I was wondering with all the recent controversy about SeaWorld due to Blackfish, what are everyone's opinions regarding cetacean captivity. Opponents of SeaWorld seem to believe that all whales and dolphins should be released to an ocean pen (which is theoretically impossible). How does cetacean captivity compare to elephant captivity as these are probably the two most controversial animals kept in zoos/aquariums today. I personally believe cetaceans and elephants can both be humanely kept in aquaria and zoos, but there is a lot about these animals in the media and the ethics of keeping them. I do believe though it is much easier to recreate an elephant's environment than a whale or dolphins. Elephant exhibits today resemble natural habitats with some truly excellent exhibits here in the US. Zoos are now designing exhibits to maximize forage time, an elephant's primary activity in the wild. With cetaceans though there seem to be a lot more limits. As hunters living in the ocean, their natural environment can be difficult to mimic, and the primary form of enrichment seems to be training. Just wondering everyone's opinion. Are the whale and dolphin exhibits in the US and around the world adequate, excellent, or do you think there is a lot of room for improvement?
Cetacean vs. Elephant Captivity
- Thread starter BlackRhino
- Start date
I think SeaWorld and other aquariums around the country which house cetaceans are on borrowed time. I really can not see whales and possibly even dolphins in captivity within the next 20 to 50 years. Opinions are changing not only from a general public point of view, but also from a professional standpoint. Within the last few years, there have been substantial, conclusive evidence showing the intelligence of cetaceans and how aquarium settings are not really fulfilling and stimulating such intelligent animals. The final question is, how do you phase out cetacean programs? I'm sure that question is being asked around the country for institutions housing whales and dolphins.
As for elephants, there have been tremendous strides to meet their social needs both in terms of exhibit size and quality as well as herd sizes over the past few years. Obviously every zoo is different and hopefully each institution which houses elephants can provide the largest, most diverse habitat possible. So, yes, I think elephants can be kept in zoos if they provide expansive exhibit space and meets the social needs of the animals.
As for elephants, there have been tremendous strides to meet their social needs both in terms of exhibit size and quality as well as herd sizes over the past few years. Obviously every zoo is different and hopefully each institution which houses elephants can provide the largest, most diverse habitat possible. So, yes, I think elephants can be kept in zoos if they provide expansive exhibit space and meets the social needs of the animals.
As for ocean pens: who says it is always impossible? One example:
Fjord&Bælt ~ oplev havets magi
Funny enough, nobody seems to keep in mind that the ocean isn't the only body of water containing cetacea.The example of the baiji and the drastic population declines in the other still existing freshwater species show how important thinking about these cetacea should be. And not just the ones in freshwater. While still quarreling about captive orcas and bottlenose dolphins, the vaquita will be gone soon.
"(...)there have been substantial, conclusive evidence showing the intelligence of cetaceans and how aquarium settings are not really fulfilling and stimulating such intelligent animals." The issue with such evidence is usually its source, mode of acquisition and its agenda. While the anti-dolphinaria lobby is all in favour of such statements, institutions keeping cetacea would tend to disagree.
Animal intelligence is an academic field of high debate and there have been many discussions about the alleged high intelligence of cetacea in comparison to other species (with pigeons outperforming dolphins in certain tests). If it comes to social needs and complexity, the husbandry of crows, rodents, cephalopods or bats (etc.) could also be challenged...
Fjord&Bælt ~ oplev havets magi
Funny enough, nobody seems to keep in mind that the ocean isn't the only body of water containing cetacea.The example of the baiji and the drastic population declines in the other still existing freshwater species show how important thinking about these cetacea should be. And not just the ones in freshwater. While still quarreling about captive orcas and bottlenose dolphins, the vaquita will be gone soon.
"(...)there have been substantial, conclusive evidence showing the intelligence of cetaceans and how aquarium settings are not really fulfilling and stimulating such intelligent animals." The issue with such evidence is usually its source, mode of acquisition and its agenda. While the anti-dolphinaria lobby is all in favour of such statements, institutions keeping cetacea would tend to disagree.
Animal intelligence is an academic field of high debate and there have been many discussions about the alleged high intelligence of cetacea in comparison to other species (with pigeons outperforming dolphins in certain tests). If it comes to social needs and complexity, the husbandry of crows, rodents, cephalopods or bats (etc.) could also be challenged...
Elephants in captivity is a positive thing as long as their needs are met in terms of the physical space of an exhibit as well as their social and emotional requirements. That means well-adjusted herds sustained on many acres of interesting space. In the past decade some fantastic environments have been built for elephants in many zoos across the world, and I've personally toured zoos such as Dallas, North Carolina and Nashville that all have terrific African elephant exhibits. There has been a surge in top-quality Asian elephant exhibits as well (National Zoo, Oklahoma City, Los Angeles, Oregon next year) and many U.S. zoos have phased out elephants and sent them to more warmer, southern climates. My home nation of Canada used to have almost 25 zoos with elephants and my prediction in the next 5-10 years is that there might only be a single establishment (African Lion Safari) in the world's second largest nation with elephants. They've all headed south for bigger, better, warmer zoo habitats.
I'm really torn on cetaceans in captivity and especially orcas as even the enormous SeaWorld pools are nowhere near as large as they should be to accommodate such intelligent, large animals. Other than SeaWorlds there are almost zero orcas in captivity in North America and that won't be changing any time soon. Beluga whales are another consideration, and since Georgia Aquarium had their request of capturing 18 wild belugas turned down a couple of years ago there does not seem to be a sustainable captive population of either belugas or orcas. The notion of getting animals to do tricks to entertain the public has been toned down, whether it is Vancouver Aquarium phasing out orcas more than 10 years ago, Baltimore Aquarium phasing out dolphin shows or even Calgary Zoo scrapping plans for an Arctic complex. Georgia Aquarium's $110 million Dolphinarium that was built a few years ago might well be the very last of a dying breed.
I'm really torn on cetaceans in captivity and especially orcas as even the enormous SeaWorld pools are nowhere near as large as they should be to accommodate such intelligent, large animals. Other than SeaWorlds there are almost zero orcas in captivity in North America and that won't be changing any time soon. Beluga whales are another consideration, and since Georgia Aquarium had their request of capturing 18 wild belugas turned down a couple of years ago there does not seem to be a sustainable captive population of either belugas or orcas. The notion of getting animals to do tricks to entertain the public has been toned down, whether it is Vancouver Aquarium phasing out orcas more than 10 years ago, Baltimore Aquarium phasing out dolphin shows or even Calgary Zoo scrapping plans for an Arctic complex. Georgia Aquarium's $110 million Dolphinarium that was built a few years ago might well be the very last of a dying breed.
I don't believe that current husbandry techniques and systems are adequate for the keeping cetaceans in captivity permanently, although I realise that on occasions there might be good reasons for doing so on a temporary basis. But I would not rule out the possibility of better accommodation and care becoming technically possible and economically viable in the future.
The similarity with elephants is simply that both groups are large, long-lived animals which live in large social groupings, so the problems are large in both cases. But we do understand the needs of elephants much better because they are easier to study and have been kept in some form of captivity for thousands of years. Housing, feeding and caring for a group of elephants is expensive, but within the means of many large zoos.
Alan
The similarity with elephants is simply that both groups are large, long-lived animals which live in large social groupings, so the problems are large in both cases. But we do understand the needs of elephants much better because they are easier to study and have been kept in some form of captivity for thousands of years. Housing, feeding and caring for a group of elephants is expensive, but within the means of many large zoos.
Alan
Actually, the population of Beluga in Canada is fairly well off. With over 40 individual Belugas at Marineland of Canada and 27 of those un-related wild animals, their population will not be disappearing any time soon. Additionally they are producing 3-5 calves a year and that number will only rise as more of their wild and captive bred animals become sexually mature.
Outside of Marineland though, the story is quite different. There are 8 distinct lines of male, of which only 4 have bred. Of the other 4, one animal is 43 years old and has never bred, and the other 3 are just coming up on sexual maturity. There are roughly 14 distinct lines of females, of those only 8 have bred. Of the other 6 some are older animals that have never bred or females just coming up on sexual maturity. Overall it take very close management and some good luck to ensure the captive population in the rest of north america will be around for more than a few generations. Additionally, only 1-2 calves are born on average per year in the states, and survival rates are not exactly stellar.
Elephants aren't cheap to keep care for, but it's very doable and there are some excellent enclosures. The social aspects are what needs most attention. Cows shouldn't be separated from their family unless absolutely necessary.
I also think any zoo that wants to keep elephants long-term needs to have facilities to care for bulls.
Cetaceans are much more complicated. At present I only feel confident in saying that animals smaller that bottle-noses can be adequately housed and cared for.
I don't know enough to make a judgement on belugas and blackfish. My gut says that nobody keeps them in anything better than adequate conditions at present.
I do think having captive facilities is important, without them very little can be done for stranded or otherwise distressed animals. In the UK we have a choice between re-floating them immediately and euthanasing them.
Back in 2006 when a bottlenose whale swam up the Thames it died of exhaustion and dehydration before people could get it to deeper water, if there had been a dolphinarium nearby then it might have been possible to rehabilitate it.
And if Morgan the Killer Whale had beached in the UK, she would probably be dead.
You also have to consider they importance these animals have as ambassadors. Would commercial whaling have ended if it wasn't for dolphinaria?
I also think any zoo that wants to keep elephants long-term needs to have facilities to care for bulls.
Cetaceans are much more complicated. At present I only feel confident in saying that animals smaller that bottle-noses can be adequately housed and cared for.
I don't know enough to make a judgement on belugas and blackfish. My gut says that nobody keeps them in anything better than adequate conditions at present.
I do think having captive facilities is important, without them very little can be done for stranded or otherwise distressed animals. In the UK we have a choice between re-floating them immediately and euthanasing them.
Back in 2006 when a bottlenose whale swam up the Thames it died of exhaustion and dehydration before people could get it to deeper water, if there had been a dolphinarium nearby then it might have been possible to rehabilitate it.
And if Morgan the Killer Whale had beached in the UK, she would probably be dead.
You also have to consider they importance these animals have as ambassadors. Would commercial whaling have ended if it wasn't for dolphinaria?
animaloverjake
Member
Cetaceans and Elephants are both animals with very high intelligence and sociability. And they both need the highest level of care when they are put in a captive situation if you are going to house such animals in a facility. Let's start with cetaceans, they are probably one of the most complex animals that live on earth today, they can swim up to 100 miles a day and they're sociability with others is amazing, they have distinct clicks, whistles and groans that can be heard among other individuals and they hunt using sonar to locate they're food. And if you put them in a facility such as an aquarium or a dolphinarium they cannot do all of those things that come naturally to them, it's millions of years of evolution at its finest that creates the dolphins and whales that we know today. So no, I don't think that people can ever replicate an environment that is even close to that of the vast open ocean or the complexity of there social groupings. And now elephants they are the largest living land animals today so it doesn't come any surprise that it's a huge challenge keeping them in captivity. Elephants are animals that roam across the continents of Africa and Asia, and they are animals that can walk up to 25 miles a day so they are animals made for moving and they have infrasound that can travel for miles to communicate with other elephants, and it can be quite difficult to replicate an environment for elephants, but it is possible though. You need a LOT of space for elephants possibly tens of acres to accommodate such creatures and a lot of stimulation to keep them active physically and mentally lastly you need a large herd for them so they can socialize with each other. So the conclusion I came to is that it is very well possible to keep elephants in zoos, you just need a big enough environment for them to roam about and enrichment and lots of food and water to keep them happy and healthy.
Could anyone please provide me with scientifically solid factual evidence supporting the all too often mentioned "they swim 100 (sometimes *hundreds* or *thousands*) miles a day" claim? Because I know that this claim dos not hold true for several monitored populations of bottlenose dolphins as well as other cetaceans.
As for "smaller than bottlenose" -actually, many smaller cetaceans, like porpoises, are more delicate to care for and do less well in captivity than the robust larger dolphins.
Bats have very diverse social systems and are very complex animals. Many use echolot to locate their food and communicate with all kinds of sounds (some even "sing"). Straw-colored flying foxes and other flying fox species travel vast distances over night and migrate. Still, nobody is demanding the highest level of care for them. Maybe because they're not smiling enough?
http://www.lancekingart.com/img/albino_bat.jpg
As for "smaller than bottlenose" -actually, many smaller cetaceans, like porpoises, are more delicate to care for and do less well in captivity than the robust larger dolphins.
Bats have very diverse social systems and are very complex animals. Many use echolot to locate their food and communicate with all kinds of sounds (some even "sing"). Straw-colored flying foxes and other flying fox species travel vast distances over night and migrate. Still, nobody is demanding the highest level of care for them. Maybe because they're not smiling enough?
http://www.lancekingart.com/img/albino_bat.jpg
I picked bottlenose as my upper limit because they seem to be the largest dolphins that do really well.
I agree with you about space though. Not all animals are constantly on the move at all times. Just because an animal could theoretically cross oceans doesn't mean they do.
I agree with you about space though. Not all animals are constantly on the move at all times. Just because an animal could theoretically cross oceans doesn't mean they do.
I think there is one huge difference between elephants and the catacea species kept in captivity. Elephants are herbivore and the catacea are carnivore. Hence it is relatively easy and straight forward to mimic natural feeding behaviour and occupy the animals with it over the whole day in elephants, while this is impossible in dolphins and orcas.
Elephants' needs can be met, however, it seems to me that their needs for foraging and the need to be outdoors can really only be best met in warmer climates. Keeping elephants in northern climates where they are indoors for days at a time does not seem humane to me. I also agree that elephant cows should not be separated unless it is under extreme circumstances.
As far as cetaceans like orcas and dolphins it does not seem to me that these animals can be kept humanely in captivity.
As far as cetaceans like orcas and dolphins it does not seem to me that these animals can be kept humanely in captivity.
So carnivores (or rather piscivores in the case oft many cetaceans) in general cannot be kept in captivity? Then why do so many domestic cats and dogs seem to do just fine? And does that mean that the various felidae, mustelids, canidae, viverridae, hyenas, pinnipeds etc. can not be kept "humanely"(?) in captivity?
Orcas ARE dolphins, btw.
Orcas ARE dolphins, btw.
I don't think it's very often elephants in northern climates are locked inside for weeks on end. At the Cleveland Zoo at least they are given opportunities to go out in the winter even in the snow. Cleveland also has a heated off-exhibit range where the elephant can go on very cold days. Also, doesn't Denver have an elephant sized hot tub or something like that? I do not believe climate to be an issue in keeping elephants anymore with new exhibit designs. I do not believe that all carnivores are worse off in captivity either. I just think the ocean is much more difficult to replicate than terrestrial environments. For terrestrial carnivores such big cats or bears exhibits can have vegetation, varied topography and terrain, dens and perching areas, but for cetaceans how exactly can you replicate their natural habitat other than creating a large 7 million gallon pool? I think cetaceans can be humanely kept, but that is why there is the need for a lot of one on one time with trainers, as their enrichment comes much less from their exhibit and more from shows, training, etc.
That's interesting to hear that about elephants. I've always thought the idea of elephants, giraffes, and other animals like that are indoors in small spaces a lot in the winter makes me question the ethics of having them in cold climates.
There was a discussion before on this, so I don't derail this topic anymore. http://www.zoochat.com/2/should-zoos-cold-climates-keep-animals-304840/We
Take a look at modern dolphin exhibits like the one at Nuremberg with its varied topography, various interconnected pools, mixed species husbandry, artificial seaweed etc. Together with the training, that's way more mental stimuli than most terrestrial carnivores (or any other zoo animal other than elephants)receive. And if you think about it, water actually allows for a better dimensional usage of the exhibit space.
I think cetacean keeping will follow the way of apes and elephant keeping. Larger enclosures will be built and husbandry improved. Bit of information on behind the scenes treatment (like those "zoo story" films so common in TV) will also stop sensation-seeking stories.
Cetaceans interact surprisingly little with their solid environment, outside scratching on sand or similar surface and occassional playing with toys. Maybe because two species (bottlenose dolphin and killer whale) are both living in water column and in very various natural habitats.
Interesting would be how they respond to artifical waves or water currents.
Interesting would be also their acoustic environment. I hear occassionally that cetaceans (and fish) suffer from the noise of water filters or knocking in the glass (this is said to create powerful shock waves). But no solid research here. Also, cetaceans might like sounds played in their tanks (natural, music, conspecifics etc).
Cetaceans interact surprisingly little with their solid environment, outside scratching on sand or similar surface and occassional playing with toys. Maybe because two species (bottlenose dolphin and killer whale) are both living in water column and in very various natural habitats.
Interesting would be how they respond to artifical waves or water currents.
Interesting would be also their acoustic environment. I hear occassionally that cetaceans (and fish) suffer from the noise of water filters or knocking in the glass (this is said to create powerful shock waves). But no solid research here. Also, cetaceans might like sounds played in their tanks (natural, music, conspecifics etc).
Yeah, not to derail the thread, but it just seems a little extreme to believe elephants should not be kept in zoos in say the midwest such as Cleveland or Indianapolis, where they are going outside the majority of the year (Mid-March- Mid-November) and many days in the winter as well. Also, having been to Africa where it can be extremely cold the elephants carry along with their daily activities. Mornings were often below freezing, and the elephants really do not seem to mind this. Not to mention, indoor enclosures now feature rubberized or deep sand flooring. I also believe unpredictable weather can be an added enrichment.