Taronga Western Plains Zoo the latest controversy-canned hunts

[jay]

Taronga Western Plains Zoo is in a bit of a bother because it sold Indian Blackbuck to private owners, people who want the State of NSW to allow private reserves for 'canned hunts'.
Calls for Taronga Zoo welfare chief to resign
Bob McComb buys antelope | Dubbo Zoo sells antelope to shooter | Erik Jensen
The NSW Govt is beholden to a small, issues specific political party called the Shooters Party. They first wanted the govt to allow shooters into national parks to hunt feral and native fauna such as kangaroos, galahs, cockatoos and ducks. (note they can do this outside of National Parks on private properties). That failed so now they are after private reserves for exotic deer etc. They say this will promote conservation. (There isn't a hysterical laugghter smilie).
The bloke in one of the articles says he isn't talking about hunting giraffes and elephants because he is sensitive to the public continuim of acceptance, ie he wants to hunt them but he knows that there would be too much of a public outrage if he did.
I have no sypathy for this idea at all. However I would be interested to hear what other members have to say about the issue.

 

[Jarkari]

I do believe there are private game farm owners africa that do more for conservation then we could ever hope for (SOME). But I do not think this is something we need to do in Australia. They want to hunt maybe gthey can pay to shoot the camels in NT so the government can regain some of that $15,000,0000 they are spending on the camel cull that our prime minister was called a serial killer for.

I don't think Dubbo's staff should be punished at all for this, The vet went out, inspected the property and the animals were sold to breed only. Zoos do sometimes rely on private individuals to help with gentic diversity in their ungulate herds.

 

[Monty]

What is proposed in NSW is exactly the same as what is legal in Vic, Qld and South Australia. Places lake Watervalley in South Australia charge about $5,000 for a blackbuck, while Western Plains either kills and buries their excess or sell them for up to $300 each. From what I have herd the problem with Blackbuck is inbreeding and having a larger population will help with this. When I was at Altin Wildlife Park a few weeks ago they told me their Blackbuck were from Victorian stock and were doing exchanges with Western Plains. Bob McComb has also exchanged Blackbuck with Western Plains and has sold them one Sambar stag I know of. I have herd that Bob has a large paddock running Chitil, Sambar and Blackbuck together which would be good to see.

Why is it alright to kill and bury excess Blackbuck males, but if the were to be sold to support the operation and the meat, skin and horns utilized it is bad. I run deer and sell animals, why should I be limited on selling them to abattoirs, wouldn't it be easier on the animals if I did not have to yard and truck animals to be killed. The whole principle of the current legislation is that transporting animals to abattoirs to be killed is alright but shooting them in the paddock is bad.

Increasing the Blackbuck population in Australia would be good for the future of the species in Australia. That is what allowing them to be on private game reserves would do. More people would be able to aford to keep them, and if they were profitable numbers would increase.

 

[Monty]

Here is some more information.

Dongadale Game Reserve General

 

[Jarkari]

Very Good point Monty. Dubbo is also exchanging american bison with private breeders.

 

[ZYBen]

Personally i have no problem with this, i would buy Blackbuck at that price! I see them as being a species that may end up like deer farming and i am intrigued to know what the meat tastes like.
I have always been a firm beleiver in the fact that private individual have a place in the managment of all species, If there had been Flamingoes in private hands i dont beleive we would be in the situation we are in, but thats another thread...!
This bloke, i dont believe, will shoot them all, nor will he allow them to die out, then HE looses his income. In this era of developing sustainable farming Blackbuck may be the new "in thing".

 

[Monty]

I have talked to people who have had Blackbuck and they all got rid of them because they were harder to run than Fallow or Red deer. I am not sure of all the reasons, but there are probobly not the markets there are for venison. I have also been told they suffered badly from worms and needed regular drenching unlike deer. In Victoria they are still able to be kept like deer with no lisence requirment like now in NSW.

 

[Monty]

I

see them as being a species that may end up like deer farming and i am intrigued to know what the meat tastes like.

I always think about that when I see a mob of Barbary sheep.

 

[Hix]

They want to hunt maybe gthey can pay to shoot the camels in NT

Or the Water Buffalo. Or the brumbies. Or the pigs.



Hix

 

[jay]

I

I always think about that when I see a mob of Barbary sheep.

So once the thrill of blackbuck is gone should we then start to can hunt the Barbary Sheep? And then after that zebra, giraffe, lion, elephant? When does it stop? If it is alright for one species then it's ok for all.
And how long before hunters get jacked off paying 100 or thousands of dollers to hunt and decide to release blackbuck into the wild, creating feral populations of this species as well as all the other deer species? It is estimated that at least half of the feral populations of deer in Australia exist because hunters released animals in areas where the deer previously didn't exist. It is also recognised that deer are the next major feral species to have a detrimental effect on the Australian enviroment as well as farming communities, with an effect greater than that of feral pigs, foxes or the cane toad.
While I recognise that in South Africa hunting has helped conserve their NATIVE fauna by providing locals with a financial incentive to keep wild animals rather than kill them out, this is not the same situation here in Australia.

 

[Monty]

So once the thrill of blackbuck is gone should we then start to can hunt the Barbary Sheep? And then after that zebra, giraffe, lion, elephant? When does it stop? If it is alright for one species then it's ok for all.

As I think I said in my previous post, increasing the Australian herd size of species will help with reduced inbreeding and keep the long term population healthy. I think enabling private owners to maintain herds of any species and earn an income from them will improve their conservation. Did you read the link to the NSW proposal I put up earlier. Canned hunting is a term used to describe an animal in a small pen for shooting (not hunting) with no chance of escape. I believe this has been done in some instances in the US and I have herd of it with Lions in South Africa. The link I put up gives what is proposed in NSW and it is nothing like that. I am not sure what the regulations are in Qld, Vic, SA and NT but all those states have hunting reserves already.

I read the NSW proposal and don't see any problem with it.

I keep looking at this issue as a deer farmer. I know that rounding up deer, yarding them, sorting them, and trucking some to an abitoir stresses them. I then hear Lee Riannon and her Animal libber cohorts saying hunting reserves are canned hunting and the animals have no chance of escape. What do they think happens at abitoirs, do they think any escape from there. I like my deer but I also like to eat them and they pay their way. I really don't see species of Antelope differently. They are all still wild animals and I do not see anything wrong with sustainable utilization.

The Scimitar Horned Oryx is an interesting example of what hunting reserves can do for captive populations of endangered species. They are almost extinct in the wild with probably less than 500 remaining in their native habitat, and there are over 2500 and possibly 5000 in Texas on hunting ranches.

And how long before hunters get jacked off paying 100 or thousands of dollars to hunt and decide to release blackbuck into the wild, creating feral populations of this species as well as all the other deer species? It is estimated that at least half of the feral populations of deer in Australia exist because hunters released animals in areas where the deer previously didn't exist.

There have been feral herds of Blackbuck antelope in Qld, NT and WA and they have all been eradicated. It was not very long ago the the Qld government used helicopter shooting to remove the last blackbuck. At the time I don't remember anyone saying they should not shoot them, they are endangered. Most of out wild deer herds were released over 100 years ago and have been spreading slowly ever since. The NPWS like to use the "hunters are letting them go" excuse for their inability to do anything about them while refusing any hunting in the parks. By dong little control themselves and protecting them by not allowing outside hunters in, numbers continue to expand and spread out. There is no proof of hunters letting deer go and no convictions I have herd of, just an shifting of blame to someone else, by authorities who are sitting on their hands.

It is also recognised that deer are the next major feral species to have a detrimental effect on the Australian environment as well as farming communities, with an effect greater than that of feral pigs, foxes or the cane toad.

That sentence is rubbish and completely untrue. Name one species that is under threat from deer, and one serious environmental problem caused solely by deer. There is no comparison to the damage done by pigs, foxes and cane toads. Qld is the only state which has listed deer as feral and coincidentally one of the few states who do not allow deer hunting on public land. In NSW and Victoria, where I have experience they are classified as game animals and we must buy a lisense to hunt them, and can hunt them on public land. So on one hand the Qld govt says the are a major pest and on the other they protect them from hunters so allow their numbers to rise unchecked.

 

[boof]

I am a keen hunter. There is nothing better then killing ferals. I have shot banteng, buffaloes, pigs, goats, dogs, cats, bunnies and hares. I also kill the odd indian mynha and starling. While i enjoy hunting, I don't think i would pay money to shoot an animal in a hunting reserve. Theres to many ferals running around that can be hunted for free. I understand that people are opposed to any type of hunting , but think of the damage these ferals are doing to pristine areas like Kakadu, the snowy mountains, cape york and many other places that are being destroyed by things that don't belong there. Like monty pointed out national parks are nothing but a breeding ground for some of these species because of their refusal to let hunters have acsess. I'm not talking about letting rambo style idiots walk around the Royal national park in Sydney, but some of the big parks in western NSW that have low visitor numbers but are overrun by goats, foxes and pigs would only benefit from a controlled acsess system for hunters.
The only good feral is a dead feral.

Sorry for taking this thread away from the topic.

 

[Steve Robinson]

I am intrigued by the TWPZ stance on this.

What Monty has said makes complete sense to me and obviously also to the movers and shakers at TWPZ.

But why will TWPZ not sell [or give] any Blackbuck to non-ARAZPA zoos?

When pressed for an answer the wall of silence descends, phones are not answered and messages are not replied to!

 

[Steve Robinson]

It is also recognised that deer are the next major feral species to have a detrimental effect on the Australian enviroment as well as farming communities, with an effect greater than that of feral pigs, foxes or the cane toad.

This is a position currently being touted by a department of the Queensland Government.

They are not able to justify this dramatic claim but it did get them the publicity that they craved.

 

[phoenix]

i have personally seen little evidence that deer have a severe impact on the environment. nonetheless, i believe that governments should refuse them protection. they are not a native species and whilst their impact may only be slight, i see no reason to offer them any sort of protected status.

hunting ranches are not my thing. in fact hunting of any kind is not my thing. still my best friend is an avid hunter and regularly shoots deer. occasionally he invites everyone over and we have a venison barbeque. delicious.

people might find hunting distasteful but to entirely denounce it makes you a total hypocrite. i don't even care if you are vegetarian. you are human. an animal. and by simply living - you impact the lives of other animals. be it by displacement from the palm oil in your shampoo or because you drunkedly devoured a big mac. humans consume, in one way or another, other species. get over it.

however, if you have ethical issues with the way some animals are treated, then i understand. like monty, its okay to kill animals and still have compassion for them. i know that the deer my friend shot in the wild lived a more pleasant life than the pig who provided my bacon. and i know my friend is one of the most compassionate people i know. he cried when my dog died. MY DOG. we killed chickens on his farm together as teenagers. neither of us had done it before and it was all about making sure we made it as painless as possible. as 16 year olds we tracked down herds of wild hog deer in victoria together. the first either of us had ever seen a wild deer. we were good at it. and to this day we have a mutual respect for eachother as people who understand animals. i wholeheartedly trust him and i understand where his pleasure for hunting arises from even though i manifest the same passion in a slightly different way.

unfortunately i know others hunters who are not so compassionate and i know not all are as responsible and compassionate as my friend.

canned hunts are an unusual enterprise. but they are not actually unethical. how does giving a animal "a chance" make it any more just? as monty said we don't give domestic animals "a chance" when we ship them off to slaughter.

still, since the issue arises such a passionate response from the public - as a zoo director, i'd actively avoid even directly offloading and species to hunting ranches.

but nonetheless i see WPZ has made no wrongdoing.

 

[Steve Robinson]

Enjoyed your rationale, phoenix, and could find little fault with it until I got to the above quote.

The double standards, even hypocrisy, of some in the zoo world get me cranky at times.

If we are going to "use" surplus animals sometimes why not be open about it? We are supposed to be about educating people but how worthwhile is some of that education when it is whitewash?

If management came to the conclusion that it was OK to sell Blackbuck to a commercial outfit then they should surely have the guts to stand behind that decision publicly and justify it to the great unwashed.

I recall a situation at Melbourne Zoo a few years ago when the zoo fed surplus [humanely killed] zoo bred waterfowl to appropriate carnivores. Some squealer alerted the media and all hell broke loose. The head bean counter at the time searched in vain for a spine, couldn't find one to justify the practice, and so apologised publicly for the zoo's actions and promised not to do it again.

At the same time, zoos were enthusiastically embracing the notion of whole carcass feeds for carnivores!

Education has to be honest.

 

[Steve Robinson]

So once the thrill of blackbuck is gone should we then start to can hunt the Barbary Sheep? And then after that zebra, giraffe, lion, elephant? When does it stop? If it is alright for one species then it's ok for all.

Yes jay, that is where I have a problem. Where do we stop?

If it's edible it's OK - if not then not?

And by "edible" I mean that it is actually humanely killed AND then eaten. Not just killed for the trophy.

Interesting side note - the CSIRO has actually done some research on commercially farming Blackbuck for meat.

 

[Steve Robinson]

release blackbuck into the wild, creating feral populations of this species

It seems that the media can not refer to an exotic animal without describing it as "endangered"!

Australia already has significant feral populations of this species. It is also kept by many, many private holders as well as a significant number [100+] in ARAZPA institutions.

Controlled hunting of this species has been carried out for many years in some Australian States without decimating the captive population.

 

[Monty]

I am not particulay interested in hunting on a game farm/reserve myself but I do not see anything wrong with others doing it. I believe a majority of people who want to hunt on this sort of place are after the trophy to mount on the wall. I do not have any mounted animal trophies myself either but I have seen some beautifal examples. Of the people who want the mounted trophy there are I believe two types. Those who want a momento of the hunt, or those who have taxidermed animals as part of a collection and are always after a species they dont have. Both these are good reasons as far as I am concerned and they money spent goes back to the upkeep of the species.

 

[Monty]

It seems that the media can not refer to an exotic animal without describing it as "endangered"!

Australia already has significant feral populations of this species. It is also kept by many, many private holders as well as a significant number [100+] in ARAZPA institutions.

Controlled hunting of this species has been carried out for many years in some Australian States without decimating the captive population.

I think you mean the media can not refer to an exotic animal without describing it as "feral"!

I was also reading elsewhere that the inbreeding at WPZ has only been remidied by animals sourced from ones which originated on game farms in other states. I am sure a game farm would never carstrate their last Kudu male.