Mjuku is the grandaughter of female 'Kaja' (who is dead now). She and Kibabu were both fathered by Howlett's first breeding male 'Kisoro' who came from Lincoln Park, Chicago in the USA .
Taronga Zoo Update on Taronga's Overseas Gorilla Troop
- Thread starter Axl
- Start date
Mjuku is the grandaughter of female 'Kaja' (who is dead now). She and Kibabu were both fathered by Howlett's first breeding male 'Kisoro' who came from Lincoln Park, Chicago in the USA .
Stop dreaming about AI in Melbourne and Taronga, AI is not working well with gorillas. As far as I am aware of, the only infant ever produced by AI is Rigo`s son Ya Kwanza. And as Pertinax pointed out, Rigo`s sperm quality will be pretty bad now given his age.
Melbourne will most likely bring in a new male to breed with their females within the next years. So no need to ship the young females away. Temporarily sending Johari to Taronga wouldn`t work anyway, since she couldn`t return with an infant without it getting killed by the future silverback. And gorillas are animals with very complex social needs, you can`t just ship them around for breeding like horses. Introducing a female to an existing family and then removing her a year or two later will only disrupt the social bonds and disturb her.
Melbourne will most likely bring in a new male to breed with their females within the next years. So no need to ship the young females away. Temporarily sending Johari to Taronga wouldn`t work anyway, since she couldn`t return with an infant without it getting killed by the future silverback. And gorillas are animals with very complex social needs, you can`t just ship them around for breeding like horses. Introducing a female to an existing family and then removing her a year or two later will only disrupt the social bonds and disturb her.
For Rigo, AI is the last resort. Melbourne would rather breed from a wild born male than a captive born one, due to his genetics being valuable (but as Pertinax pointed out there are others that are even more valuable). I would imagine Melbourne would try a few more times on the older females G-Anne and Julia because I think both are wild caught and have one offspring each (who were not fathered by Rigo). Otherwise, if they do acquire a new male, Rigo will have to be moved to most probably Werribee as a bachelor. It is a sad story really.
As I said, Melbourne is desparate to breed their gorillas. Johari is a more valuable female than M'beli and is young. My initial thought was to bring a new male in but I think Rigo will get new chances. I guess you got me there Yassa. I can't really respond to your last paragraph as there is nothing else to say.
Getting back to Taronga gorillas overseas, Shabani seems to be in a small group with a fairly old female and a fairly young female. Do you know if Higiyashima plan to get more females for Shabani?
Rigo seems to have had every chance and shown he's not up to the job of mating females (he's had a choice of four(?) now)- for whatever reason- possibly due to his ridiculously long period of enforced isolation.
A 'good' male will often mate with new females in the early days(sometimes the first hours even) of their introductions if he's interested in them, and if allowed, would probably breed with all the available females at Melbourne. Melbourne seem to cling to the hope that things will improve with Rigo, but that's very unlikely after this length of time with nothing happening.I believe they even removed him at one stage because the females were dominating him- that's another sign of a 'soft' male that is unlikely to become a successful breeder.
If they are that keen to breed, they'll need to remove Rigo from the group and bring in a new unrelated male e.g. from the USA. Preferably a mature, socially adept one in the age range 12-20 that can deal with a group of females and manage them properly. What to do with Rigo then again becomes a problem as he's very unlikely to live happily with Motaba and his sons, so he could end up being solitary again. But until he's replaced I don't expect to hear of any baby gorillas in Melbourne.
I imagine they will now waste another year or two while they repeatedly try, (and fail?) with AI though.
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Indeed, wishful thinking as per Pertinax's comments.
I can accept that Rigo is poorly represented, but trying and trying year-on-year socially inept gorillas is not what I perceive we should be striving for.
Also, in the genetic component poor breeders remain just that ... a dead lineage.
I can accept that Rigo is poorly represented, but trying and trying year-on-year socially inept gorillas is not what I perceive we should be striving for.
Also, in the genetic component poor breeders remain just that ... a dead lineage.
I would think its more a case of can they get any from anywhere? Females are still at quite a premium for adding to existing groups so there is probably a long waiting list in with the Studbook organisers.
Melbourne could very easily refurbish their old ape grottoes to be an acceptable 2nd (or more) outdoor enclosure. Demolishing the dividing walls, moat filling, mesh frames - there are a number of design options available that could be applied to these exhibit to make better use of the space and retrofit them into something that we would consider acceptable.
If joined together they would be larger than the Taronga exhibit.
This would allow the Zoo to manage its gorilla population far more effectively and humanely, Rigo could be again removed form the main group. However enclosure rotation would allow him to have a far improved quality of life.
My main issue with Melbournes treatment of Rigo was not so much his isolation from other gorillas (though i feel they never gave him a proper chance to integrate with females other than Yuska and Betsy) but the fact that he was never given access to the main rainforest enclosure.
I would love to see a second multisex troope established at Melbourne Zoo.
If joined together they would be larger than the Taronga exhibit.
This would allow the Zoo to manage its gorilla population far more effectively and humanely, Rigo could be again removed form the main group. However enclosure rotation would allow him to have a far improved quality of life.
My main issue with Melbournes treatment of Rigo was not so much his isolation from other gorillas (though i feel they never gave him a proper chance to integrate with females other than Yuska and Betsy) but the fact that he was never given access to the main rainforest enclosure.
I would love to see a second multisex troope established at Melbourne Zoo.
They could indeed turn the old Grottoes ino a perfectly aceptable smaller 'habitat'. They could also 'retire' Rigo in there with e.g. just Yuska for company- one or two zoos in Europe have sent elderly post-breeding pairs to Zoos in places like Spain.
Thanks, I'll fix that.
I think transfering Mahale to Orana Park with Kibabu, Fataki and Fuzu is an excellent idea. Unless he is in high demand anywhere else in the region it would be in his best interests to remain with familiar gorillas. Taronga Zoo has already reported he gets on well with Fuzu who is close in age to him.
I would be surprised however if Mbeli did return to Taronga as the females Kimya, Kipenzi and any other offspring produced in the next two years (up to two are likely) would fullfill the demand for females. Although if no female offspring were born between now and 2013 then it could be a possibility. Wouldn't that be a nice surprise for Mouila to see her daughter again. I know Mbeli got on really well with Kimya and I was quite surprised they were not relocated together like Shinda and Kijivu were in 2001.
I don't think any zoo would want Mahale or further offspring from Kibabu simply because he is very well represented in Europe and maybe US (I think his father came from Lowry Park?)?
Taronga have stated Kipenzi will be the last offspring of Kibabu, he has retired for breeding and now Taronga is just waiting for Orana to finish their enclosure (not for another few years). I think M'beli went to Melbourne as she was older than Kimya while Kimya was still young (about the current age of Fuzu) and still dependent on her mother. M'beli is still too young to breed I believe as I think they sexually mature at 10 years old, but females may sexually mature younger?
Kibabu's father was 'Kisoro' who came from Lincoln Park, Chicago. Kisoro's line is very well represented through his successful breeding at Howletts, and his many descendants both there and elsewhere (such as Chessington, Jersey, France, Taronga/Japan etc). More so than in the USA although he was already a proven breeder with one or two offspring in the States and he returned there(to a different zoo) after his time at Howletts.
I presume the youngest male at Taronga will eventually join the other three in NZ, but he may be rather too young to leave his mother when they leave. So he could be sent on later? Males from this line are certainly not in any demand in Europe for further breeding.
Females are normally ready to breed aged 8, sometimes even earlier. Some zoos prefer to leave them a bit later than that, but 8 years is quite normal.
Some females such as Mouila had her first baby at the age of seven. Mouila was born in 1972 and her daughter Kriba was born in 1979.
I am however concerned at the management of the troop in regards to Frala. Taronga Zoo stated: Frala is a relatively nervous and unpredictable member of the Kibabu family, sometimes being a little off-hand and abrupt with the other group members. Her brusque behaviour is no doubt due to the fact that Mouila, Kriba and their children form the central clique in Kibabu’s group. This sometimes leaves Frala a bit of a social outsider.
Gorilla society is heavily based on status which is influenced by the number of offspring a female has in the group. As of 2013, Frala's position will be further weakened by the departure of her only two remaining offspring while Kriba gets to keep her two daughters and Mouila has a daughter and two granddaughters. It has been mentioned that Kipenzi will be the last offspring of Kibabu so any offspring Frala does produce by the new silverback will be ultimately relocated to otehr institutions.
It would be more suitable to allow Frala to have another baby this year (assuming she continues her 4 year gaps: 1991-1995-1999-2003-2007) and then keep Kimya, Kipenzi and Frala's 2011 baby (everyone hope for a girl) as the breeding females while allowing Mouila, Kriba and Frala to remain in the group as non-breeding females who can offer support to their daughters.
I am however concerned at the management of the troop in regards to Frala. Taronga Zoo stated: Frala is a relatively nervous and unpredictable member of the Kibabu family, sometimes being a little off-hand and abrupt with the other group members. Her brusque behaviour is no doubt due to the fact that Mouila, Kriba and their children form the central clique in Kibabu’s group. This sometimes leaves Frala a bit of a social outsider.
Gorilla society is heavily based on status which is influenced by the number of offspring a female has in the group. As of 2013, Frala's position will be further weakened by the departure of her only two remaining offspring while Kriba gets to keep her two daughters and Mouila has a daughter and two granddaughters. It has been mentioned that Kipenzi will be the last offspring of Kibabu so any offspring Frala does produce by the new silverback will be ultimately relocated to otehr institutions.
It would be more suitable to allow Frala to have another baby this year (assuming she continues her 4 year gaps: 1991-1995-1999-2003-2007) and then keep Kimya, Kipenzi and Frala's 2011 baby (everyone hope for a girl) as the breeding females while allowing Mouila, Kriba and Frala to remain in the group as non-breeding females who can offer support to their daughters.
Seven years is quite common- these females are probably conceiving in their sixth year. A female at Ramat Gan in Israel had an inbred son by her own father at age seven- they obviously thought it was still 'safe' to keep them together- but it wasn't!
Interesting observations about Frala. As well as the causes for this behaviour which the Zoo cites, its interesting that in one of the films about the group's move from Apenheul to Taronga, the Apenheul keeper describes the various animals' personalities/temperaments and even then described her as "basically, Frala is a bitch.." so it seems she has always somewhat been like that!
Spot on about the balance of power in a group resting with the number of related offspring the various females have. Frala could lose out if she has no support in this way in the future. At Chessington(UK), they are letting the female 'Asili' breed again for the same reason, as it was her daughter 'Mjuku' that was moved to London Zoo and her mother is now outnumbered by her halfsister Shani's family.
More sad news on Frala's family, her eldest son Kukuma has died at the Belfast Zoo:
09 March 2011
We are sad to announce the recent death of Kukuma, our male western lowland gorilla.
Kukuma was born in 1989 in Apenheul Primate Park, in The Netherlands and moved to Belfast Zoo in 1993 as part of a global collaborative breeding programme for western lowland gorillas. In the 18 years he lived at Belfast Zoo, Kukuma became a firm favourite both with visitors and the keeping staff due to his wonderful nature and personality.
Belfast Zoo’s vet, Michael Griffith, had been closely monitoring Kukuma’s health in the weeks preceeding his death as he was dull and his appetite was poor. “Kukuma was found to be anaemic and with the assistance of Dr. Hamilton, from the Ulster Hospital, we carried out further tests including a bone marrow biopsy. Unfortunately further problems developed and Kukuma sadly died on 25 February 2011.”
At this stage we are awaiting autopsy results. We would like to take this opportunity to thank local medical professionals and European zoo staff and vets who gave their help and support.
Curator Julie Mansell and the zoo team are distressed at the loss of Kukuma. “Kukuma was definitely one of the biggest characters in the zoo and will be greatly missed by the team especially those who had worked with him since his arrival over 18 years ago. He is a huge loss to staff and the rest of the western lowland gorilla group.”
Mother of seven Frala has four surviving offspring: Shinda, Anguka, Fataki and Fuzu
09 March 2011
We are sad to announce the recent death of Kukuma, our male western lowland gorilla.
Kukuma was born in 1989 in Apenheul Primate Park, in The Netherlands and moved to Belfast Zoo in 1993 as part of a global collaborative breeding programme for western lowland gorillas. In the 18 years he lived at Belfast Zoo, Kukuma became a firm favourite both with visitors and the keeping staff due to his wonderful nature and personality.
Belfast Zoo’s vet, Michael Griffith, had been closely monitoring Kukuma’s health in the weeks preceeding his death as he was dull and his appetite was poor. “Kukuma was found to be anaemic and with the assistance of Dr. Hamilton, from the Ulster Hospital, we carried out further tests including a bone marrow biopsy. Unfortunately further problems developed and Kukuma sadly died on 25 February 2011.”
At this stage we are awaiting autopsy results. We would like to take this opportunity to thank local medical professionals and European zoo staff and vets who gave their help and support.
Curator Julie Mansell and the zoo team are distressed at the loss of Kukuma. “Kukuma was definitely one of the biggest characters in the zoo and will be greatly missed by the team especially those who had worked with him since his arrival over 18 years ago. He is a huge loss to staff and the rest of the western lowland gorilla group.”
Mother of seven Frala has four surviving offspring: Shinda, Anguka, Fataki and Fuzu
Kukuma was castrated when he was still at Apenheul, presumably to see if a male not needed for future breeding could live in a social group okay. As a result he never developed the typical silverback characteristics but seemed to get along fine during all his years at Belfast, though I don't know exactly what his place was in the dynamics of their group.
Frala's daughter Anguka, now at Lisbon,Portugal, had her first baby last October but it did not survive.
Frala's daughter Anguka, now at Lisbon,Portugal, had her first baby last October but it did not survive.
Thanks for that update about Anguka, that's really sad news. Do they know the cause of death?
Thanks for that update about Anguka, that's really sad news. Do they know the cause of death?
I am not sure if it was viable or if it was a stillbirth. She carried it about for several days though. I will post on here if I find out anymore. Hopefully she will be pregnant again by now.
Another interesting thing is that the father 'Nasibu' comes from a maternal line with a questionmark hanging over it- his grandmother 'Delilah' lost a number of babies at Bristol and later Belfast Zoos(she still lives there) and Nasibu is her only living descendant. There were suggestions(or excuses?) at the time that she carried a lethal 'gene' that caused most of her babies to die. This was never proved of course and I hope that this recent DNS at Lisbon was just an unfortunate glitch and not from some inherant cause.
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That is the plain and simple way to say it
. I presum Frala is the one who always sits by herself on the left hand side of the exhibit (last time she was close to the furthest left hotwired plants). It seems quite disappointing (not trying to sound like Taronga has to force her to like the others) that Frala is an outsider, she sits there watching the others but as far away as she can. Hopefully she can have a daughter, as she is the only non-related female in the group.
That is the plain and simple way to say it
It is quite amusing
- being dutch he says it in slightly accented english, and with a smile on his face- but that's how he described her!It does sound as if she sits where she does because she has no family in the group.
At Chessington when they had just a single group, the wildcaught female 'Baffia' who has never bred, was very much the lowest ranker and an outsider, despite being much older than the other related females.
Have you seen the film(s) of the Apenheul/Taronga transportation?
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