The other de-extinction: Should zoos handle proxy rewilding?

[La Cucaracha]

Outdated info, all bison have cattle DNA.



Uh... the AZA, ZAA, and the EAZA admit that there's domestic horse blood in the Przewalski's horse.

Why else do you think that they all collectively decided to stop maintaining two breeding lines of Przewalski's once DNA testing made it clearly apparent that both lines had domestic horse DNA. Hell, the supposedly "purebred" line ended up having more domestic horse admixture than the "impure" line did!

Colossal Biosciences continues to lie to the public about what their GMO gray wolves actually are.



Lol, there's significantly more domestic horse blood in the P-Horse than from just that one founder. There's the Mongolian foster mare and the Askania-Nova hybrids as well!

Have a more recent article, I suppose.
Genetic Diversity of Wind Cave's Bison Herd (U.S. National Park Service)

"Bison herds tend to be small, which makes statistically confident results difficult, so further testing should be conducted for some federal herds. Wind Cave and Yellowstone National Parks are the only two federal herds to have population sizes large enough for sufficient testing. Both herds show no evidence of cattle introgression."

The Przewalski's horse is actually more closely related to domestic horses than to extinct horses famously depicted on cave walls.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

Have a more recent article, I suppose.
Genetic Diversity of Wind Cave's Bison Herd (U.S. National Park Service)

"Bison herds tend to be small, which makes statistically confident results difficult, so further testing should be conducted for some federal herds. Wind Cave and Yellowstone National Parks are the only two federal herds to have population sizes large enough for sufficient testing. Both herds show no evidence of cattle introgression."

Yep, all outdated info. Take took of when the link I posted was published: 2022. Now take note of the citations at the bottom of the article that you posted: 2010, 2007, 2006, 2017, and 2019.

Disappointing to see a governmental webpage be so outdated.

The Przewalski's horse is actually more closely related to domestic horses than to what's famously depicted on cave walls.

If you're talking about that one study that proclaimed them to be the feral descendants of ancient domesticated horses, that's been disproven relatively recently as well.

 

[La Cucaracha]

Yep, all outdated info. Take took of when the link I posted was published: 2022. Now take note of the citations at the bottom of the article that you posted: 2010, 2007, 2006, 2017, and 2019.

Disappointing to see a governmental webpage be so outdated.



If you're talking about that one study that proclaimed them to be the feral descendants of ancient domesticated horses, that's been disproven relatively recently as well.

This article was last updated in 2024.

I'm actually talking about the Iberian horse study, not the Botai horse one. Two different studies.
https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(19)30384-8

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

This article was last updated in 2024.

Okay, and? The research that it cites is still outdated. Makes it even more baffling that it hasn't been updated to reflect that all living bison have cattle DNA IMHO.

This article was last updated in 2024.

I'm actually talking about the Iberian horse study, not the Botai horse one. Two different studies.
https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(19)30384-8

That's interesting, but it literally cites the Botai study. It's also from 2019, while the study that debunked the Botai study is from 2021.

I mean this kindly, but your researching skills need work.

 

[La Cucaracha]

Okay, and? The research that it cites is still outdated. Makes it even more baffling that it hasn't been updated to reflect that all living bison have cattle DNA IMHO.



That's interesting, but it literally cites the Botai study. It's also from 2019, while the study that debunked the Botai study is from 2021.

I mean this kindly, but your researching skills need work.

The study you were referring to only tested one individual from Wind Cave National Park. The article I shared in response specifically says more extensive testing on the herd is needed, and I agree based on the sampling.

It does cite the Botai study in the body, but I'm not sure that actually changes the findings specifically. We both agree the Botai hypothesis is wrong.

 

[La Cucaracha]

I don't believe Przewalski's horses are either the ancestors or descendants of domestic horses. But I digress.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

The study you were referring to only tested one individual from Wind Cave National Park. The article I shared in response specifically says more extensive testing on the herd is needed, and I agree based on the sampling.

"In 1913, the American Bison Society sent 14 bison from the New York Zoological Gardens (now the Bronx Zoo) to Wind Cave. An additional six bison were sent to the park in 1916 from Yellowstone National Park. It is from these bison that Wind Cave's herd is descended from." - here.

The founders of the Bronx Zoo's bison herd were sourced from private owners, who had in turn purchased their founding herds from ranchers who had experimented with bison/cattle hybridization. The cattle blood was already present long before the bison was reintroduced from Wind Cave.

(And the Yellowstone herd? Supplemented with privately-owned bison. Which came directly from a rancher who was known to hybridize. This also occurred prior to the Wind Cave herds establishment.)

We both agree the Botai hypothesis is wrong.

Then why have you been arguing with me?

 

[La Cucaracha]

"In 1913, the American Bison Society sent 14 bison from the New York Zoological Gardens (now the Bronx Zoo) to Wind Cave. An additional six bison were sent to the park in 1916 from Yellowstone National Park. It is from these bison that Wind Cave's herd is descended from." - here.

The founders of the Bronx Zoo's bison herd were sourced from private owners, who had in turn purchased their founding herds from ranchers who had experimented with bison/cattle hybridization. The cattle blood was already present long before the bison was reintroduced from Wind Cave.

(And the Yellowstone herd? Supplemented with privately-owned bison. Which came directly from a rancher who was known to hybridize. This also occurred prior to the Wind Cave herds establishment.)

It's worth noting the introgression of cattle genes that was tested in the Yellowstone was quite low overall compared to the other herds.

"Then why have you been arguing with me?

You're the one arguing with me on that one, again.
Also not to be like "akschually" but I do find it interesting that Przewalski's horses were rewilded in Spain recently given they're not really more closely related to the horses that were endemic there.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

It's worth noting the introgression of cattle genes that was tested in the Yellowstone was quite low overall compared to the other herds.

Yes? I was already aware of that?

You're the one arguing with me on that one, again.

Because you didn't make your stance clear. I was under the impression that you were uninformed about the Botai horses study being debunked.

but I do find it interesting that Przewalski's horses were rewilded in Spain recently given they're not really more closely related to the horses that were endemic there.

Given that the original indigenous horses are extinct Rewilding Europe had to replace them with something, and it might as well be an actual wild species.

Plus it's helpful from a legal prospective. Rewilding Europe's own horse rewilding guide mentions that since horses are legally classed as livestock under EU law, there's a legal obligation to, well... intervene with them. You know, feed them during harsh weather events, treat injuries, remove carcasses, etc and so forth.

None of which is ideal for rewilding projects, so, by using Przewalski's instead of domestic horses, Rewilding Europe can bypass those legal obligations. As EU law recognizes Przewalski's as wildlife, not livestock.

 

[OkapiJohn]

Some European conservationists are grieved about wisent being hybridized with American bison, but ultimately the results are better fertility and calf survival.

Where the hell did you come up with this? The European Bison is not hybridised with the American Bison.
Stop spreading misinformation.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

Where the hell did you come up with this? The European Bison is not hybridised with the American Bison.
Stop spreading misinformation.

In all fairness to @La Cucaracha, perhaps they're referring to the population in the Caucasus mountains. Those wisent are hybrids with bison.

 

[OkapiJohn]

In all fairness to @La Cucaracha, perhaps they're referring to the population in the Caucasus mountains. Those wisent are hybrids with bison.

The remaining 19 animals of the species were made up of two subspecies of European Bison, the caucasian subspecies and the lowland subspecies. There was only a single animal from the caucasian species. What was decided back then was to create two lineages, the caucasian-lowland line and the pure lowland line. There is a population of hybrids between two subspecies of wisent. But just that. And all the research on that topic, that I am aware of, indicates that the caucasian-lowland line may suffer more of outbreeding depression than the lowland line. https://www.wwf.pl/sites/default/files/2019-09/Action Plan_Pucek et al..pdf

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

The remaining 19 animals of the species were made up of two subspecies of European Bison, the caucasian subspecies and the lowland subspecies. There was only a single animal from the caucasian species. What was decided back then was to create two lineages, the caucasian-lowland line and the pure lowland line. There is a population of hybrids between two subspecies of wisent. But just that. And all the research on that topic, that I am aware of, indicates that the caucasian-lowland line may suffer more of outbreeding depression than the lowland line. https://www.wwf.pl/sites/default/files/2019-09/Action Plan_Pucek et al..pdf

Yes, I was aware of all of that.

 

[La Cucaracha]

Yes? I was already aware of that?



Because you didn't make your stance clear. I was under the impression that you were uninformed about the Botai horses study being debunked.



Given that the original indigenous horses are extinct Rewilding Europe had to replace them with something, and it might as well be an actual wild species.

Plus it's helpful from a legal prospective. Rewilding Europe's own horse rewilding guide mentions that since horses are legally classed as livestock under EU law, there's a legal obligation to, well... intervene with them. You know, feed them during harsh weather events, treat injuries, remove carcasses, etc and so forth.

None of which is ideal for rewilding projects, so, by using Przewalski's instead of domestic horses, Rewilding Europe can bypass those legal obligations. As EU law recognizes Przewalski's as wildlife, not livestock.

I'll admit this is going to probably make me a better writer, whether I want to or not.
I do think using Asiatic wild horses to fill the niche of European wild horses is proxy rewilding.

The remaining 19 animals of the species were made up of two subspecies of European Bison, the caucasian subspecies and the lowland subspecies. There was only a single animal from the caucasian species. What was decided back then was to create two lineages, the caucasian-lowland line and the pure lowland line. There is a population of hybrids between two subspecies of wisent. But just that. And all the research on that topic, that I am aware of, indicates that the caucasian-lowland line may suffer more of outbreeding depression than the lowland line. https://www.wwf.pl/sites/default/files/2019-09/Action Plan_Pucek et al..pdf

Wisp O' Mist is right. The publications are just not available in English.

 

[La Cucaracha]

I can't read Polish or Russisn, but the hybrids in question are referred to dubiously as Bison bison montanus. There's a mention of them in this paper (yes, it's old, it's almost my age). https://www.researchgate.net/public...bonasus_montanus_ssp_nov_Bovidae_Artiodactyla

 

[Lafone]

I'll admit this is going to probably make me a better writer, whether I want to or not.
I do think using Asiatic wild horses to fill the niche of European wild horses is proxy rewilding.



Wisp O' Mist is right. The publications are just not available in English.

In terms of writing something to think about is that while you ask the apparent question of this thread in the title, your opening post doesn't refer to the role zoos might play, how they might play it or what the challenges or opportunities are. It quotes a former zoo director talking about georgraphical displays but where is the so what?

Your opening starts with having a pop at the AZA and goes straight into detail on some particular features of proxy rewilding with some very obscure details and incomplete and inaccurate references. It doesn't however (and from this thread still has not) make it relevant to zoos in any way.

You haven't said what the parameters or definitions of the subject are, nor why zoos have to be considered or should be considered as part of it. You don't explain or assert what 'handle' means in context either (run it, make the rules on it, partcipate it, regulate it, police it or anything in between).

Diving straight into a debate on Bison DNA and what have you is all very well, but nowhere is there anything on what zoos are 'doing', whether they should, or indeed any form of wider context. I am not sure whether you think you are genuinely 'against' established history and science because that's challenging and you for some reason know better, or you fall into that 'all expertise is bunk' group popular on social media now or you just like a row for the sake of it.

Anyway, this thread is either another your agenda of the day, or it's about the question you posed. Given the direction of the opening and the three pages of posts, perhaps you might want to edit the title.

 

[La Cucaracha]

Diving straight into a debate on Bison DNA and what have you is all very well, but nowhere is there anything on what zoos are 'doing', whether they should, or indeed any form of wider context. I am not sure whether you think you are genuinely 'against' established history and science because that's challenging and you for some reason know better, or you fall into that 'all expertise is bunk' group popular on social media now or you just like a row for the sake of it.

I thought I was pretty clear about the Australian Rhino Project, but I suppose I could have made a better connection between that and why such a large herbivore might be beneficial to the Australian ecosystem where plants like elephant grass are invasive. I'll give you credit for that.

Anyway, this thread is either another your agenda of the day, or it's about the question you posed. Given the direction of the opening and the three pages of posts, perhaps you might want to edit the title.

I'm dying to know what my apparent agenda is. Maybe you already have a title in mind for this thread, but I would like this more to a proof reading or fact checking. I.e. Instead of saying some bison are "purebred", I could have said some herd genetics are a conservation priority not simply for namedropping herd origins or breed bigger animals-but to preserve the wild behaviors and adaptations of bison that have been scientifically and historically proven to decrease with heavier cattle influence.

 

[USZOOfan42]

I thought I was pretty clear about the Australian Rhino Project, but I suppose I could have made a better connection between that and why such a large herbivore might be beneficial to the Australian ecosystem where plants like elephant grass are invasive. I'll give you credit for that.



I'm dying to know what my apparent agenda is. Maybe you already have a title in mind for this thread, but I would like this more to a proof reading or fact checking. I.e. Instead of saying some bison are "purebred", I could have said some herd genetics are a conservation priority not simply for namedropping herd origins or breed bigger animals-but to preserve the wild behaviors and adaptations of bison that have been scientifically and historically proven to decrease with heavier cattle influence.

What?

 

[Zoo adventures]

I thought I was pretty clear about the Australian Rhino Project, but I suppose I could have made a better connection between that and why such a large herbivore might be beneficial to the Australian ecosystem where plants like elephant grass are invasive. I'll give you credit for that.

I do not know if I misunderstood something but the Australian Rhino project is to import 35 white rhinos from Africa to be then distributed to different zoos in Australia and in New Zealand to increase genetic diversity. I do not see the connection between the Australian Rhino project and the bison DNA. I rarely intervene in these threads but it doesn't make sense.
Here is a thread talking about the Australian Rhino project.
The Australian Rhino Project - South African Import (Discussion)

 

[La Cucaracha]

What?

I do not know if I misunderstood something but the Australian Rhino project is to import 35 white rhinos from Africa to be then distributed to different zoos in Australia and in New Zealand to increase genetic diversity. I do not see the connection between the Australian Rhino project and the bison DNA. I rarely intervene in these threads but it doesn't make sense.
Here is a thread talking about the Australian Rhino project.
The Australian Rhino Project - South African Import (Discussion)

I'm pretty sure the original plan before was to put about 80 of the white rhinos in a semi-natural breeding center, as said in the thread. Again, as I already laid this out, it was very controversial because people don't believe African animals belong in the Australian outback.

The reason is because the original plan was for herds to be established in the Australian Outback with 80 rhinoceros imported over four years (20 per year). This was cancelled for various reasons (including biosecurity) and since the zoos can’t accomodate 80 rhinoceros, the plans have had to be scaled back.

@Swanson02 mentioned Monarto are planning for a capacity of 30 Southern white rhinoceros. With this in mind, they’ll likely only want to receive a maximum of 15 founders to allow for population growth. Though there’s been talk of captive bred offspring returning to South Africa, this is a long term goal - with the regional population continuing to function as an insurance population for the foreseeable.

As for bison DNA, I just thought it fell under the umbrella topic of rewilding megafauna. Maybe you'd like to ask Wisp O'Mist what that has to do with this thread, too.