Toronto Zoo Toronto Zoo Future Developments 2012

Meaghan Edwards said:
There was a study done in Sweden that pointed to the contrary. 500+ trunk washes showed up negative on TB positive elephants.
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It seems like you don`t understand the issues around diagnosing TB, like the keeper who wrote the excerpt above. Please read what the AZA experts have to say on this matter, in the links I provided above.
It is correct that trunk washs can come back negative after an elephant catched TB. That`s the really tricky thing with this disease. BUT that doesn`t mean the new blood tests, Stat-Pak and MAPIA, are foolproof. They are a lot more sensitive because they react to antibodys. That means they will also give a positive result when the elephants has been cured of TB or has just been exposed without getting sick. That is why these tests are considered (by AZA experts!!!) as screening tests that need to be followed up by more and frequent trunk washs to make a diagnosis. The document above describes the recent case of an elephant at the Springfield Zoo which has a reactive Stat-Pak test and was consequently treated for TB. Then she died and the necropsy showed NO SIGN of TB.
 
ellespot said:
It amazes me how many people simply chose to ignore the facts about this just because they really like PAWS. There is nothing wrong with the National Elephant Centre and if you are a fan of the Toronto Zoo you should be supporting their bold move to protect these elephants from TB. I have literally 150 pages of documents and research to support my personal stance and claims.
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It`s funny because I would say it`s you who ignores the facts. By the way, it`s not that I like PAWS, I really like elephants. And I know for a fact that more then one elephant keeper from AZA zoos visited PAWS and was blown away by their facilities. I also know for a fact that PAWS devoloped a great working relationship with a number of ex-keepers of zoo elephants sent to them which came to visit and help caring for their ex-charges more then once. I also know that PAWS frequently consults with staff from (AZA accreddited) Oakland zoo and recently both organisations hosted a conference together. I also know that PAWS employs elephants experts that are recognised as experts by AZA zoos like Alan Roocroft.

There are not even TB positive elephants on PAWS ground!! The sanctuary in Tennessee, in contrary, has more then one elephant who is confirmed to be TB positive (kept in quarantine certainly), but that wasn`t even an issue when (AZA accredited) Philadelphia Zoo sent their last asian elephant to them in 2007 (at that time, the TB elephants were already on grounds). Needless to say that the Philadelphia Zoo didn`t loose AZA accreditation. Neither did the San Francisco Zoo, the LA Zoo nor the Detroit Zoo when they sent their elephants to PAWS.
Ringling has 50+ elephants that have all been exposed to TB since more then one decade, many testing positive - not just Stat-Pak reactive, but full-blown trunk wash positive. Still these elephants are housed on grounds with the breeding and travelling herd. The exposed elephants are allowed to travel and come into close proximity of children. Ringling elephants are even (as recently as 2011!) allowed to join AZA zoos and being kept together with elephants owned by AZA zoos (Little Rock is the most recent example). AZA zoos like St. Louis and Albuquerque have elephants in their breeding herds that have recently been confirmed as being TB infected (not just exposed, but trunk wash positive). Yet these zoos continue to breed, the TB elephants are not seperated from the other elephants and zoo visitors are allowed to see them. I bet when in a couple of years breeding requires that elephants from these herds are moved to other zoos or the Elephant Center, it won`t be an issue as long as the elephant consistently tested trunk wash negative.

I don`t know if anything will be wrong with the Elephant Center. I can`t know because it doesn`t exist yet. Ground was just broken and from the pictures it didn`t look as if serious construction has even started. The Elephant Center has a long history of delay after delay. It will be a miracle if it really is ready this fall. And by the way, what do you expect to happen? What do you think how long it will take until the Center will take the first elephant that has been exposed to TB, like some Asian elephants at PAWS? There are many dozends of elephants in the US that have been exposed to TB.

I don`t know how anyone cannot see the double standard here. I am sure there are caring people among those who are concerned and mean well, but I really don`t get it and I hope very much the City Council sticks to its decision.
 
City council is not fit to make animal decisions. The last time politicians made decisions instead of consulting with experts here in Ontario, thousands of dogs died because of their ignorance. So, lets leave animal decisions to the experts! ZooCheck, with whom one councilor has a connectoin with, also needs to back off. Having ZooCheck involved is a conflict of interest. All the more, I think Toronto Zoo should privatize. No interference from ill informed city council with connections to animal rights groups.

PAWS indeed does have TB, and active or not, TB is still TB. Right from the PAWS vet herself:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/1Quh...K7bmKfu4JlfBiBWz_559ovMnpqEQgdsCsc/edit?pli=1
 
Meaghan Edwards said:
City council is not fit to make animal decisions. The last time politicians made decisions instead of consulting with experts here in Ontario, thousands of dogs died because of their ignorance.

PAWS indeed does have TB, and active or not, TB is still TB. Right from the PAWS vet herself:
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The City Council made a decision after consulting with experts from all sides. That is what is called an informed decision. It just *happens* that the zoo`s side wasn`t very convincing..

The document you provide confirms exactly what I stated, that elephants at PAWS tested Stat-Pak positive. Which is NOT a TB diagnosis. Please educate yourself on this matter, because it seems that not just AR people can be ignorant...
 
kknudsen said:
any word on weather our rhino is pregnant?
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Hear, hear ... could do with a little info there! :D

I hope she is .., despite her firstborn being stillborn it was still a very hopeful event for the future.
(I do hope they do not let the City Council interfere in this zoo management decision) :roll eyes:


Any other noteworthy births or events going?

On a side note:
What about the planning stage for Eurasia? Where are we currently at?
 
I believe they are going to be trying for a baby rhino next year :)

The white lions are on display now and Eurasia is in plan construction! I have as of yet though to see the finalized layout of it, though.
 
The rhinos have not been introduced yet this year.

Eurasia was supposed to start construction in April, that has yet to happen, so I am not sure what is going on there.
 
What exactly in these documents shows that PAWS is not a good place for the Toronto elephants? There is nothing new in there. We already knew that Rebecca and Sabu had been diagnosed wih TB.

What I did not know, though, is that not just so many elephants from Ringling, but also asian elephant bull Hank (from Scott Riddle) are/were TB-infected (100% tb positive through trunk wash and genetic testing, unlike the elephants currently living at PAWS!). Hank was recently moved to Colombus Zoo, an AZA member, as future breeding bull, and he will be in constant, direct contact with the Colombus elephants, and elephants exposed to him will be moved out of the collection to other AZA collections. I REALLY do not get where the problem with PAWS is.
 
The problem with PAWS is simply, it is not the place to send the girls to; for retired circus eles with TB, yes. It doesn't fit the criteria in which the zoo was looking for. TB aside, the zoo was also looking for a dynamic herd setting (the weather is not the reason; many eles do fne in colder places, such as in Toledo, African Lion Safari in Cambridge, etc). Something they wouldn't get at PAWS as they would just be around other older animals.

As Canada is supposed to be a democratic country, it would only be fair for there to be a proper review of places to send the girls to, that would involve animal care staff who know the girls far better than anyone else, including ARist agenda driven politicians who haven't even been to the zoo.
 
Yassa said:
The City Council made a decision after consulting with experts from all sides. That is what is called an informed decision. It just *happens* that the zoo`s side wasn`t very convincing..

The document you provide confirms exactly what I stated, that elephants at PAWS tested Stat-Pak positive. Which is NOT a TB diagnosis. Please educate yourself on this matter, because it seems that not just AR people can be ignorant...
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still doesnt change the fact that PAWS lied about having TB at the sanctuary because they knew council had stated that no facility with TB, in any form would be considered. and PAWS themselves claimed STATPAK is the number one test then they recanted when STATPAK results made public didnt support their needs and went on to claim trunk wahs is the best test. Trunk washes have limitations. Furthermore trunk wash is considered the least effective method of testing for TB there are numerous studies that have been done to verify this. even elephantcare.org states this. And they are a group of elephant experts. I dont think anyone is IGNORANT and I resent the implication that you are supreme in your analysis. Those documents are just the beginning. If PAWS felt that there was no real TB issue at the sanctuary then why then were they not honest about it in the first place? TB in elephants is a very complex disease, difficult to diagnose and difficult to treat. As you can see from those documents Sabus TB evolved into a new strain and Rebecca had several different strains some of which have never been logged in any TB database. We are only 15 years into the study of this disease in elephants and I dont consider PAWS to be the leading expert in M-TB especially when they are not even willing to be forthcoming about it in the first place, it had tobe dragged out of them, therefore we should not take the risk. We wouldnt take this risk with our pets or our loved ones, would you let your pet live in a kennel 50 feet away from a kennel that might have parvo? Would you let your kids play in a playground just fifty feet away from a playground with kids infected with TB? No you would not take that risk so what then gives people the right to take that risk with these elephants to satisfy an ideology or the internal desire to "believe" in sanctuary as a higher moral standard for animal care?
 
Meaghan Edwards said:
TB aside, the zoo was also looking for a dynamic herd setting (the weather is not the reason; many eles do fne in colder places, such as in Toledo, African Lion Safari in Cambridge, etc). Something they wouldn't get at PAWS as they would just be around other older animals.
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You are wrong. 2 of the 3 African eles at PAWS, Maggie and Mara, are barely over 30.


Meaghan Edwards said:
As Canada is supposed to be a democratic country, it would only be fair for there to be a proper review of places to send the girls to, that would involve animal care staff who know the girls far better than anyone else, including ARist agenda driven politicians who haven't even been to the zoo.
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A democratic country means the decisions of the elected politicans are respected. The Toronto Zoo currently does the opposite. The zoo staff was given plenty of opportunity to present their side, they just weren`t convincing!
 
ellespot said:
still doesnt change the fact that PAWS lied about having TB at the sanctuary because they knew council had stated that no facility with TB, in any form would be considered. and PAWS themselves claimed STATPAK is the number one test then they recanted when STATPAK results made public didnt support their needs and went on to claim trunk wahs is the best test. Trunk washes have limitations. Furthermore trunk wash is considered the least effective method of testing for TB there are numerous studies that have been done to verify this. even elephantcare.org states this. And they are a group of elephant experts. I dont think anyone is IGNORANT and I resent the implication that you are supreme in your analysis. Those documents are just the beginning. If PAWS felt that there was no real TB issue at the sanctuary then why then were they not honest about it in the first place? TB in elephants is a very complex disease, difficult to diagnose and difficult to treat. As you can see from those documents Sabus TB evolved into a new strain and Rebecca had several different strains some of which have never been logged in any TB database. We are only 15 years into the study of this disease in elephants and I dont consider PAWS to be the leading expert in M-TB especially when they are not even willing to be forthcoming about it in the first place, it had tobe dragged out of them, therefore we should not take the risk. We wouldnt take this risk with our pets or our loved ones, would you let your pet live in a kennel 50 feet away from a kennel that might have parvo? Would you let your kids play in a playground just fifty feet away from a playground with kids infected with TB? No you would not take that risk so what then gives people the right to take that risk with these elephants to satisfy an ideology or the internal desire to "believe" in sanctuary as a higher moral standard for animal care?
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@ ellespot: Since I was not involved with any negotiations, I have no knowledge what PAWS said and when and what not. Given that you claim the eles currently living at PAWS "have TB" and that there is no such thing as "a little TB", I see that there is a LOT of room for misunderstandings. Again, regarding AZA`s experts, Stat-Pak is not a TB diagnosis and when PAWS says their elephants don`t have TB, that is correct and not a lie.

And no, I do not consider it a risk to send elephants to a facility which also houses elephants that had been in contact with TB. Surely not as long as they are housed seperately. Which is exactly what many AZA people seem to think too, or why do many AZA zoos house elephants that have tested TB positive or were exposed to TB directly with healthy elephants? Why do AZA zoos accept elephants from Ringling as recently as 2011, even though all Ringing elephants have been exposed to multiple cases of TB in the last 2 decades? This is where Sabu and Rebecca from PAWS picked up their TB, after all. In any other case, AZA people seem to think that the risk is manageable (which I agree with if you don`t let the elephants close to the public and don`t plan on moving them around any more for breeding). Just not in case of PAWS. And why do you trust any AZA facility to keep your elephants far away from TB exposed elephants, given that so so many elephants in AZA facilities have been exposed to TB?
I don`t get it.
 
By the way, I totally agree that TB is very difficult to diagnose and tricky to treat and a dangerous disease. I actually think it`s a huge problem that Ringling, with so many TB infected elephants on grounds and virtually all their elephants exposed to TB multiple times since decades, are still allowed to travel with them and give performances in front of children. I also see that this is a potentionally huge problem for zoos that are breeding elephants because they have to move at least the bulls around from time to time. However, it seems most individuals exposed to TB never get sick and even most of those that are infected never show any symptoms and don`t shred the bacteria. Which is probably why the AZA doesn`t regard it as such a serious problem when their members or Rigling are concerned.
 
Enough, this is getting ridiculous, we as visitors love the girls and as such want the best for them. So we don't want them to go to a place where we don't get the whole truth. And unless one of us is a keeper then I don't think we can have solid grounds for all of this medical talk. It is extremely complicated and difficult to understand. We all need to take a breath and look at both sides, I know many of us have, but some haven't and to be objective here you will need to.
 
since the zoo has on there website these animals being off exhibit due to construction of the new Eurasia: Amur tiger, Bactrian camel, Domestic Yak, Przewalski's horse, Snow leopard, Asiatic wild dog, Barbary ape, Barbary sheep, Chamois, European reindeer, Dromedary camel, Mouflon, red panda, West Caucasian tur. my question is does anyone know if any of these animals will not be on exhibit in 2013 when the pandas go on exhibit? and what animals will still be in the eurasia section? thks
 
I really wish I knew. From the plans that I saw some time ago (and can't find them now, darn it, and still can't find the newer plans), P. Horses still were in the plans. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that dholes will be included and maybe a new male could be sourced.
 
a couple of questions if you don't mind!

I only saw one hippo on exhibit and usually there are two. Is everything okay with the second hippo?

Any word of breeding efforts with the cheetahs?

Any idea how much Hudson weighs (thereabouts) now? He was off in a corner playing so I really couldn't get a good look.
 
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