holding areas - rebuilt and expanded, of course- to allow foot traffic to see the animals throughout the year
I also heard that Gaur are being phased out of AZA. A reduced herd leaves more room for elephants as well

Insofar as closing the mono rail I do not think the loss of elephants - which you view for - at most three minutes - would have that great an effect on most people who , generally , just go along “for the ride@ and not question whether or not Panthera Altaica or Panthera Corbetti is on display today

 

[KiwiBirb]

I personally don't see how the zoo keeps the monorail open for much longer if the elephants go. The elephants are the star of that attraction.

~Thylo

I haven’t really thought about it but you’re right. Unfortunately I still do think the zoo’s future plans don’t include elephants. The only other animal I could think of that would draw similar crowds would be a Panda, but I think the WCS has made their stance on that pretty clear. There’s still fortunately still a few more years before both the elephants die and a couple more years after that so hopefully they can figure something out.

 

[Chlidonias]

NOTHING is a greater advertisement for conservation than the site of a living, breathing elephant - in the flesh .
The greatest ambassador for wildlife conservation there is.

For you.

You repeatedly in this thread take your personal individual experience and claim - indeed, state it as a fact, as above - that therefore everybody should be the exact same. It is a completely false connection. There are probably tens of thousands of conservationists around the world who never saw an elephant when becoming so directed towards their calling.

My personal individual experience is that seeing an elephant is entirely irrelevant.

 

[StoppableSan]

Well they would still have rhinos and tigers -which are “show species”
The only substitutes I could imagine replacing elephants and keeping within the “Asian” /Oriental zoogeographic zine would be Giant pandas or orangutan - with the former being a virtual impossibility
As you know Zoo Center - when repurposed from the original (1908) , “”Elephant House” was primarily envisioned as an elephant exhibit but it was poorly executed
They certainly could expand the exhibit to encompass the current elephant holding areas - rebuilt and expanded, of course- to allow foot traffic to see the animals throughout the year
I also heard that Gaur are being phased out of AZA. A reduced herd leaves more room for elephants as well

Insofar as closing the mono rail I do not think the loss of elephants - which you view for - at most three minutes - would have that great an effect on most people who , generally , just go along “for the ride@ and not question whether or not Panthera Altaica or Panthera Corbetti is on display today

Bronx is going against the AZA grain by going all-in on gaur, and that exhibit isn't really well-suited to being repurposed for elephants.

 

[Great Argus]

When you consider the WCS would probably end up spending more money on court fees and defending themselves on the PR side of things trying to bring in new elephants than they already are, I really don't see any benefit for Bronx to try and stick with elephants. Incredibly unfortunate that's the situation, but for a zoo with relatively limited resources it does not make sense to keep up that expense. The hammering isn't going to stop and Bronx is not the best equipped to deal with it financially or with local political climate.

 

[KiwiBirb]

Well they would still have rhinos and tigers -which are “show species”
The only substitutes I could imagine replacing elephants and keeping within the “Asian” /Oriental zoogeographic zine would be Giant pandas or orangutan - with the former being a virtual impossibility
As you know Zoo Center - when repurposed from the original (1908) , “”Elephant House” was primarily envisioned as an elephant exhibit but it was poorly executed
They certainly could expand the exhibit to encompass the current elephant holding areas - rebuilt and expanded, of course- to allow foot traffic to see the animals throughout the year
I also heard that Gaur are being phased out of AZA. A reduced herd leaves more room for elephants as well

Orangutans sounds like a great idea, but I have no idea how practical it is (literally I have zero clue if this could work or not.) Something else I was thinking is maybe bringing in more carnivores like an asiatic Bear or Amur Leopard.

As for repurposing the monorail to be a boardwalk or something of that nature, I have shared how impractical it is in the Monorail thread last year.
Bronx Zoo monorail discussion [Bronx Zoo]

 

[StoppableSan]

For you.

You repeatedly in this thread take your personal individual experience and claim - indeed, state it as a fact, as above - that therefore everybody should be the exact same. It is a completely false connection. There are probably tens of thousands of conservationists around the world who never saw an elephant when becoming so directed towards their calling.

My personal individual experience is that seeing an elephant is entirely irrelevant.

Everyone isn't the exact same by any metric when it comes to what got them to love animals/wildlife conservation. That being said, there are more people than one would expect who saw an elephant in person, which led to that being their calling. Some of the people I've met on my field study were directly inspired by seeing an elephant to go into wildlife conservation. To reiterate, not saying that has to apply to everyone by any metric, but I do know several examples firsthand. Regardless, an all-hands-on-deck approach when it comes to wildlife conservation can only lead to the best possible result for the good of the planet.

When you consider the WCS would probably end up spending more money on court fees and defending themselves on the PR side of things trying to bring in new elephants than they already are, I really don't see any benefit for Bronx to try and stick with elephants. Incredibly unfortunate that's the situation, but for a zoo with relatively limited resources it does not make sense to keep up that expense. The hammering isn't going to stop and Bronx is not the best equipped to deal with it financially or with local political climate.

I've seen PR turnarounds from much worse situations; for example, San Antonio Zoo with Lucky's situation and the successful introduction of other elephants with Karen and Nicole.

Happy and Patty are relics of a *long* bygone era of elephant management. Because elephants live so long and Happy and Patty's temperaments are the way they are, those were the cards that WCS was dealt. Two elephants who hate each others' guts to the point that you'll only see one elephant out on exhibit, and if Happy or Patty choose not to go on exhibit for a while, out come the torches and pitchforks.

More than anything, there's a quandary when it comes to communication - Bronx can't openly talk about Happy and Patty without slopaganda/slacktivists flooding the zone, but that being said, more people have understood Happy and Patty's situation than one would expect *because* of The Zoo's episode. Coming across as trying nothing and being all out of ideas doesn't solve anything when it comes to PR.

 

[Don Majeski]

For you.

You repeatedly in this thread take your personal individual experience and claim - indeed, state it as a fact, as above - that therefore everybody should be the exact same. It is a completely false connection. There are probably tens of thousands of conservationists around the world who never saw an elephant when becoming so directed towards their calling.

My personal individual experience is that seeing an elephant is entirely irrelevant.

Well, you’re entitled to your own personal experience and inspiration. No one can take that away from you or me.
I can only spoke for myself and to others

 

[Astrotom3000]

I also agree that the current elephant exhibit is not spacious enough for even a bachelor herd; it's not even an acre in size! And there's a sizable pool included in that as well.

Honestly, I just don't see how Bronx can continue to comfortably exhibit elephants (once their current pair of females pass away) that meet modern day requirements for both exhibit and herd size without some sort of expansion and possible encroachment of neighboring habitats, especially since they apparently share their barn with the rhinos (in theory, they could combine it with the similarly-sized Indian Rhino exhibit next door, but this would obviously require phasing out the rhinos, so that's not happening). Not to mention all the stubborn clout-chasing slacktivists that would inevitably crawl out of the woodwork even if it were the best elephant exhibit in the world.

Would it even be worth it when the animals are locked behind a constantly-moving upcharge attraction that isn't even open 5 months of the year? Sure, Bronx could go the Minnesota route of converting the Monorail into a boardwalk, but as I mentioned in my review thread, that would be an extreme time and energy sink in a zoo that is already stacked to the high heavens and presses its visitors for time with its relatively short operating days.

It's a shame, because the whole Wild Asia complex is brilliant and Bronx is one of the few zoos that definitely has the space to do something great with elephants. Something that most urban zoos cannot attest to.

 

[Don Majeski]

I also agree that the current elephant exhibit is not spacious enough for even a bachelor herd; it's not even an acre in size! And there's a sizable pool included in that as well.

Honestly, I just don't see how Bronx can continue to comfortably exhibit elephants (once their current pair of females pass away) that meet modern day requirements for both exhibit and herd size without some sort of expansion and possible encroachment of neighboring habitats, especially since they apparently share their barn with the rhinos (in theory, they could combine it with the similarly-sized Indian Rhino exhibit next door, but this would obviously require phasing out the rhinos, so that's not happening). Not to mention all the stubborn clout-chasing slacktivists that would inevitably crawl out of the woodwork even if it were the best elephant exhibit in the world.

Would it even be worth it when the animals are locked behind a constantly-moving upcharge attraction that isn't even open 5 months of the year? Sure, Bronx could go the Minnesota route of converting the Monorail into a boardwalk, but as I mentioned in my review thread, that would be an extreme time and energy sink in a zoo that is already stacked to the high heavens and presses its visitors for time with its relatively short operating days.

It's a shame, because the whole Wild Asia complex is brilliant and Bronx is one of the few zoos that definitely has the space to do something great with elephants. Something that most urban zoos cannot attest to.

They COULD build a: seoerate facility dedicated to elephants outside of Wild Asia - that was the original intention of the transitioning of the Elephant house to Zoo Center.
That went awry . Why ?
Not large enough
COULD they build an elephant facility at the cost of tens of millions of dollars ? YES
WOULD they build an exclusive elephant facility at the cost of tens of millions of dollars? THAT is a different question
Would the membership of WCS contribute to the building of elephant facility from their own pockets ?
SHOULD - IF they want to maintain elephants in New York City for their own selfish means? ( I would!). Yes!
WILL they? Questionable

 

[StoppableSan]

I also agree that the current elephant exhibit is not spacious enough for even a bachelor herd; it's not even an acre in size! And there's a sizable pool included in that as well.

Honestly, I just don't see how Bronx can continue to comfortably exhibit elephants (once their current pair of females pass away) that meet modern day requirements for both exhibit and herd size without some sort of expansion and possible encroachment of neighboring habitats, especially since they apparently share their barn with the rhinos (in theory, they could combine it with the similarly-sized Indian Rhino exhibit next door, but this would obviously require phasing out the rhinos, so that's not happening). Not to mention all the stubborn clout-chasing slacktivists that would inevitably crawl out of the woodwork even if it were the best elephant exhibit in the world.

Would it even be worth it when the animals are locked behind a constantly-moving upcharge attraction that isn't even open 5 months of the year? Sure, Bronx could go the Minnesota route of converting the Monorail into a boardwalk, but as I mentioned in my review thread, that would be an extreme time and energy sink in a zoo that is already stacked to the high heavens and presses its visitors for time with its relatively short operating days.

It's a shame, because the whole Wild Asia complex is brilliant and Bronx is one of the few zoos that definitely has the space to do something great with elephants. Something that most urban zoos cannot attest to.

I don't think they'd necessarily encroach on the rhino space seeing as the first meadow with the deer and blackbuck would be a much easier expansion opportunity - a modular transfer chute linking up the offshow yards as well as a modern barn big enough to house both the elephants and rhinos (precedent with shared barns with Columbus until Brian the Indian rhino was moved out and Fort Worth). Bronx wouldn't even have to sacrifice the deer to expand the elephant exhibit, if anything, this could be an Asian equivalent to Giants of the Savanna.

I think weirdly the seasonality of the monorail could work in Bronx's favor from a welfare perspective, if they emphasized that the WCS is a nonprofit and also emphasized how the elephants have the choice to go wherever they like, that's two arguments out the window. All things considered, they don't need to reinvent the wheel in terms of the transformative things they could do for elephants.