Dudley Zoological Gardens Dudley Zoo killer Whale
- Thread starter jacks zoo
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yes, then the UK would have a wide variety of aquariums with different exhibits, which might prompt me to visit a sealife centre (or then a former sealife colonie). Scramble for Colonial Empire all over again
sealion
Well-Known Member
Very True! All the sealife centres seem to house exactly the same species! I went to chessington a while ago and thought i'd take a look in the new sealife tent-exactly the same stuff, but less than what's at brighton! The only independent ones seem to be the ones in zoos or the deep/NMA plymouth.
Also, on a side-note. I know there are probably obvious reasons for this, but why do people moan so much about captive cetaceans when all kinds of monkeys who are meant to be highly intelligent are kept at dozens of zoos without question?
sealion
Well-Known Member
I'm not just talking about the UK. Loads of chimps etc are kept in quite small cages/islands like at Longleat (gorillas) and no-one thinks anything of it. Loads of people are still up in arms about places like Seaworld who, in my opinion keep their cetaceans/pinnipeds in very good conditions.
The majority of dolphinaria that are still open (that have survived the anti-caps) have decent/very good facilities but people still complain saying that they are "too clever to be kept in captivity" etc.
sealion, i think it is to do morewith the size of the creatures in addition to their intelligence...you can hardly expect to keep killer whales in a tank the size of the average ape island (such as Longleats) whereas it is reasonable to keep gorillas or other great apes. i think, whilst intelligence may play its part, size is the main reason.
Actually there are quite a lot of dolphinaria open that shouldn't be. A lot of the Russian and Asian facilities are quite small or over populated (I will have to dig out some of the photos I had). There are very few on any kind of scale that are decent for them. Sea World, Marineland France and a couple of others are the exceptions, not the rule. I still wouldn't say the majority of Orca tanks are acceptable. Again, Marineland and Sea World have the better of the tanks. Loro Parque is deep but not very wide, Six Flaggs pool for Shouka is a little smaller than Sea World California's close up. Marineland Ontario always stuck me as small, but I believe it's about the same size as SWF's show pool with one back pool.
Miami SeaQuarium's pool for Lolita is terribly out of date, it's way too small for the Lag's she lives with let alone a Killer Whale. Sadly, her situation wont change. It'd be too dangerous to move her to somewhere new, build her a new tank or even 'release' her. She just doesn't like change. Ksamenk at Mundo Marina is in a tank that is way too small. He's a big bull Orca kept with Bottlenosed Dolphins, he's reasonably aggressive (to the point where the trainers wont stand near the waters edge) and again, he can't be moved because Brazilian and Argentinian laws wont allow him to (even though he was force stranded for capture). Kamagowa Sea World has 7 Orca's in a tiny little pool. They've had reasonable success with breeding, but it's so small and the risk of inbreeding is massive.
KSW: http://www.orcahome.de/images/kamogawa4.jpg
Nami at Taiji... well... considering it's a very shallow, man made 'bay' it's not worth much. She is being moved to Nagoya where Ku (RIP) was though which would be much better seeing as Nagoya is massive for a single Orca. She also can't really have other company considering she attacked Ku so badly that they were sperated.
The problem is their size, their social groupings, their health and everything else. Yes most primates are kept in small conditions, but you wouldn't be able to build "Big enough" pools for a cetacean. They would have to be on MLF's standard. Sadly, I don't think there's anywhere suitable. Also, I don't know if SW or KSW would ever contribute Orca's, and I don't see anywhere else giving us Dolphins or any type. If they captured Dolphins and Orca's... I'll be outside trying to get it shut down. Captures do NOT need to happen.
Miami SeaQuarium's pool for Lolita is terribly out of date, it's way too small for the Lag's she lives with let alone a Killer Whale. Sadly, her situation wont change. It'd be too dangerous to move her to somewhere new, build her a new tank or even 'release' her. She just doesn't like change. Ksamenk at Mundo Marina is in a tank that is way too small. He's a big bull Orca kept with Bottlenosed Dolphins, he's reasonably aggressive (to the point where the trainers wont stand near the waters edge) and again, he can't be moved because Brazilian and Argentinian laws wont allow him to (even though he was force stranded for capture). Kamagowa Sea World has 7 Orca's in a tiny little pool. They've had reasonable success with breeding, but it's so small and the risk of inbreeding is massive.
KSW: http://www.orcahome.de/images/kamogawa4.jpg
Nami at Taiji... well... considering it's a very shallow, man made 'bay' it's not worth much. She is being moved to Nagoya where Ku (RIP) was though which would be much better seeing as Nagoya is massive for a single Orca. She also can't really have other company considering she attacked Ku so badly that they were sperated.
The problem is their size, their social groupings, their health and everything else. Yes most primates are kept in small conditions, but you wouldn't be able to build "Big enough" pools for a cetacean. They would have to be on MLF's standard. Sadly, I don't think there's anywhere suitable. Also, I don't know if SW or KSW would ever contribute Orca's, and I don't see anywhere else giving us Dolphins or any type. If they captured Dolphins and Orca's... I'll be outside trying to get it shut down. Captures do NOT need to happen.
Just because you may subjectively think these are small environments this does not mean that they are as far as the animals are concerned. The actually research on size and type of enclosures that is appropriate is obviously provisional and related to parameters such as the animals behaviour within such environments, do they breed and successfully rear their young being one criteria; albeit a parameter that could be consider somewhat simple but still a valid observation.
If you relate this to basic dimensions then it would be interesting to do animal size ratio and stocking densities audit with for example the gorillas housed at say Howletts with the Orcas held at Seaworld Orlando or Loro Park.
Some countries do have cetacean keeping standards including the UK. The European Associton for Aquatic Mammals produced basic standard guide line for Tursiops in 1995 which can be found here:
E.A.A.M. Standards for Establishments Housing Bottlenose Dolphins
Also it is very misleading to make damning statements regarding care of cetaceans internationally without taking into account the cultural norms for these societies; clearly what we find objectionable in our culture may not be shared by other cultures. I had friends visit various dolphin facilities in the former USSR on the Black Sea some years ago and conditions were grim but not just for the animals but the humans looking after them so context is required. See also below my comments regarding Japan.
Moreover whilst the Orca maybe the largest member of the dolphin family there is great deal of difference just by the actual fact of physical size than the keeping of smaller cetaceans such as Tursiops aka the bottlenosed dolphin. Therefore one has to be very careful when damning dolpharia per se.
The basic thrust of your concerns in your post seem aimed specific at the keeping on Orca in human care (and a brief mention of white-sided dolphins) not directly related to other species such as Tursiops for which even internationally there are some excellent facilities.
‘Lolita’ is rather a unique case and on par with the other animal you cite at Mundo Marina. These animals can not be moved to other facilities for a number of reasons you basically outline.
As for reintroduction we only have to look at the dreadful mess regarding the sad fate of ‘Keiko’ as an example. And closer to home the ill-fated Into The Blue project with three former UK captive dolphins.
See also this for background: European Association for Aquatic Mammals - EAAM - Release Statement
As a conservational tool reintroduction certainly is valid but as welfare consideration for long-term captive animals is unwise at best and actually cruel in reality. Indeed one could argued by some that these animals should not have been taken from the wild but that doesn’t excuse our moral obligations to their actual welfare not to mention the huge sums of money and time involved in releasing animals such a ‘Keiko’ - 20 millions pounds!!
Which, of course, did result in ‘Kekio’ being ‘released’ in Iceland to make his way to Norway and be found begging for food. He remained the rest of his life being fed in a semi-captive situation where upon his death he quickly buried in a local field with no published post mortem forthcoming
As far as it being ‘way to small for lags’ is this actually the case. The founder animals were caught in 1988 and have since bred. They seem to be doing okay.
I am not sure exactly what standards are legally enforced regarding zoo animal welfare in Japan. But bear in mind that this country still operates whale hunting and drive fisheries of dolphins. It is interesting fact (least we become too smug) that according to my colleague Dr Margaret *Klinowska (1991) just when the first Orcas where being caught for captive display in the 1960s, e.g. Moby Doll etc, the Canadian government was planning to set up machine gun posts in the Vancouver area to kill Orcas which where considered a pest species to fisheries. A thought unthinkable now and I would suspect due in no small part due to their display in captivity.
The statement regarding ‘in breeding’ as regards Orcas I have address elsewhere again on this forum. Clearly you are not aware of the research that demonstrates that wild Orca are by definition in-breed.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691053/pdf/12137576.pdf
This is, of course, hardly surprising if you look at their breeding behaviour in the wild.
Nonetheless, such perceived problem could be resolved by artificial insemination (AI) which has been undertaken with bottle-nosed dolphin and is now considered a far better solution for breeding programmes for large terrestrial mammals such as elephants; semen being easy the fly around the world than a bull elephant or Orca.
I think it is very unlikely that the UK would display Orcas. But so far as Seaworld in the US they have supplied 4 captive bred Orcas to Loro Park.
If, and it's a big if, the UK had dolphins where would they come from?
I think I have mentioned this elsewhere but the owners of Blackpool Zoo - Parques Reunidos - have various dolphinaria and breed animals on a regular basis. They are also not alone take for example the Harderwijk Marine Mammal Park’s supply 4 captive breed Tursiops to one of their sister parks in France.
As far as the import of wild caught animals are concern the stark reality is that all zoo animals are derive from wild caught animals, albeit some generations removed. The scientific and conservational problem of acquire animals from the wild is basically one of the sustainability of the specific target population. Animals are removed from populations in any event by predation, disease and death by accident. I am not suggesting wild capture as a first choice but making a statement that such situations are not as black and white as you seem to suggest. Is it expectable to except animals from a drive fisheries to supply zoos and aquariums rather than they being killed? These are a genuine dilemma when looking at the situation in say Japan and the Solomon Islands.
This is the EAAM statement regarding this matter: European Association for Aquatic Mammals - EAAM - Statement on Japanese Drive Fisheries
Indeed, some captive cetaceans have been acquired as stranded animals, e.g. harbour porpoises at Harderwijk which may be a more publicly expectable when captive bred stock are not readily available.
I don't think it is too inappropriate to question the ethics of cetacean keeping in light of the publics rather ambiguous attitude regarding primates and other large mammals in zoological collections. Moreover, on a international basis we could all find examples for animals other than cetaceans in zoo and aquaria not kept to the consider best practice but this is hardly balanced or fair.
You yourself admit that Seaworld and Marineland in France have good facilities and I would have thought that these were indeed examples of best practise rather than actual exceptions such a loan animals such as 'Lolia' in a pool constructed in the 1970s and I doubt very much that SeAquarium and similar aquaria are seriously thinking of continuing to maintain Orca once their current animals have gone.
NOTES:
There are some quite good photo and stats on this site re: current captive Orca facilities.
Cetacean Cousins: Captive Orcas
REFERENCE:
*KLINOWSKA M., 1991. Dolphins, Porpoises and Whales of the world. The IUCN red data book. IUCN, Gland/Cambridge UK
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I'm not anti-captivity nor pro-captivity, I sit on the fence. I can't see that animals breeding is a good judgement. Dogs at puppy farms breed even when they're kept in tiny cages with poor food and care. Ceta-base is a good source of information too and I know the owner/creator of Cetacean Cousins (though I need to notify a few errors eg male orca's listed as female 
). I do understand that different cultures and country's have different views about how to care for animals and I hate the fact that the Taiji captures (among many others) continue.
Keiko was the biggest failiure ever. I totally agree. There was a report released not to long ago from the Free Willy Foundation that it had failed and I WISH I'd saved it! I don't know if I made it clear enough that I don't think they should be reintroduced or even moved to Sea Pens. I do understand that Lolita, Shouka and Kshamenk's situation will not change.
I totally get that all animals had to be captured in the first place. But unless they're for extremely endangered/near extinct species, I don't think that captures need to happen. Relocation of wild animals, yes, but not captures. Parques Renuindos certainly do own several dolphinaria and only one with Orcas (4 of them and they shouldn't be split for their own good). So yes, they could 'rustle up' a couple of Dolphins for the UK if they wished. What I meant was would they even do it in the first place? Or if someone proposed the facility, what other company's would offer animals? Loro Parque is a bad example. All of them are related in someway (either through Tilikum or Katina) and none of them were particularly good candidates for moving except that they were young. SW still owns them.
AI, as I'm sure you know, is very expensive and difficult. It's worked well with Bottlenosed Dolphins (and I think Beluga's have been successful) but we only know of two Orca's (Nakai and Kohana) to be born through AI (and that was only because SW played a happy song about it). After that most of them seem to be through natural matings (EG mixing females with big boy Tilikum). SW on it's own will have to think about trading with other parks, there are so many Tilikum or Katina related Orca's now that there's going to be lots of trouble.
Sea World and Marineland France are the best at the moment, but they should be the standard. That's a very interesting article about Wild Orca's being in-bred. I will have to read it in full in a couple of minutes. But thank you for sharing. I know that there are other below standard enclosures for other animals, but Orca's are a very difficult thing and it always raises so much fire power from PETA extremists etc.
(I have to go but will edit and add when I get back
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). I do understand that different cultures and country's have different views about how to care for animals and I hate the fact that the Taiji captures (among many others) continue.Keiko was the biggest failiure ever. I totally agree. There was a report released not to long ago from the Free Willy Foundation that it had failed and I WISH I'd saved it! I don't know if I made it clear enough that I don't think they should be reintroduced or even moved to Sea Pens. I do understand that Lolita, Shouka and Kshamenk's situation will not change.
I totally get that all animals had to be captured in the first place. But unless they're for extremely endangered/near extinct species, I don't think that captures need to happen. Relocation of wild animals, yes, but not captures. Parques Renuindos certainly do own several dolphinaria and only one with Orcas (4 of them and they shouldn't be split for their own good). So yes, they could 'rustle up' a couple of Dolphins for the UK if they wished. What I meant was would they even do it in the first place? Or if someone proposed the facility, what other company's would offer animals? Loro Parque is a bad example. All of them are related in someway (either through Tilikum or Katina) and none of them were particularly good candidates for moving except that they were young. SW still owns them.
AI, as I'm sure you know, is very expensive and difficult. It's worked well with Bottlenosed Dolphins (and I think Beluga's have been successful) but we only know of two Orca's (Nakai and Kohana) to be born through AI (and that was only because SW played a happy song about it). After that most of them seem to be through natural matings (EG mixing females with big boy Tilikum). SW on it's own will have to think about trading with other parks, there are so many Tilikum or Katina related Orca's now that there's going to be lots of trouble.
Sea World and Marineland France are the best at the moment, but they should be the standard. That's a very interesting article about Wild Orca's being in-bred. I will have to read it in full in a couple of minutes. But thank you for sharing. I know that there are other below standard enclosures for other animals, but Orca's are a very difficult thing and it always raises so much fire power from PETA extremists etc.
(I have to go but will edit and add when I get back
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I totally agree and this is what should be considered by anyone planning to build such facilities.
To be honest I think the smaller cetaceans are a much better bet and the fact that Harderwijk have been able to maintain and breed harbour porpoises is very exciting. In fact they would make an excellent UK exhibit being both indigenous and also quite difficult to observe in the wild.
As regards breeding aka puppy farms. I think most vets would confirm these animals and their young are in far from good conditions. This is why I made the point of stating 'breeding and successfully rearing'. Yes it's a bit of a blunt instrument in analysis but still useful. Animal welfare has to based of sound science not subjective sentiment however well meaning.
Not sure if that is true as I am familiar with vets who have undertaken the procedure albeit with Tursiops in Hong Kong. Certainly the less problematic than moving animals around.
I'd love to see Harbor Porpoises, but again, I'd only really accept it from somewhere like Harderwijk where they have a breeding program. Again, captures do not sit comfortably with me.
The puppy farm statement was just a response to the fact that many animals do breed no matter the environment. Just the fact that animals are producing offspring doesn't mean their healthy, nor comfortable. Small places are a problem for cetaceans, if they can't swim in a straight or gently curved line, the calves can't suckle (which was Corky 2's problem at her first facility). Or they get the wrong idea and try to suckle at the animals eyepatch. Dolphins need this too, but obviously not at the lengths an Orca does.
The puppy farm statement was just a response to the fact that many animals do breed no matter the environment. Just the fact that animals are producing offspring doesn't mean their healthy, nor comfortable. Small places are a problem for cetaceans, if they can't swim in a straight or gently curved line, the calves can't suckle (which was Corky 2's problem at her first facility). Or they get the wrong idea and try to suckle at the animals eyepatch. Dolphins need this too, but obviously not at the lengths an Orca does.
sealion
Well-Known Member
sealion
Well-Known Member
Oh dear. it looks like i've sparked off a bit of a debate....haha.
I had always wondered about KSW's pool because it looked far to small for the 7 orcas I had seen listed.
To be honest, I doubt there's a future for keeping killer whales captive at all, so I guess we should enjoy being able to see them up close while we can!
On a side note, Lolita won't be moved, but I think people feel guilty if they don't atleast try for her, myself included. (Btw: I do not think release is an option due to Keiko's fate etc.)
Why have they not set up a dolphin rescue and rehabilitation centre like the seal sanctuary in cornwall? (Well we probably know why....protesters!) There are wild dolphins in the seas around Britain and you often hear about strandings and dolphin's getting lost and confused, should they not provide such a service for dolphins as well? ...just a thought.
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johnstoni
Well-Known Member
A dolphin rescue and rehabilitation centre would work, but the problem is not with the rehaibilitation, its with what you do with those animals not deemed suitable for release back into the wild. Any centre involved in this would rapidly come under criticism for its facilities for any permanent residents.
sealion
Well-Known Member
Yeah, it's a shame activists of all kinds get so much of a say in the UK, well I meant it's good for some things but bad for issues such as this. I think a rehabilitation centre would be the most do-able thing for the UK, but still pretty risky in terms of public opinion. They woul get a lot of visitors though so they could expand into looking after a wider variety of animals using the funds (although cetacean keeping is quite expensive anyway.). But anyway, it's food for thought.
I think I was suggesting that animals that where subject to rescue and rehab from stranding could be a source of animals for captive exhibit when captive bred animals may not be suitable or available and preferable to wild capture.
As to the issue of permanent residents, this was certainly the norm at the Cornish Seal Sanctuary when I worked there for a summer with the founder Ken Jones – long before it was bought by Sealife Centres. He had a large ‘residents’ pool for animals deem unsuitable for release. But, Of course, these grey seals not cetaceans which are mistakenly thought of a ‘special zoo animals’ by some.
I young me cleaning out the residents pool at the Cornish Seal Sanctuary.
The current state of the UK regulations with stranded cetaceans – as a result of the Steering Committee Report off the back of the ‘Review of Dolphinaria’ by Klinowska and Brown (1986) – was that animals could not be used for display in facilities that did not comply with new enclosure standards; this was rightly to stop animals being displayed in rescue centres in as some kind of ‘backdoor’ dolphinarium.
The current fate of UK stranded cetaceans is far from satisfactory IMHO. Animals beached are generally assessed and efforts made to re-float them. As there is no rehab centres in the UK for cetaceans the fate for these animals that can not be re-floated within a few hours is being killed on the beach by lethal injection. The problem is compounded by most (if not all cetaceans rescues) being undertaken by the self-styled British Marine Life Divers Association who I get the impression are extremely anti-captive and were involved in the ill-fated Into The Blue project in 1991 and appear to have some association with the anti-captive Whale and Dolphin Conservation Society (WDCS).
In the Netherlands, of course, animals such as harbour porpoises that are obviously ill and sent to Harderwijk for assessment and treatment. Those that rehabilitate successfully are released back to wild.
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Why would they have to be moved elsewhere? The UK regulations are quite specific that such facilities would have to comply with the UK dolphinaria regulations which came into force in 1992. Therefore all pools would have to certain minimum size. This may mean that orcas would have to be moved or released as it is very unlikely any rescue centre would build rehab pools big enough for the long term care of these animals. But as regards porpoise and smaller dolphins that may not be the case.
As for 'Free Will' I thought we agreed that the 'Keiko' business was a total disaster.
Where did you get that statement regarding 'Corky'? I would be interested to know as I visited Marineland when she and her male companion 'Orky' were housed there about a year or so prior to the park being bought by Seaworld and spoke to the staff at length regarding this and other matter. Her inability to suckle her calves did not seem to be related to your above theory.
Indeed the pool could be considered inadequate and also now illegal in many countries including the UK (where the minimum depth of an orca tank should be 40 feet). The tank that housed these animals was built in 1954 and was 80 feet in diameter and 22 feet deep. Ironical it really isn't very much smaller and a little deeper than Kamogawa Seaworld's main pool (106' x 66' x 21' deep) and as you mentioned they have bred orcas successfully which seems to disprove your above comment.
Interesting web page here with information on the orcas at Marineland.
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Considering they tried to nurse almost all of Corky's Calves when they saw them trying to suckle on her eye patch suggests to me that they didn't suckle from her at all. Also, if she's not got any space to swim without turning in a very sharp bend or constantly in quite a tough circle, she couldn't have kept a calf in her slipstream long enough for suckling to be of any use nor could she have kept her self slowly moving in a straight line (keeping her body 'stiff' as most captive mothers appear to do). None of their calves survived.
KSW is slightly different, they keep the mother and calf in the broader pool, where as Corky and her calves were in this: http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9275/36808181.jpg (Although this is Corky 1 and Orky 2, it does demonstrate why it's too small) Way too small for her to nurse a calf.
http://www.image-archeology.com/Mar...es_Estates_Portuguese_Bend_California_G17.jpg (demonstrates the only other pool they had access to. She probably had a few seconds straight and then had to turn sharply, impossible to allow a calf to suckle. Everytime she straightened out, she had to turn again.)
http://cetacousin.bplaced.net/orca/profile/b8501.html Explains that they couldn't nurse and the calves always tried to suckle from her eyepatch. KSW does surprise me with their success, but I shall wait to see how Earth (Lovey's first calf) does to make any true judgements. Corky's calf Kiva was the only one with any chance, but MLotP seperated them when Corky became too rough and then died from respiratory failiure. Bearing in mind Taima of SeaWorld Florida was far rougher with her first calf Sumar (now at SWC from the age of 1 year old), she could've killed him. Tekoa (now at Loro Parque) was also treated the same way, but to a lesser extent, they still seperated them when she threatened him, with Malia (her current calf) she has had several incidents, but nothing like poor Sumar and Tekoa. So who knows, if they'd left Kiva with Corky (and she hadn't had problems with her resipration) she may have survived.
Oh we've all been told and we all know that Keiko's release was a disaster, but there are a few that believe in 'freeing' animals no matter what and Keiko was a success because he died in the water he was born in (Completely ignoring the fact he looked for human company, needed to be fed dead fish and was in a Norweigan Fjord), like the Into The Blue project. I could see PETA and a few others (WDCS to name a few) throwing temper tantrums or doing stupid harmful things until something gave. Anyway, if the 'resident' Dolphin/Porpoise was to go anywhere, I'd prefer it to go to a country with experience in cetaceans. We've obviously had it, but we've not had cetaceans in the country for years, Sea World are at the forefront of that really.
KSW is slightly different, they keep the mother and calf in the broader pool, where as Corky and her calves were in this: http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9275/36808181.jpg (Although this is Corky 1 and Orky 2, it does demonstrate why it's too small) Way too small for her to nurse a calf.
http://www.image-archeology.com/Mar...es_Estates_Portuguese_Bend_California_G17.jpg (demonstrates the only other pool they had access to. She probably had a few seconds straight and then had to turn sharply, impossible to allow a calf to suckle. Everytime she straightened out, she had to turn again.)
http://cetacousin.bplaced.net/orca/profile/b8501.html Explains that they couldn't nurse and the calves always tried to suckle from her eyepatch. KSW does surprise me with their success, but I shall wait to see how Earth (Lovey's first calf) does to make any true judgements. Corky's calf Kiva was the only one with any chance, but MLotP seperated them when Corky became too rough and then died from respiratory failiure. Bearing in mind Taima of SeaWorld Florida was far rougher with her first calf Sumar (now at SWC from the age of 1 year old), she could've killed him. Tekoa (now at Loro Parque) was also treated the same way, but to a lesser extent, they still seperated them when she threatened him, with Malia (her current calf) she has had several incidents, but nothing like poor Sumar and Tekoa. So who knows, if they'd left Kiva with Corky (and she hadn't had problems with her resipration) she may have survived.
Oh we've all been told and we all know that Keiko's release was a disaster, but there are a few that believe in 'freeing' animals no matter what and Keiko was a success because he died in the water he was born in (Completely ignoring the fact he looked for human company, needed to be fed dead fish and was in a Norweigan Fjord), like the Into The Blue project. I could see PETA and a few others (WDCS to name a few) throwing temper tantrums or doing stupid harmful things until something gave. Anyway, if the 'resident' Dolphin/Porpoise was to go anywhere, I'd prefer it to go to a country with experience in cetaceans. We've obviously had it, but we've not had cetaceans in the country for years, Sea World are at the forefront of that really.
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