Marwell Wildlife Bring back....?

There have beeny many positive steps in Marwell over the last few years. Bigger enclosures give more opportunity's for animals to be engaged with enrichment. Marwell's old Snow Leopard and Gibbon enclosures were awful. Tiny little cages that were NOT big enough for the number of animals, nor the type of animals. That's been totally changed. The Snow Leopard enclosure is amazing and when I last saw Yasmin, she takes total advantage of the higher vantage points. I don't know about the two new Snow Leopards as I haven't seen them yet. The Gibbons appear to really enjoy their new enclosure with all the possibilities for climbing and the water. I don't see how environments that stimulate an animals nautral instincts are non-positive steps.

Yeah, there are things they could do, there are a few people that do know Marwell's future hopes. But I don't know anything about their future. I for one like their smaller exhbits like the invertebrates and lizards. I believe that conservation isn't only for the bigger species, so many smaller species are in danger of extinction and could cause decline's of larger animals.

I can't complain about African Valley, Australian Bush Walk/Encounter Village or the Tamarin Walk-Through. I like them all. It's a shame that the Tamarins Walkthrough has had to be shut off so many times thanks to stupid guests feeding the Tamarin's.

They are improving and I just think it's going to get better and better. There are other places that require upgrades more than Marwell but they don't seem to get picked on as much.
 
MarwellGirl09 said:
Bigger enclosures give more opportunity's for animals to be engaged with enrichment. The Snow Leopard enclosure is amazing and when I last saw Yasmin, she takes total advantage of the higher vantage points. I don't see how environments that stimulate an animals nautral instincts are non-positive steps.

I can't complain about African Valley, Australian Bush Walk/Encounter Village or the Tamarin Walk-Through. I like them all. It's a shame that the Tamarins Walkthrough has had to be shut off so many times thanks to stupid guests feeding the Tamarin's.

They are improving and I just think it's going to get better and better. There are other places that require upgrades more than Marwell but they don't seem to get picked on as much.
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I hope I didn't give the impression I was 'picking on' Marwell - but I do think it's got issues which need addressing.

To respond to a few points here:

  • The snow leopard enclosure could be 'amazing', but, if you're going to go for an immersion exhibit, as they have here, you can't then have views of the car park behind! If it's going to be an 'environment' (a word I would never use to describe an animal's enclosure) then to have those full-on reminders that you are not in the foothills of the Himalayas, but instead in rural Hampshire, rather detracts from the whole business.
  • Agree that the siamang and snow leopard enclosures are improvements on what was there before, but that's not saying a great deal - especially in the case of the siamangs. Does the new siamang enclosure work? I'm not sure. Things may have changed since I last saw it, but there wasn't a huge amount of opportunity for the animals to demonstrate their climbing prowess. Instead, every time I have seen it the animals have been on the ground, which says something about the enclosure design. And the Indonesian theming? It's not really my thing, but I can see that some might like it.
  • 'Stupid guests' feeding the tamarins and thus causing the walk-through to be closed - something which should possibly have been anticipated, and factored in to the enclosure's design.
  • I'm genuinely glad that you like, say, the Australian Bush Walk - but I do think that in comparison to what has been done at other zoos, in the UK and abroad, some of these recent developments are decidedly second-rate. Species-wise alone: parma and red-necked wallabies, and kookaburas - it's not exactly the World of Australian Wildlife, is it?

I still think Marwell is a good zoo, but I don't think it's great - and it could be!
 
sooty mangabey said:
an 'environment' (a word I would never use to describe an animal's enclosure)
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With you entirely there. Both 'environment' and 'habitat' are words that grate with me when used to describe enclosures. Pointless euphemisms designed to needlessly distract from the fact that this place with all the animals in captivity is a zoo, with animal enclosures - which seems to be a naughty word in some quarters. Seems to be no better reason than that 'enclosure' draws attention to the fact that the animals are captive (as if calling it a 'habitat' changes that).

To say nothing of the fact that 'habitat' and 'environment' have very particular scientific meanings, which zoos (as at least notional scientific organisations, by and large) should recognise.
 
sooty mangabey said:
Agree that the siamang and snow leopard enclosures are improvements on what was there before, but that's not saying a great deal - especially in the case of the siamangs. Does the new siamang enclosure work? I'm not sure.
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I thought exactly the same when I saw the new Siamang enclosure. They have far more space than in that hideous cage they had previously (one of the worst 'modern' primate cages I have ever seen- they must have thought they had the strength of Gorillas...) but despite the large space they can't use it properly as there is not much opportunity to swing/brachiate around at high speed as they do in the wild, because of the design shape and lack of equipment stategically placed. They can climb the netting or the few lianas stretching from the rock but that is not what these Apes are about. It does look very exotic with the temple and water etc but the Siamangs can't make full use of it as it is.
 
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Sorry about the use of habitat and enclosure... I just re-read and made myself wince so many times. Just shows I was up too late x_x


I've seen the Siamang's climbing and swinging round in there. I've seen them climbing on the netting, on the trees and all sorts. Yes they do sit on the grass by the water using leaves and things to play with the water. I wouldn't say it's a totally non-functional enclosure. The indoor housing sees them swinging around for hours, they seem to come out to rest. When the weathers nice, who could blame them. It's rare to have nice days here in the UK :P

The cars in the background of the Snow Leopard enclosure doesn't bother me. Maybe because I focus almost entirely on the animals side of things, the aesthetics of the additional surrounding area doesn't really bother me. I like seeing the Snow Leopards in that enclosure where tehy do take full advantage of it. Yasmin appeared to really enjoy having a high view point and then coming all the way down towards the glass. It's so different to what they were in before that it must feel wonderful for her. As I said before, I haven't seen the 2 new Snowies, so I'll have to get down there soon.

There are things that could change, but there's things to change at every zoo. I wasn't pointing at you Sooty Mangabey or Gary, but I've heard so many poke and pick at Marwell over the years and ignoring their own 'home' zoo's. I'll admit that there are things to do at Marwell, things I'd like to see etc etc. But they are making improvements and they are gradually upgrading everything. I can't wait to see the new Cheetah and Serval enclosures, that'll be amazing.
 
I suppose I am somewhat 'old school' in my approach-I like to see enclosures that the animals can make most use of, but I don't really care what they look like aesthetically.

I recall Durrell stating when he opened Jersey that it was a case of 'make do and mend' but he found animals quite happily settled in old packing crates for dens and bred well, even though he was aware of the shortcomings from a human perspective.

Marwell in the 'old days' was basically a series of stables for the hoofstock, and I didn't/don't have a problem with that.

I don't see why every enclosure should be prettified up if the animals get no benefit of it. I don't level this at Marwell, as they have far fewer of these than most.

It just smacks to me of gimmickry in the same way that the Natural History Museum has animatronic dinosaurs when the real treasures are ignored as 'old bones and stuffed animals'.

Maybe my problem is with the great (or should that be grating?) British public-I for one can't stand most of what passes for entertainment on TV either-maybe I'm just getting old!

Some of the newer enclosures at Marwell are good-there is plenty of space in the Snow Leopard enclosure but it's a bit bare-some more enrichment wouldn't go amiss.

The Siamangs new enclosure is quite impressive, but I think their climbing opportunities are still a bit limited.

The otter enclosure I think does work really well-they seem to make good use of it.

I like the fact you can see the giraffe at head height-more zoos should do it!

I think the Lemurs could do with more climbing material-not sure the walled garden works that well any more-move the Tigers down into a bigger enclosure and convert their area into a lemur/Madagascar walk-through-give em some trees to leap about in.

The vantage point for the Dwarf Buffalo is very good-shame the Sable remain fairly shy, even after all these years.
 
The only enclosure which I genuinelly didn't like in the present was the tamarin walk-through, as it kept you more distant from them than in the previous enclosure, they only came out at feeding time and, as has been proved, the tamarins had to be removed by becoming too grouchy (though this was the visitor's fault). This enclosure is now being converted into a walkthrough aviary, so hopefully it will be a lot better.

I would love to see a few more branches in the gibbon exhibit, and the staff do acknowledge this. The snow leopard exhibit is excellent in my opinion, and I think the best balance is for Marwell to have glitzy 'natural' exhibits in random corners, but with the functional enclosures of it's roots still around. Marwell's success in breeding Somali Wild Ass, Scimitar-Horned Oryx and Pygmy Hippo didn't come from nowhere, and proves the 'Aspinall Method' of enclosure design should still be used.

Marwell does have some new enclosures coming up this year, for all it's money shortages: the new serval and weaverbird enclosures around the Spring and of course the cheetahs in Autumn, and then there's big ones in years to come, like the Nature Reserve in the woods and the gorillas, whenever that happens. But I just don't want Marwell to over-commercialise to the point where the animals in the park appear to be second place, which thankfully it hasn't reached yet. But being the location of my earliest memories, a dedicated oryx club member and an ideal workplace in the future for me, I'll be sticking by Marwell for years to come.
 
Zambar said:
I would love to see a few more branches in the gibbon exhibit, and the staff do acknowledge this.
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What is needed in here is a series of parallel ropes or flexible lengths of bamboo-style beams set in horizontal fashion around the enclosure so the Siamangs can travel around it by swinging. Plus a few small resting platforms high up. They can move amazingly rapidly if the equipment is located properly. At present it is very spacious but the Siamangs can't really use much of this space.
 
I think Marwell is heading in the right direction, although I do feel that Penguins were a mistake and cost the zoo in terms of its reputation, and I wonder if the point was ever to end up with a rather expensive humboldt penguin enclosure. Certainly, they are one of the species of penguin in greatest conservation need, but Marwell were left in a predicament when they lost their more sought-after species and had a large, empty, expensive, penguin exhibit to fill at start of the zoo.

I also feel the tamarin walk-through has shown that the trend towards greater interaction between the public and stock may help visitor numbers, but really caging
some tamarins by the pets corner with visitors entering their exhibit doesn't set them in a good context. I feel that visitors
were more respectful when they saw these animals coming down from the trees to investigate them when they were free-ranging up by the woods opposite the warthogs. Now, behaviourally, they have a group of tamarins which may not be suitable to a free-ranging situation having been fed by visitors.

I would also like to see some simplicity come back to any future exhibits. Marwell has the space and natural beauty to be able to lay off the heavy theming you see in 'Life in the Trees' and the amur leopard exhibit. I agree that the gibbons could be given a wealth of climbing structures as the netted top doesn't really allow for brachiation, although their old house was really in need of replacing of course. I just wonder if they had fenced off a few mature trees similar to Monkey World's siamangs or Dudley's lars and maybe built a raised viewing platform and called it 'Life in the Trees', would any fewer visitors have come to see the new exhibit?

Similarly, although I applaud Marwell for supporting Amur Leopard conservation, the theming of the current exhibit cost them an adult and a cub since its opening, with animals able to find holes in the roof and in between the rocks separating the two enclosures. With such stunning scenery, I just don't think Marwell needs to try so hard, and believe at times this has been to their detriment, in terms of cost and to their reputation. I wonder if the colobus and diana monkeys would work in this exhibit if the leopards were ever to be rehoused.

Speaking of colobus monkeys, is this just ISIS or have the Marwell group really dropped down to just 2.0?
 
Bill said to me once that he'd like to see baboons in the leopard exhibit should they move out (which, if the biomes plan is still in place, is likely) which I agree would look good in there, especially on the rock mound. And one of my Marwell dream enclosures is a clouded leopard enclosure in the woods behind the gibbons, but built functionally like Howletts' cages, thereby creating a contrast of design. I do agree that Marwell would probably find enclosures easier to fund if they stuck to simple designs from time. For example, there in the process of planning a new rhino house, but I wonder if they'll make it much more expensive then it need be on public area (which would be wasted in the warmer months when they're outside). Likewise, I'd like to see the gorilla's enclosure whenever they get them to be something like a larger version of the colobus/diana enclosure.
 
johnstoni said:
Speaking of colobus monkeys, is this just ISIS or have the Marwell group really dropped down to just 2.0?
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In September there were 5 or even 6 Colobus. Have the others all died since then or have they been moved elsewhere?

I also wish they would do something to promote breeding in the Diana Monkey pair- like give them an enclosure totally on their own or try an exchange of partners.
 
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Could one of the Marwell regulars please explain the tamarin walk through, and why it is so widely panned on here?
 
Re Western Blackand white Colobus

Hi Pertinax

According to the inventory on the Marwell website at the start of 2009 Marwell had 2 male and 3 female Western Black and white Colobus monkeys.

During 2009 they had a birth but this unfortunately died.

Also during 2009 two of the females died leaving the 2 males and 1 remaining female as of 31 December 2009.

I don’t know it there has been any further change since the start of this year.

Kwame
 
kiang,

The Tamarin Walk-Through was marketed as one of the main attractions of the rebooted Encounter Village in 2007, and was built on the old rabbit mound and reindeer stable with a path going around it, serving as the 'walk-through'. Before the misbehaviour from the tamarins, I thought other flaws of it:

- As the walk-through was only at one end of a large enclosure, it mean't you only got close to the tamarins if they travelled up to that end (which they usually only did around feeding time).
- Though you were lucky to see them outside at all, as they were more at home in their house most of the time.
- Planting was sparse, meaning a rather barren appearence and lack of cover.
- The door system mean't frequent escapes caused by very stupid visitors.

And of course, the nail in the coffin was that visitors kept feeding them, meaning the tamarins became aggressive in their demand for food, which has closed the walk-through for months now till the tamarins move out and it becomes an aviary.
 
Thanks for clearing that up for me Zambar, it does seem to have been a great idea on paper that was not thought through, which seems to be an opportunity missed.
 
They should have just kept with the previous free-range in the oaks set up (which could no longer be used with the current group now). Perhaps in some of the trees near the entrance if they were still using the biome plan.
 
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