Newby here - butting in. The decision to go with elephants at Melb Zoo was a defining moment for the zoo, and we are now just starting to see the ramifications. The charges themselves are a bit of a beatup, both at Melbourne and Healesville. But people will increasingly question elephants in urban zoos, so this will become a sore that will rub raw for Melbourne. Anything that goes wrong or any minor incident will lead to questions. And God help them if any of the Thai elephants die through misadventure. There are many other things they could have with the money and space. How about an indoor rainforest covering a couple of football fields, with restaurants, to become a venue for winter visitors? They could have kept the tapirs in that without problems. It's been done in Europe with great success. Too late now.
Melbourne Zoo Melbourne zoo- Allegations
- Thread starter Zoo_Boy
- Start date
It's a really tricky balancing act and I would hate to be in the position of management who try to juggle these things. You can never make a decision to please every one.
Melbourne Zoo (or Taronga) can't be expanded but Werribee could be used for future gorilla/elephant/baboon exhibits but there's no talk of that at this point. From what I know the primate collection at Melbourne is being streamlined. (And there are four baboons leaving the troup and two new males arriving some time soon. I know the existing males have all had vasectomies so I assume the new males are being brought in for breeding.....I'm only guessing....they themselves may have been desexed.)
Everyone has great ideas but there's so much red tape and politics on many levels involved. If you are given funding for one area e.g marine precinct, you can't go and spend it on something else no matter how great the need. It takes years to get funding for anything and by the time the funding is approved, something else needs urgent attention.
(In the case of Melbourne, from my observation, is that a large amount of money has been granted for the new marine precinct and in the mean time a new batchelor group of gorillas was created who need their enclosure updated....so they end up waiting.) I haven't even heard a whisper of any improvements to the baboon enclosure (and calling it an enclosure is stretching it.....it's definitely a cage.) Are they happy? Who knows but from observation they're doing fine. They would have all killed each other by now otherwise.
Are my cats happy? Would they be 'happier' if they were left to their own devices out in Melbourne's unpredictable weather or do they prefer lounging on my doona and getting up to eat and eliminate what they've eaten and sit on the balcony chewing cat grass and coriander (which is mine!).
Is a single pet dog abused because it's not part of a pack?
One of the former curators was quoted in The Age as saying that zoo management is focussing more on making money and looking at entertaining adults to raise revenue. Fortunately there's been a change in management. Unfortunately if governments don't give zoos the money they need (and in the case of Melb Zoo it's quoted they receive less than 30% of funding from the govt) then it has to come from somewhere.
We should probably be on the government's back to give out more money. And not just for zoos. The RSPCA, Lost Dog's Home, Guide Dogs.....all rely on public money. (And if the government laws about desexing and selling animals was changed, their jobs would be easier....but this is another topic.)
Werribee Open Range Zoo was put in an area that initially had room to expand but that part of Melbourne is now one of the fastest growing regions in Victoria. It won't be long before there's no room out there either.
Also, Glyn, unlike most of us here on this forum, there is a huge anti zoo lobby (and I believe Mr Wirth is part of it) who will never be happy with anything any zoo does.
Many of the anti zoo lobby forget that so many of the animals in zoos don't have a home to go to and most of them are refugees and the remnants of a different 'stolen generation'. Melbourne Zoo has many ex rehab and rescued animals.
Anyway, I could go on and on......and on.....
Melbourne Zoo (or Taronga) can't be expanded but Werribee could be used for future gorilla/elephant/baboon exhibits but there's no talk of that at this point. From what I know the primate collection at Melbourne is being streamlined. (And there are four baboons leaving the troup and two new males arriving some time soon. I know the existing males have all had vasectomies so I assume the new males are being brought in for breeding.....I'm only guessing....they themselves may have been desexed.)
Everyone has great ideas but there's so much red tape and politics on many levels involved. If you are given funding for one area e.g marine precinct, you can't go and spend it on something else no matter how great the need. It takes years to get funding for anything and by the time the funding is approved, something else needs urgent attention.
(In the case of Melbourne, from my observation, is that a large amount of money has been granted for the new marine precinct and in the mean time a new batchelor group of gorillas was created who need their enclosure updated....so they end up waiting.) I haven't even heard a whisper of any improvements to the baboon enclosure (and calling it an enclosure is stretching it.....it's definitely a cage.) Are they happy? Who knows but from observation they're doing fine. They would have all killed each other by now otherwise.
Are my cats happy? Would they be 'happier' if they were left to their own devices out in Melbourne's unpredictable weather or do they prefer lounging on my doona and getting up to eat and eliminate what they've eaten and sit on the balcony chewing cat grass and coriander (which is mine!).
Is a single pet dog abused because it's not part of a pack?
One of the former curators was quoted in The Age as saying that zoo management is focussing more on making money and looking at entertaining adults to raise revenue. Fortunately there's been a change in management. Unfortunately if governments don't give zoos the money they need (and in the case of Melb Zoo it's quoted they receive less than 30% of funding from the govt) then it has to come from somewhere.
We should probably be on the government's back to give out more money. And not just for zoos. The RSPCA, Lost Dog's Home, Guide Dogs.....all rely on public money. (And if the government laws about desexing and selling animals was changed, their jobs would be easier....but this is another topic.)
Werribee Open Range Zoo was put in an area that initially had room to expand but that part of Melbourne is now one of the fastest growing regions in Victoria. It won't be long before there's no room out there either.
Also, Glyn, unlike most of us here on this forum, there is a huge anti zoo lobby (and I believe Mr Wirth is part of it) who will never be happy with anything any zoo does.
Many of the anti zoo lobby forget that so many of the animals in zoos don't have a home to go to and most of them are refugees and the remnants of a different 'stolen generation'. Melbourne Zoo has many ex rehab and rescued animals.
Anyway, I could go on and on......and on.....
Django, you're right.
Melb Zoo will always be under the spotlight.
Here's my prediction: In the next few years there will another article about neglect following the death of several big and small cats. How do I know? Because many of the existing cats are already OLD. And when they go.....they will go one after the other in quick succession.
This future article will not mention that the cats are pretty old and the zoo has done a wonderful job in looking after them to such a ripe old age.....all of the zoos big (and small) cats are well into their teens and they still have all their teeth! I wish I was so lucky!
....just remember I told you this.....
Melb Zoo will always be under the spotlight.
Here's my prediction: In the next few years there will another article about neglect following the death of several big and small cats. How do I know? Because many of the existing cats are already OLD. And when they go.....they will go one after the other in quick succession.
This future article will not mention that the cats are pretty old and the zoo has done a wonderful job in looking after them to such a ripe old age.....all of the zoos big (and small) cats are well into their teens and they still have all their teeth! I wish I was so lucky!
....just remember I told you this.....
I second this prediction as what will be looked at is the fact that lots of animals died in a small amount of time, not why they died.
Further to the Healseville accusations. I have a question. One of the 'bad' things is that they hand raised a red tailed black cockatoo. Why is it bad bad for the zoo to do this when when millions of parrots are hand raised for the pet trade around the world?
NZ Jeremy
Well-Known Member
Hello Django it seems we have a new well considered, intelligent member on the boards..! Always a great addition..!
At the start of 2006 I became interested in zoos (rabid some may say) and my first "zoo trip" was in March 2006, I decided to go to Melbourne and Werribee... Why, because I had a Melbourne Zoo book when I was a little kid...
I enjoyed the zoo, at that time it was the largest I'd been too...
I caught the train so I started my trip at the lower entrance... I loved the species I'd never seen before which seemed relatively happy, healthy and in average to good enclosures (for my uniniatiated eyes at that time)...
I thought the big and small cat enclosures where too small, too 1970's... I saw the bears with display stereotypical behaviours... The Sea Lion pool was dissapointing... I found the Lion enclosure drab... However I loved Reptile and Frog Houses, I liked the Australian area of the zoo and found the Asia and African Rainforest modern and aestheticly pleasing...
Towards the middle of the zoo was a "1900's" (empty) Lion cage which the zoo had to show how far they and others had come... I was impressed I thought it bold to admit failings in the past...
My feeling of being impressed changed less than a few 100 yards away when I saw the baboon enclosure... I was truly shocked, especially when you consider that another 100 yards or so away is the best enclosure (Pygmy Hippos/Mandrills) at the zoo...
On this site we talk alot about how if zoos designed exhibits solely with what was best for the animals in mind, zoos could have many more animals, that were twice as "happy", in exhibits far better suited to them and for half the cost but would look far worse to the human eye...
Glyn you say these animals are thriving..?
IMHO the zoo should jackhammer up the concrete, adding heavy planting (hopefully selecting plants the animals wouldn't destroy), add logs, ropes and rotating BE's... This shouldn't cost too much and some much needed green IS required... If only to not turn people's opinion from Wow to Eww, as mine was about 2 years ago...
I agree that this is a MAJOR issue... You talk about individual exhibits and species in an Australasian context... My personal opinion is "future proofing" extends to ALL Western Zoos...
Zoo governing bodies, councils etc are making MASSIVE investments in zoos... If the majority of these exhibits are not considered functional and "attractive" in 50 years time (unless they have ascepts of functionality and "attractiveness"), along with proven educational and conversation aspects in 50 years time, zoos may well be headed in the direction of animals at the circuses (at least in the majority of public opinion) and that would be a tradegy... I believe the exhibits produced between 2000 and 2020 will define zoos, both as good and bad, both worth keeping or not...
These are two of my favoruite species, in particular Snow Leopards and I find it annoying no Snow Leopards are in NZ, especially considering our climate compared to Australia...
Its interesting Laura Mumaw was mentioned in a negative light... She was at Auckland Zoo before Melbourne and the amount of money poured into the zoo while she was in charge was amazing, it was a turn around (exhibit wise) at Auckland Zoo, maybe though the animals suffered, as an outsider I don't know... No similar stories like this came out at that time I can remember...
And finally on the topic of animal violence, etc... I feel I've come accross as not siding with animal violence in any situation, if a human life was at stake sure, any means necesary... From the article it does not sound like the mans life was at stake (maybe his ego)...
I don't want to sound like I'm backtracking, being in the Police I've had to hit PEOPLE before...
What I do believe is that an Elephant shouldn't be stabbed, under any circumstances, ever (except life threatening)... If you cannot control your Elephant switch control methods or relocate the animal somewhere that can... I also don't believe Jarkari should be hitting her dog at home cause she can't be bothered training it properly or is quick to anger...
At the start of 2006 I became interested in zoos (rabid some may say) and my first "zoo trip" was in March 2006, I decided to go to Melbourne and Werribee... Why, because I had a Melbourne Zoo book when I was a little kid...
I enjoyed the zoo, at that time it was the largest I'd been too...
I caught the train so I started my trip at the lower entrance... I loved the species I'd never seen before which seemed relatively happy, healthy and in average to good enclosures (for my uniniatiated eyes at that time)...
I thought the big and small cat enclosures where too small, too 1970's... I saw the bears with display stereotypical behaviours... The Sea Lion pool was dissapointing... I found the Lion enclosure drab... However I loved Reptile and Frog Houses, I liked the Australian area of the zoo and found the Asia and African Rainforest modern and aestheticly pleasing...
Towards the middle of the zoo was a "1900's" (empty) Lion cage which the zoo had to show how far they and others had come... I was impressed I thought it bold to admit failings in the past...
My feeling of being impressed changed less than a few 100 yards away when I saw the baboon enclosure... I was truly shocked, especially when you consider that another 100 yards or so away is the best enclosure (Pygmy Hippos/Mandrills) at the zoo...
On this site we talk alot about how if zoos designed exhibits solely with what was best for the animals in mind, zoos could have many more animals, that were twice as "happy", in exhibits far better suited to them and for half the cost but would look far worse to the human eye...
Glyn you say these animals are thriving..?
IMHO the zoo should jackhammer up the concrete, adding heavy planting (hopefully selecting plants the animals wouldn't destroy), add logs, ropes and rotating BE's... This shouldn't cost too much and some much needed green IS required... If only to not turn people's opinion from Wow to Eww, as mine was about 2 years ago...
I agree that this is a MAJOR issue... You talk about individual exhibits and species in an Australasian context... My personal opinion is "future proofing" extends to ALL Western Zoos...
Zoo governing bodies, councils etc are making MASSIVE investments in zoos... If the majority of these exhibits are not considered functional and "attractive" in 50 years time (unless they have ascepts of functionality and "attractiveness"), along with proven educational and conversation aspects in 50 years time, zoos may well be headed in the direction of animals at the circuses (at least in the majority of public opinion) and that would be a tradegy... I believe the exhibits produced between 2000 and 2020 will define zoos, both as good and bad, both worth keeping or not...
These are two of my favoruite species, in particular Snow Leopards and I find it annoying no Snow Leopards are in NZ, especially considering our climate compared to Australia...
Its interesting Laura Mumaw was mentioned in a negative light... She was at Auckland Zoo before Melbourne and the amount of money poured into the zoo while she was in charge was amazing, it was a turn around (exhibit wise) at Auckland Zoo, maybe though the animals suffered, as an outsider I don't know... No similar stories like this came out at that time I can remember...
And finally on the topic of animal violence, etc... I feel I've come accross as not siding with animal violence in any situation, if a human life was at stake sure, any means necesary... From the article it does not sound like the mans life was at stake (maybe his ego)...
I don't want to sound like I'm backtracking, being in the Police I've had to hit PEOPLE before...
What I do believe is that an Elephant shouldn't be stabbed, under any circumstances, ever (except life threatening)... If you cannot control your Elephant switch control methods or relocate the animal somewhere that can... I also don't believe Jarkari should be hitting her dog at home cause she can't be bothered training it properly or is quick to anger...
I didn't quite understand what the issue was there, either.
I thought that hand reared birds were easier to handle and that the pet trade did the same thing. I'm not sure why Healesville got a negative wrap for this.
Besides, what does the poultry industry do with their chicks? And who's watching them?
is jarkari a girl? lol
funny you mentioned greening up the hamadryas baboon enclosure....it says alot about how we project as being 'natural' onto animals. as a desert species putting hamadryas baboons into a 'greener' exhibit would probably be as 'unnatural' as them living in concrete.
i really dont think the baboons are suffering, although i think the zoos' community standing may be dropping stemming from old exhibits like that one.
i truly believe, and have made the point repeatedly that Melbourne Zoo should focus on creating and expanding its emphasis on tropical and forest biomes with less emphasis on grasslands. species like giraffe and zebra should be relocated and displayed exclusively by Weribee, leaving space for Melbourne to potentially expand Trail of the Elephants again. such an expansion need not be expensive but it would help to combat negative opinion.
Melbourne would also do well to create a New Guinea/Indonesian precinct, and an Asian Highlands Zone. the proposed Big Cat Feeding Ring sounds ambitious and probably be succesful if done sensitively, but a development along the lines of Predator Ridge in (which?) American Zoo featuring a few key African carnivore species like Lions, Hyeana or Hunting Dog would probably be a better compromise.
Overall Melbourne Zoo is a great zoo! unfortunately it suffers from the economic rationalisation of its respective Government. the zoo should actually be applauded. it manages to balance its books on only 30% Government subsidy as well as open some incredible new exhibits in recent years, maintain high standards of animal welfare and back this work up with strong links to field conservation.
Laura Mumaw and Guy Cooper (of Taronga Zoo) both evoke strong reactions from the zoo community itself. there is a strong feeling that they operate or operated along overly commercial lines. to an extent I agree, but I also believe both need to be recognised as leading their institutions and positioning them to face the future. it is now much easier for both zoos to make other changes (such as perhaps reexamining and redefining their success paramaters) when more people than ever are coming through the gates.
funny you mentioned greening up the hamadryas baboon enclosure....it says alot about how we project as being 'natural' onto animals. as a desert species putting hamadryas baboons into a 'greener' exhibit would probably be as 'unnatural' as them living in concrete.
i really dont think the baboons are suffering, although i think the zoos' community standing may be dropping stemming from old exhibits like that one.
i truly believe, and have made the point repeatedly that Melbourne Zoo should focus on creating and expanding its emphasis on tropical and forest biomes with less emphasis on grasslands. species like giraffe and zebra should be relocated and displayed exclusively by Weribee, leaving space for Melbourne to potentially expand Trail of the Elephants again. such an expansion need not be expensive but it would help to combat negative opinion.
Melbourne would also do well to create a New Guinea/Indonesian precinct, and an Asian Highlands Zone. the proposed Big Cat Feeding Ring sounds ambitious and probably be succesful if done sensitively, but a development along the lines of Predator Ridge in (which?) American Zoo featuring a few key African carnivore species like Lions, Hyeana or Hunting Dog would probably be a better compromise.
Overall Melbourne Zoo is a great zoo! unfortunately it suffers from the economic rationalisation of its respective Government. the zoo should actually be applauded. it manages to balance its books on only 30% Government subsidy as well as open some incredible new exhibits in recent years, maintain high standards of animal welfare and back this work up with strong links to field conservation.
Laura Mumaw and Guy Cooper (of Taronga Zoo) both evoke strong reactions from the zoo community itself. there is a strong feeling that they operate or operated along overly commercial lines. to an extent I agree, but I also believe both need to be recognised as leading their institutions and positioning them to face the future. it is now much easier for both zoos to make other changes (such as perhaps reexamining and redefining their success paramaters) when more people than ever are coming through the gates.
I visited a chicken farm recently where tens of thousands of chickens live in a hot metal shed. You can't tell me that that is good care of the birds. Zoos are an easy and emtional target.
lets face it. zoos in Australia do a very good job of looking after their animals and if zoo animals were viewed in a national context which examined every animal industry and use from fishing to pet shops, abbatoirs to agriculture and from circuses to research labs im 100% sure theyd rank number one for animal welfare.
it says alot about a society when we can get so worked over an elephant being jabbed but the millions of eggs produced by battery hens and consumed daily doesnt get a mention at all. ever
it says alot about a society when we can get so worked over an elephant being jabbed but the millions of eggs produced by battery hens and consumed daily doesnt get a mention at all. ever
NZ Jeremy
Well-Known Member
and i think snow leopards are heading to orana wildlife park too! so watch out NZ JEREMY.
Don't you tease me Glyn..! That make me a happy boy...
Is Jarkari male or female? Ha! (male is my guess)
Just another note on the damn hamadryas baboon enclosure, which half the members of ZooBeat have justifiably blasted at one time or another. Yes, we all know that the Melbourne Zoo has a poor baboon cage which should be bulldozed. So look no farther than the Adelaide Zoo, which has a decent enclosure for that species.
Just another note on the damn hamadryas baboon enclosure, which half the members of ZooBeat have justifiably blasted at one time or another. Yes, we all know that the Melbourne Zoo has a poor baboon cage which should be bulldozed. So look no farther than the Adelaide Zoo, which has a decent enclosure for that species.
I remember when snow leopards were at Wellington Zoo (I think it was back in about 1987), and they had just had some cubs. I got to go into the den and hold the cubs while they were being treated for pink-eye (or something like that). Very cute wee things they were.
i told you so....
i'm sorry to have to say this but, i told you so. (even though many didn't disagree)
look what's happening! already melbourne is under fire again about the treatment of its elephants. this is after spening millions on a new exhibit an importing more animals to form a herd.
and i always said it was a band-aid solution that wouldn't last long. remember everyones first perception of "trail of the elephants"? you were surprised how small it was right?
and there lies the problem.
melbourne zoo shouldn't waste a single cent expanding that exhibit, because the melbourne zoo will never have enough room to allocate for its elephants. instead we should admit it was a $10 million waste of money. money that could have been spent on a truly decent enclosure at werribee or one of many other much needed projects for the zoo.
this type of bad press isn't going to stop. all over the world, people are over elephants in urban zoos, full stop.
but unfortunately laura and guy are totally out of touch with reality and the future of the modern zoo. what they did was make the biggest ****-up in both zoos histories.
the "wild asia" and "trail of the elephants" will both be empty ten years from now, i guarantee it!
i'm sorry to have to say this but, i told you so. (even though many didn't disagree)
look what's happening! already melbourne is under fire again about the treatment of its elephants. this is after spening millions on a new exhibit an importing more animals to form a herd.
and i always said it was a band-aid solution that wouldn't last long. remember everyones first perception of "trail of the elephants"? you were surprised how small it was right?
and there lies the problem.
melbourne zoo shouldn't waste a single cent expanding that exhibit, because the melbourne zoo will never have enough room to allocate for its elephants. instead we should admit it was a $10 million waste of money. money that could have been spent on a truly decent enclosure at werribee or one of many other much needed projects for the zoo.
this type of bad press isn't going to stop. all over the world, people are over elephants in urban zoos, full stop.
but unfortunately laura and guy are totally out of touch with reality and the future of the modern zoo. what they did was make the biggest ****-up in both zoos histories.
the "wild asia" and "trail of the elephants" will both be empty ten years from now, i guarantee it!
Zoo chief's home became menagerie for fund-raising event - National
And so it goes on.
What about the young farmyard animals, chickens, lambs, kids etc that are taken to shopping centres on school holidays so that they can be mauled and gawked at by thousands of small children. Surely that must stress the animals out. What is the difference.
While Melbournbe zoo has brought some of this bad publicity on itself, re Rigo, the treatment of the elephants and the seals. This is really going too far. The hypocrisy of the RSPCA is really starting to get me annoyed. The zoo is being treated as a soft target and the RSPCA is being two faced.
And so it goes on.
What about the young farmyard animals, chickens, lambs, kids etc that are taken to shopping centres on school holidays so that they can be mauled and gawked at by thousands of small children. Surely that must stress the animals out. What is the difference.
While Melbournbe zoo has brought some of this bad publicity on itself, re Rigo, the treatment of the elephants and the seals. This is really going too far. The hypocrisy of the RSPCA is really starting to get me annoyed. The zoo is being treated as a soft target and the RSPCA is being two faced.