Edinburgh Zoo Sad at some sights in Edin Zoo

[Ginnieb]

Hi, I'm new to the forum and found it as I searched the web for comments on Edinburgh Zoo relating to the welfare of some animals there.
I went to the Zoo for the first time in over ten years with my little nephew as he wanted to see the pandas. I was there last week and was enjoying watching the African Painted Dogs and then on to see the Penguins. Next was the Pandas. I saw one, asleep and as told the other was sleeping indoors. I asked a question of the keeper, 'was this enclosure bigger than that they had just left in China (as to me it seemed small for a Panda)? I was told much bigger and better. I have since discovered by looking at video footage of the Pandas in China they had much larger and what appear to be more natural looking enclosures. The press today now stated that one of the Pandas has colic and is unwell and not been out for a few days. I thought the Edinburgh Zoo Panda enclosure looked very unnatural and cramped compared to what they had in China.

I honestly didn't go to the Zoo to pick up on problems but instead found they were so blatant and obvious I couldn't ignore what I saw and felt very sad for the animals involved. I would appreciate what others think of what I saw and your comments please.

The Leopard: I saw very obvious signs of distress and anxiety. The leopard paced back and forward, back and forward constantly and had a glazed look in its eyes. Even my nephew said he thought it looked unhappy and offered it his teddy against the glass to play with. I said not to do that but the leopard just glanced sideways and continued to pace. A woman next to me said she comes to the zoo regularly and it always does that. I was shocked. I since looked online for info and see that youtube has a number of videos with the leopard doing just that. Surely this should not be allowed to continue? Shouldn't the zoo take action to move the animal somewhere larger or more suitable? I can't get the thought out of my mind that it is going stir crazy pacing on a daily basis.
Chimps in the Budongo Trail: Many of the chimps seem to have mange or some sort of skin disease? The have bald patches and were constantly scratching. I know chimps have fleas but surely not to the point where they have great bald patches on their backs and bodies? Can anyone explain if this is normal - perhaps they go through a moult?
The Sea Lion:
My god I have never felt so sorry for an animal. On it's own swimming around and around in never ending circles in that black oily looking filthy water. Can this be good welfare? I was shocked to see this.
A little Pygmy Hedgehog in a floor level glass tank in Brilliant Birds entrance - This little thing I felt really sorry for, all curled up asleep against the glass, the tank is TINY and very dark, and then even worse, I was shocked to notice that the plants inside are Plastic!!!. This was pretty awful and I felt I wanted to rescue it!
Raven Enclosure:
I first spotted this when I heard what I recognized to be a distress signal from a raven - I live next to a forest in Perthshire and have rescued a few who have been trapped in fencing and also two that came down my chimney before I put a chimney guard up. I saw a wire enclosure and saw a raven that looked like it was trying to unravel a piece of wire in the fence. I watched for a few minutes as it called and tried to twist this and thought the poor thing had got itself trapped inside an enclosure and was about to report it to a member of staff. Then I saw that it was in fact a Raven Enclosure! I was again saddened to see that these highly intelligent birds were behind wire and this particular one was trying it's best to figure out how to open the wires and making distressed sounds that I fully recognize as such.
At that point I had to leave the Zoo and have made a concerted decision never to return.
I am not a complainer or animal activist or against Zoos (although feel I could well be now after what I saw). I know there are much worse zoos in the world and I am not saying that Edinburgh Zoo doesn't have some good exhibits, but I think given that Edinburgh has such a high reputation it should surely realise that for the above mentioned animals this cannot be acceptable to be allowing animals to suffer in such a way in this day and age.

 

[Maguari]

The Leopard: I saw very obvious signs of distress and anxiety. The leopard paced back and forward, back and forward constantly and had a glazed look in its eyes. Even my nephew said he thought it looked unhappy and offered it his teddy against the glass to play with. I said not to do that but the leopard just glanced sideways and continued to pace. A woman next to me said she comes to the zoo regularly and it always does that. I was shocked. I since looked online for info and see that youtube has a number of videos with the leopard doing just that. Surely this should not be allowed to continue? Shouldn't the zoo take action to move the animal somewhere larger or more suitable? I can't get the thought out of my mind that it is going stir crazy pacing on a daily basis.

Pacing in big cats is, in some ways, a normal behaviour - just in the wild they would be doing it across miles as they patrolled their territory (large territories need to be maintained in the wild to provide food). Most zoos try to provide enrichment to reduce this behaviour. It's worth bearing in mind with any highly repetitive (stereotyped) behaviour that it was not necessarily acquired at the current zoo, but could reflect a previous home. I don't know the history of the cat in question so cannot say if that is the case here.

The Sea Lion:
My god I have never felt so sorry for an animal. On it's own swimming around and around in never ending circles in that black oily looking filthy water. Can this be good welfare? I was shocked to see this.

Arrangements are in place for this animal to be moved on to another zoo.

A little Pygmy Hedgehog in a floor level glass tank in Brilliant Birds entrance - This little thing I felt really sorry for, all curled up asleep against the glass, the tank is TINY and very dark, and then even worse, I was shocked to notice that the plants inside are Plastic!!!. This was pretty awful and I felt I wanted to rescue it!

I can't comment on size as it was new since I was last there, but hedgehogs are nocturnal/crespuscular as a rule, so are unlikely to be bothered by a lack of light. I don't understand the problem with plastic plants; they are more hygienic than live plants and in a smaller exhibit may be more practical (indeed, if there's any reason to dislike them it's that they're ugly as sin, but that isn't a problem for the hedgehog!).

Raven Enclosure:
I first spotted this when I heard what I recognized to be a distress signal from a raven - I live next to a forest in Perthshire and have rescued a few who have been trapped in fencing and also two that came down my chimney before I put a chimney guard up. I saw a wire enclosure and saw a raven that looked like it was trying to unravel a piece of wire in the fence. I watched for a few minutes as it called and tried to twist this and thought the poor thing had got itself trapped inside an enclosure and was about to report it to a member of staff. Then I saw that it was in fact a Raven Enclosure! I was again saddened to see that these highly intelligent birds were behind wire and this particular one was trying it's best to figure out how to open the wires and making distressed sounds that I fully recognize as such.

I don't quite follow this - you seem to have no such problem with the chimps (of broadly similar intelligence) - the only reason the chimps don't have a fully-enclosed exhibit and the ravens do is for the obvious reason that ravens fly. I wouldn't want to comment on whether the bird was distressed without having seen it as I'm no expert - but I've seen Edinburgh's ravens previously and they were totally relaxed so this is not a continuous problem - maybe there was a (perceived) predator near?

At that point I had to leave the Zoo and have made a concerted decision never to return.
I am not a complainer or animal activist or against Zoos (although feel I could well be now after what I saw). I know there are much worse zoos in the world and I am not saying that Edinburgh Zoo doesn't have some good exhibits, but I think given that Edinburgh has such a high reputation it should surely realise that for the above mentioned animals this cannot be acceptable to be allowing animals to suffer in such a way in this day and age.

I am amazed and saddened that it is once again Edinburgh getting stick - there are UK zoos with much bigger problems but for some reason Edinburgh always seem to attract the criticisms. (This is not directed at you personally - just a general observation!) Possible exception of the sea lion aside, I don't think there is any cause for concern at Edinburgh.

 

[Lesley4444]

The amur leopards are only meant to be there temporarily... they are waiting for a enclosure to be build at the HWP and are being moved there... tho i have seen the female pacing.. the male i have not... she seemed very content and happy the last time i visited.

The chimps being bald is not fleas or a skin condition... part of there social structure involves grooming one another... sometimes over grooming causes baldness like what you see and also what you see if you watch monkey world for example.

The sealion if you have read recent posts in the forum is soon to be moved due to the filtration system.

The pandas enclosure is infact much bigger than the ones that the pandas have came from. Both appear very settled the three times i have visited and the colic that the male is suffering from has nothing to do with his enclosure.

Pygmy hedghogs are nocturnal... infact putting it into a larger enclosure would probably stress it out... the fact is was curled up in a ball during the day is normal. I personally would love them to build a nocturnal house.

I can honestly say i have never seen the raven distressed in anyway either.

Sorry for the quick reply as just heading for bed... hope i have answered some of your questions

 

[Jordan-Jaguar97]

I've got to agree with Maguari there, Edinburgh is certainly one of the better zoo's in the country.

If you compared Edinburgh with South Lakes wild Animal park, you will see the quality of Edinburgh. Edinburgh has the best collection of rare unusual species (Aardwolf, sun bear, koala, giant pandas) I have seen in the UK. South Lakes used to house Pygmy hippos and mandrills together, often with either species being bullied by the other. Edinburgh houses Asian lions although South Lakes house generic lions (One hybrid too) but the difference in the enclosure and the breeding rate is very different.

The leopard you saw was either Skodje or Zane, it's no so a problem but cats among other species in the wild generally have a bigger patch of ground (Not criticizing the enclosure of course) the usually have a large territory with prey and often other leopards on the edge or males/females sharing their terrority.

The only point I agree with you on is the state of the current sea lion enclosure and as has been mentioned the remaining male Patagonian sea lion is due to leave within the next few months, it'll be interesting to see what takes up the enclosure with seals and sea lions being in that enclosure for the last 99 years.

They couldn't really have done anything else regarding the panda enclosure, it's the old gorilla area but saying that they did spend a lot on the enclosure to make it as nice as they could for the pandas.

I've seen the Budongo trail at Edinburgh and I was very impressed, the chimps at Edinburgh looked completely fine to me, they look very much similar to the group at Chester.

I'm extremely shocked as to why you had to leave the zoo! Having visited in December on my first ever visit, I thought it was the best collection in the UK with Chester in second (Only due to many species/animals in off-show areas).

 

[jwer]

Can I just point out that the quality of a zoo doesn't improve if people keep shouting "there are far worse zoos in the UK". It bothers me that it's being mentioned as a defence.

Other then that, i doubt there is reason for concerns with the aforementioned "problems", as the others stated.

 

[Ginnieb]

I can understand that Edinburgh Zoo may be better than a lot of others Zoos, and said so in my post but that doesn't take away from the fact that an individual animal that appears to be stressed or unhappy needs to be addressed. The leopard to me is without doubt stressed. I have since looked for some information on the study of big cats pacing and it seems they roam in the wild and may pace temporarily for a minute or so in a area they wish to mark as territory, but don't pace they same way they do as when in a confined area. It was said 'Pacing is an indication of lack of stimulation. A recent doctoral study found that larger animals, which have a larger home range in the wild, are particularly prone to pacing in captivity, a behavior known as cage stereotypy'. I would be really happy to see the leopard somewhere it had more space to roam and a viewpoint where it could see more than just a sea of people and noisy kids bang on the glass window every day.

In Edinburgh you can see it in the eyes. The leopard had a glazed look about it, a distant look, it wasn't being 'aware of it's surroundings'. To me it was fairly obvious. There is nothing natural if an animal is endlessly pacing.

Re the Chimps, I thought this an interesting piece of writing on chimps overgrooming and their reasons for doing so: http://www.chimpsanctuarynw.org/blog/2011/07/overgrooming/

However, I don't know enough about chimps though to comment with confidence which is why I asked the question 'do they moult'? I just hadn't seen chimps in other places that are in captivity with this type of hair loss and they didn't look healthy but can completely accept that this may be for absolutely normal reasons and wished to know if anyone knew this to be the case in which case I would have no cause for concern.

Re the pygmy hedgehog, I am aware they are nocturnal and curled up asleep would be the norm (although I would have thought perhaps he would have chosen somewhere dark inside rather than against the glass) but the plastic plants really didn't do it for me I'm afraid, hygenic or not. If I was keeping one as a pet at home as many do (I wouldn't but I know they sell them and many people do enjoy them as pets) I would not keep it in an enclosure with plastic plants, I just feel this is wrong, unnatural and would be concerned in case it was ingested. Again reading up on pygmy hedgehogs they say they need plenty of stimulation and even toys (preferably natural) to keep them occupied. Being nocturnal and solo I don't see how they can be given much attention at the Zoo when it is closed and staff have gone home and there really wasn't much of anything in the small tank.

I just read that the Ravens have been with the zoo for a few years now and one was born in captivity but the other was from the wild. I am sure by now even the wild raven is used to being in captivity and they do have a decent sized enclosure but I do know what I saw and that bird wanted to get out! It maybe doesn't try all the time and it has to stop to eat, drink, be sociable with the other raven I'm sure but it was displaying distress sounds when I saw it. Knowing a reasonable amount about birds and their behaviour if a predator had been around or in the area it would take cover rather than be clinging to the fence trying to unravel the wire but I appreciate your thoughts on why it may have been displaying this behaviour.

Maguari, re not following why I was saying "I don't quite follow this - you seem to have no such problem with the chimps (of broadly similar intelligence) - the only reason the chimps don't have a fully-enclosed exhibit and the ravens do is for the obvious reason that ravens fly".
I'm not sure I follow you; the problems I thought the chimps had are completely different to that of my views on the Ravens and I never compared enclosures. Of course ravens fly and if being contained would need a covered enclosure. My feeling is that I don't think ravens should be kept in captivity at all. Why should they be in a zoo when they can be still seen just as easily in the wild by all in this country? I didn't enjoy seeing this raven distressed. If truth be told, ideally I'd like to see chimps in the wild too than in a zoo.

I am really glad to know the Zoo are finding a new home for the seal, I hope it is happier where it ends up.

I really didn't set out to criticise Edinburgh Zoo. That is the zoo I visited, these are the animals I saw that I felt didn't look as though their needs as individuals were catered for. I wanted to voice my concerns and ask for views. I very much appreciate views returned. What I wouldn't want to see though is defending of the zoo for the sake of it, these animals live, eat and sleep every day and night whilst we go about our own lives without restriction. The least the animals should expect is respect and care when something is not right.

 

[Ginnieb]

Can I just point out that the quality of a zoo doesn't improve if people keep shouting "there are far worse zoos in the UK". It bothers me that it's being mentioned as a defence.

Other then that, i doubt there is reason for concerns with the aforementioned "problems", as the others stated.

I agree totally with your first paragraph.

Not with the second though, doubting is not good enough when an animal as an individual is affected. As I said I don't usually complain but I didn't like what I saw.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I would be really happy to see the leopard somewhere it had more space to roam and a viewpoint where it could see more than just a sea of people and noisy kids bang on the glass window every day.

They do, in point of fact, have offshow areas above and behind the enclosure. And in my observation, that particular leopard generally starts to pace when people start banging on the glass to wake it up when it is asleep, as it often is, under the window where the glass focuses the sunlight

The Sea Lion:
My god I have never felt so sorry for an animal. On it's own swimming around and around in never ending circles in that black oily looking filthy water. Can this be good welfare? I was shocked to see this.

Actually, you can quite often see it on land - but sealions swim, after all, and I daresay you'd have complained if it had just sat still on land and hadn't been swimming!
As for it being alone, up until a few months ago it wasn't - it shared an enclosure with two much older females who both passed away recently. Due to problems with the filtration systems of the enclosure, it will shortly be moving to a collection in Poland.

Re the pygmy hedgehog, I am aware they are nocturnal and curled up asleep would be the norm (although I would have thought perhaps he would have chosen somewhere dark inside rather than against the glass) but the plastic plants really didn't do it for me I'm afraid, hygenic or not. If I was keeping one as a pet at home as many do (I wouldn't but I know they sell them and many people do enjoy them as pets) I would not keep it in an enclosure with plastic plants, I just feel this is wrong, unnatural and would be concerned in case it was ingested. Again reading up on pygmy hedgehogs they say they need plenty of stimulation and even toys (preferably natural) to keep them occupied. Being nocturnal and solo I don't see how they can be given much attention at the Zoo when it is closed and staff have gone home and there really wasn't much of anything in the small tank.

It may further aid your understanding to have it pointed out you made two errors of observation - they weren't plastic plants, and it wasn't a hedgehog! It was one of these - [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesser_Hedgehog_Tenrec]Lesser Hedgehog Tenrec - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
You will note this link mentions the following: "It spends its daytime hours resting under a log or in a hollow tree, although trees are widely scattered in its native habitat. In hot weather, it sleeps with its body extended but otherwise lies in a curled position. It hibernates in the winter time."
In any case, this renders your assumptions about needing to give it toys and lots of attention moot, as it isn't the species you were reading up on

I just read that the Ravens have been with the zoo for a few years now and one was born in captivity but the other was from the wild. I am sure by now even the wild raven is used to being in captivity and they do have a decent sized enclosure but I do know what I saw and that bird wanted to get out!.......Maguari, re not following why I was saying "I don't quite follow this - you seem to have no such problem with the chimps (of broadly similar intelligence) - the only reason the chimps don't have a fully-enclosed exhibit and the ravens do is for the obvious reason that ravens fly".
I'm not sure I follow you; the problems I thought the chimps had are completely different to that of my views on the Ravens and I never compared enclosures. Of course ravens fly and if being contained would need a covered enclosure. My feeling is that I don't think ravens should be kept in captivity at all. Why should they be in a zoo when they can be still seen just as easily in the wild by all in this country? I didn't enjoy seeing this raven distressed. If truth be told, ideally I'd like to see chimps in the wild too than in a zoo.

I rather suspect the point Maguari was making is that your main objection to the raven enclosure was that it was an intelligent animal and shouldn't be in captivity, but you didn't raise the same concern for the chimps. And I think you may be guilty of anthropomorphication in assuming it was distressed purely because it "sounded" sad to you.

 

[Brum]

They do, in point of fact, have offshow areas above and behind the enclosure. And in my observation, that particular leopard generally starts to pace when people start banging on the glass to wake it up when it is asleep, as it often is, under the window where the glass focuses the sunlight



Actually, you can quite often see it on land - but sealions swim, after all, and I daresay you'd have complained if it had just sat still on land and hadn't been swimming!
As for it being alone, up until a few months ago it wasn't - it shared an enclosure with two much older females who both passed away recently. Due to problems with the filtration systems of the enclosure, it will shortly be moving to a collection in Poland.



It may further aid your understanding to have it pointed out you made two errors of observation - they weren't plastic plants, and it wasn't a hedgehog! It was one of these - Lesser Hedgehog Tenrec - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You will note this link mentions the following: "It spends its daytime hours resting under a log or in a hollow tree, although trees are widely scattered in its native habitat. In hot weather, it sleeps with its body extended but otherwise lies in a curled position. It hibernates in the winter time."
In any case, this renders your assumptions about needing to give it toys and lots of attention moot, as it isn't the species you were reading up on




I rather suspect the point Maguari was making is that your main objection to the raven enclosure was that it was an intelligent animal and shouldn't be in captivity, but you didn't raise the same concern for the chimps. And I think you may be guilty of anthropomorphication in assuming it was distressed purely because it "sounded" sad to you.

I wasn't going to comment but i feel the need to say "Well said"!
The complaints made are pretty minor and the only one that holds weight is the sea lion pool which as we've all read, (or should've done before bringing it up! ) is soon to be emptied. Don't want to come accross as having a go or anything but it seems odd that you joined a zoo based sight to have a go at one of the great institutions of the zoological world...

 

[OrangePerson]

Don't wat to come accross as having a go or anything but it seems odd that you joined a zoo based sight to have a go at one of the great institutions of the zoological world...

Raising concerns is not necessarily 'having a go' and why not come on here. It's always good for fanatics to have their assumptions challenged.

However Ginnieb chimps don't 'have fleas' in general although you hear it said about once every minute if you hang about near a chimp enclosure. There may be some degree of over-grooming at Edinburgh due to them having put two groups together fairly recently. The chimp accommodation is pretty good.

 

[Brum]

Raising concerns is not necessarily 'having a go' and why not come on here. It's always good for fanatics to have their assumptions challenged.

The whole first post just smacks of trouble making to me, just my opinion but it's just a very odd first post. I'm not implying that people shouldn't come on here to be challenged but saying something like this is just asking for controversey. I mean what's wrong with tripadvisor or similar, surely that'd be a more appropriate forum to slag off a zoo?

Hi, I'm new to the forum and found it as I searched the web for comments on Edinburgh Zoo relating to the welfare of some animals there.
I went to the Zoo for the first time in over ten years with my little nephew as he wanted to see the pandas. I was there last week and was enjoying watching the African Painted Dogs and then on to see the Penguins. Next was the Pandas. I saw one, asleep and as told the other was sleeping indoors. I asked a question of the keeper, 'was this enclosure bigger than that they had just left in China (as to me it seemed small for a Panda)? I was told much bigger and better. I have since discovered by looking at video footage of the Pandas in China they had much larger and what appear to be more natural looking enclosures. The press today now stated that one of the Pandas has colic and is unwell and not been out for a few days. I thought the Edinburgh Zoo Panda enclosure looked very unnatural and cramped compared to what they had in China.

I honestly didn't go to the Zoo to pick up on problems but instead found they were so blatant and obvious I couldn't ignore what I saw and felt very sad for the animals involved. I would appreciate what others think of what I saw and your comments please.

The Leopard: I saw very obvious signs of distress and anxiety. The leopard paced back and forward, back and forward constantly and had a glazed look in its eyes. Even my nephew said he thought it looked unhappy and offered it his teddy against the glass to play with. I said not to do that but the leopard just glanced sideways and continued to pace. A woman next to me said she comes to the zoo regularly and it always does that. I was shocked. I since looked online for info and see that youtube has a number of videos with the leopard doing just that. Surely this should not be allowed to continue? Shouldn't the zoo take action to move the animal somewhere larger or more suitable? I can't get the thought out of my mind that it is going stir crazy pacing on a daily basis.
Chimps in the Budongo Trail: Many of the chimps seem to have mange or some sort of skin disease? The have bald patches and were constantly scratching. I know chimps have fleas but surely not to the point where they have great bald patches on their backs and bodies? Can anyone explain if this is normal - perhaps they go through a moult?
The Sea Lion:
My god I have never felt so sorry for an animal. On it's own swimming around and around in never ending circles in that black oily looking filthy water. Can this be good welfare? I was shocked to see this.
A little Pygmy Hedgehog in a floor level glass tank in Brilliant Birds entrance - This little thing I felt really sorry for, all curled up asleep against the glass, the tank is TINY and very dark, and then even worse, I was shocked to notice that the plants inside are Plastic!!!. This was pretty awful and I felt I wanted to rescue it!
Raven Enclosure:
I first spotted this when I heard what I recognized to be a distress signal from a raven - I live next to a forest in Perthshire and have rescued a few who have been trapped in fencing and also two that came down my chimney before I put a chimney guard up. I saw a wire enclosure and saw a raven that looked like it was trying to unravel a piece of wire in the fence. I watched for a few minutes as it called and tried to twist this and thought the poor thing had got itself trapped inside an enclosure and was about to report it to a member of staff. Then I saw that it was in fact a Raven Enclosure! I was again saddened to see that these highly intelligent birds were behind wire and this particular one was trying it's best to figure out how to open the wires and making distressed sounds that I fully recognize as such.
At that point I had to leave the Zoo and have made a concerted decision never to return.
I am not a complainer or animal activist or against Zoos (although feel I could well be now after what I saw). I know there are much worse zoos in the world and I am not saying that Edinburgh Zoo doesn't have some good exhibits, but I think given that Edinburgh has such a high reputation it should surely realise that for the above mentioned animals this cannot be acceptable to be allowing animals to suffer in such a way in this day and age.

See my point?

 

[Chlidonias]

The whole first post just smacks of trouble making to me, just my opinion but it's just a very odd first post. I'm not implying that people shouldn't come on here to be challenged but saying something like this is just asking for controversey. I mean what's wrong with tripadvisor or similar, surely that'd be a more appropriate forum to slag off a zoo?

I can't agree with you at all really. She wasn't slagging off the zoo at all as far as my interpretation goes, she was asking questions about a few specific animals or enclosures that distressed her. How would posting on tripadvisor help her at all? Surely the logical place to ask her questions is, oh I don't know, a zoo forum? And I don't really see how its an "odd" first post - what she saw at this zoo is obviously all she wanted answers about.

They all seemed reasonable enough questions to me. Maybe the panda enclosure does look small (I don't know personally, because I have never been), and if she found pictures of the large natural-looking enclosures at Wolong then its a fair enough assumption that in China pandas are kept like that. A continuously pacing leopard - why is it "slagging off the zoo" to question that? There are all sorts of reasons big cats pace in captivity but it can be distressing to watch. Bald spots on chimps - that's not natural-looking is it? The sealion - everyone here seems agreed its conditions of living are not good, but the poster obviously hasn't been reading through the forums to know it is being moved, because she just joined. The plastic plants in the hedgehog/tenrec cage, well it doesn't bother me and it probably doesn't bother the animal, but it is an aesthetic thing for her I guess, and I think her greater concern was probably the "tiny" cage. The raven issue however seems to be largely because she thinks ravens shouldn't be kept in captivity.

Basically, all these questions are exactly the sorts of things that get brought up by regular posters (just not ususally all in one lump sum).

Just my thoughts.

 

[TriGB]

Chilidonias - Thank you, that was exactly how I was going to write my response. We are zoo people, want them to succeed and do well and enjoy visiting them. I sometimes feel that we (myself included) over-protect the zoological collections we visit and are fondest of the most. It is OK to raise concerns and educate/re-educate others. We often have the same justifications/reasoning for some 'behaviours' that do not reflect well upon the zoo world. I have said this many times before, but zoos need to explain these factors to the general public i.e. explain the pacing, the baldness and the small glass vivariums with plastic plants......we know because we ask, get inside info, talk to keepers etc - but I'm saddened when thousands of people leave our zoos every year without knowing 'why'.
Let's stop being so defensive and take a fresh look at how the general 'once a year' public actually view our zoos!

 

[Ginnieb]

Raising concerns is not necessarily 'having a go' and why not come on here. It's always good for fanatics to have their assumptions challenged.

However Ginnieb chimps don't 'have fleas' in general although you hear it said about once every minute if you hang about near a chimp enclosure. There may be some degree of over-grooming at Edinburgh due to them having put two groups together fairly recently. The chimp accommodation is pretty good.

'Fanatic'? For asking some questions? Dear me.

And then you go onto answer the question informatively by saying two groups of monkeys were recently put together. That would have done thank you.

 

[Mr T]

'Fanatic'? For asking some questions? Dear me.

And then you go onto answer the question informatively by saying two groups of monkeys were recently put together. That would have done thank you.

Monkeys??? Correct me if I am wrong but aren't chimps apes?

 

[Ginnieb]

They do, in point of fact, have offshow areas above and behind the enclosure. And in my observation, that particular leopard generally starts to pace when people start banging on the glass to wake it up when it is asleep, as it often is, under the window where the glass focuses the sunlight

There was no one around the other day, it was quiet, no children banging on glass that day, just one other lady who said she has seen the leopard pace every time she had been and she visits often. (I referred to the you tube video that shows the leopard pacing when chilren were banging on the glass).

Actually, you can quite often see it on land - but sealions swim, after all, and I daresay you'd have complained if it had just sat still on land and hadn't been swimming!

Now that is just stupid really, isn't it?

As for it being alone, up until a few months ago it wasn't - it shared an enclosure with two much older females who both passed away recently. Due to problems with the filtration systems of the enclosure, it will shortly be moving to a collection in Poland.

Yes, well before I posted I wasn't aware of the pending move so this forum has done what I hoped and answered my initial question. And I'm glad for the animal.


It may further aid your understanding to have it pointed out you made two errors of observation - they weren't plastic plants, and it wasn't a hedgehog! It was one of these - Lesser Hedgehog Tenrec - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You will note this link mentions the following: "It spends its daytime hours resting under a log or in a hollow tree, although trees are widely scattered in its native habitat. In hot weather, it sleeps with its body extended but otherwise lies in a curled position. It hibernates in the winter time."
In any case, this renders your assumptions about needing to give it toys and lots of attention moot, as it isn't the species you were reading up on

The plant was plastic and as for the type of hedgehog, I still feel regardless of the named species (although the exhibit did say Pygmy Hedgehog and not the name you mention ) that enclosure is really far too small for any creature to roam around in when awake.


I rather suspect the point Maguari was making is that your main objection to the raven enclosure was that it was an intelligent animal and shouldn't be in captivity, but you didn't raise the same concern for the chimps. And I think you may be guilty of anthropomorphication in assuming it was distressed purely because it "sounded" sad to you.

Again a wrong assumption. As I said I do know about birds, have rescued a few ravens and recognize a distress signal from these birds. I wonder if any of us could tell if a bird sounded sad?!!!

I'm beginning to think this forum is for people who either work in zoos or
think animals should be in zoos regardless of whether the species is endangered or not and I have obviously wrongly assumed this was really the main reason for zoos to exist (in the UK anyhow) for reasons of conservation. I am rapidly becoming a non-fan of zoos.

 

[TriGB]

That was a wee bit childish Mr T, or your a real sad ' anorak caped zoo-geek'? Let's embrace people who fairly challenge the establishments we cherish so much, pass on our accrued knowledge and spread the word that good zoos are worth supporting whilst questioning those that have to improve. 'Anal' responses like that do not help us!

 

[Ginnieb]

Monkeys??? Correct me if I am wrong but aren't chimps apes?

My mistake

(I'm not a primate expert - hence my initial question re the state of their coats)

 

[TriGB]

Don't worry about it Ginnieb - you can forward your questions to me by way of personal messages if you feel you do not want any more childish responses, but please don't give up too soon, there are some really good people on this forum, people who are level-headed and very knowledgable and helpful. Some, unfortunately, cannot handle criticism and facing up to the fact that to some, our zoos (or parts of them) are still not 21st century!

 

[Yassa]

I think with "fanatics", he meant the zoo chat members = zoo fanatics. Not you.

Some more points:
Wolong keeps around (or even more) then 100 pandas. They have some really nice habitats, but with around 100 solitary animals, you can imagine that the vast majority of their pandas do not live in those. They are very sucessful at breeding, but the Chinese use some pretty questionable methods to archieve that - the cubs are taken away from their mothers when they are just a few months old so that the mother gets into heat again soon and has cubs every year, while in the wild, she wuld nurse her cub for at least 1,5 years and have cubs only every 2 years. Western zoos do not use this technique. Chances are high that the 2 pandas in Edinburgh have a) a better, much more stimulating encloure on a permanent basis and b) much more natural living conditions.

Re the chimps - about half of the group is from a dutch park (Beekse Bergen), and that dutch park got them from a labratory. They had never seen the sky or grass before coming to Beekse Bergen. Some animals were almost bald from overgrooming (due to boredom and stress in the labratory), but it got much better at Beekse Bergen in a more natural environment. It`s totally possible that the chimps you saw with bad hair are some of those.
By the way, if chimps have fleas and are left untreated, you have reasons to go to the police and report animal cruelty.

The leopard - I agree that the leopard cages are not optimal, and apparently they are on their way to a better enclosure soon. However, I tink you are reading way too much into the animal`s eyes. It is NOT that easy to read into an animal`s eyes as a lot of people think. It would be really easy if someone who doesn`t know the individual animal can just look into its eyes and immediately know all about its state of mind. Acessing a captive animal`s wellbeing is much more complicated then that. I agree that seeing a pacing leopard is not nice, but it does not always mean that it is stressed in that moment, or that feeling terrible. And it is also possible that the animal started pacing in another zoo. Once started, it`s almost impossible to get it to stop, even in much better living conditions, for example when the animal is waiting for feeding time. You can just reduce the amount of time it`s doing it once this is a habit.