Marwell Wildlife Marwell -as it is (a few perspectives)

Communityzoo said:
At the same time, I think the herd sizes had dropped considerably, I imagine because Marwell has calculated that they can maintain a smaller number of individuals while still being acceptable to the public, while saving significant costs. Also, Marwell has always tended to keep it's hoofstock on the hardstands for around six months of the year in order to rest the grass paddocks. This isn't something I've seen at, say, Whipsnade or Port Lympne, and the majority of hardstands at Marwell are typically small, barren yards (as are most hardstands in zoos/parks). So I can also appreciate the visitor experience in winter may be different in terms of how the ungulates confined to the yards are percieved. As I've also noticed Marwell reducing this practice in recent years, I have thought perhaps the smaller herd sizes allow for increased used of the grass paddocks?
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I would say smaller herd sizes can be easier to manage in many respects:

-Smaller, and maybe because of this more appropriate, housing
-Easier to control breeding within the group
-Linked to the above point, reducing the chance of overcrowding through breeding
-As you said, ability to maintain quality of paddock more easily
-Of course, reduced costs
-Easier identification and understanding of individual animals
-Smaller group size could (but not necessarily would or would in a positive way) also have an effect on aggression in a group, tameness/wildness of animals (from a husbandry and stress point of view), parasite loads etc.

This isn't to say that I wouldn't like to see large antelope herds of course, but I can understand why in many ways it may be beneficial for the zoo and maybe the animals too to keep smaller herds...
 
Communityzoo said:
Marwell was never a top 'zoo', with the kind of infrastructure and facilities you might expect from such a title, ...

Had Marwell remained in this form, I suspect it would have closed down by now, or have had to make some drastic changes following a threat of closure. Today's visiting public won't tolerate long outdoor walks with little undercover viewing or facilities. Over the last 15-20 years, Marwell has created a mosaic of upgraded exhibits and facilities so that there is now more to do for the public that tour the park in the open air looking through chain link at carnivores and over fences at hoofstock.

For people with membership who love this zoo, I'm not defending the loss of species, but I do think that, with Longleat, Woburn etc being viable banks for many of the species previously only held between Marwell and ZSL in the UK, there just isn't the need to hold 15 roan antelope or 20 Nyala.

It is interesting that visitor numbers have been declining, as mentioned in the plans for the new rhino/antelope accommodation. I also give some weight to tripadvisor reveiws, and perhaps if the next development fails to improve visitor footfall, Marwell may begin to start working with some new EEPs.
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I'm not having a specific go at communityzoo here, since I have little doubt that the views expressed here are not far away from those held by many senior UK zoo professionals - but really!

Where is the passion? Where is the awareness that there are other species held within EAZA that could do with building up captive populations (Temminck's Cat, Clouded Leopard, Asiatic Lion, Dhole, Sun Bear, Yellow-throated Marten, Malay Tapir, any form of Asiatic Wild Ass, Vietnamese Sika, Barasingha, Eld's Deer, Banteng, Lesser Kudu, Mhorr Gazelle all spring to mind as being species well within Marwell's current capacities)?

I also disagree that "[t]oday's visiting public won't tolerate long outdoor walks with little undercover viewing or facilities." as being the sole criterion as to whether the public will visit an establishment. Try visiting a top RSPB reserve in late spring around lunchtime! Minsmere, for example, will be heaving!

People aren't daft. They will not pay more and more money to see the same stock in jazzed up accommodation. Marwell IMHO as the leading animal collection in prosperous, populous South Hampshire could be a major European zoo; add together the population from Christchurch in the West to Chichester in The East and I rather doubt that it would be much under 1.5 million.


The determination to develop the zoo, WITHOUT neglecting its original rationale ( Hamerton's director would undoubtedly give his eye teeth to have all the land possessed by Marwell ) seems to be the missing ingredient - not a vastly expensive new house for White Rhino, Grevy's Zebra and Scimitar-horned Oryx.
 
IanRRobinson said:
I also disagree that "[t]oday's visiting public won't tolerate long outdoor walks with little undercover viewing or facilities." as being the sole criterion as to whether the public will visit an establishment. Try visiting a top RSPB reserve in late spring around lunchtime! Minsmere, for example, will be heaving!

The determination to develop the zoo, WITHOUT neglecting its original rationale ( Hamerton's director would undoubtedly give his eye teeth to have all the land possessed by Marwell ) seems to be the missing ingredient - not a vastly expensive new house for White Rhino, Grevy's Zebra and Scimitar-horned Oryx.
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I agree that there is missed potential for Marwell to participate in managed programs for many more species. I also agree that it is unfortunate that the modus operandi of Marwell seems similar to many collections today in that they are seemingly unwilling to invest in new species or make changes to enclosures without it needing to be a massive capital project amidst much fanfare.

The rhino facility is in need of a serious upgrade, as they have clearly acknowledged, and so why not create a visitor centre within it? Does this automatically prevent other species being brought to the park? Of course not. Would people have found it more palatable had some new antelope species been brought in to live with the rhino? I'm sure, but then which species would be both available to Marwell and in sufficient conservation need to justify funds going towards their accommodation? And this would happen while endangered zebra and oryx remain elsewhere in the park? It wouldn't make sense when justifying releasing the funding.

Of course, it would make sense to work with new species as they go out of others but, to be honest, I was wondering if they'd even keep the rhino with the way things seemed to be going, and I suppose I'm just trying to see the positive side of them making a bigger investment than a walk-through wallaby paddock or a coati enclosure. Equally heartening are the fosa and okapi arrivals mentioned on other threads and, if it is realised, a development showcasing their success with pygmy hippo while also creating the sort of underwater viewing exhibit people often criticise Whipsnade for not having would be another very positive step, even if it is again investing in existing species.

If Marwell is going to bring in new species I would imagine they would not be looking at more ungulates. I would not be surprised if they do eventually embark on planning for a bachelor gorilla group, for example, as previously discussed.

In terms of public expectation of undercover areas etc, of course people visit nature reserves - add to that list woods, parks, etc. - but in the context of entry costs, its a little different visiting a zoo. People are more aware they've spent a lot to get in somewhere. Port Lympne hasn't been turned into the place it is today based on guess work. Its not what I would like, but then most people don't enjoy a quiet day in an empty zoo walking for miles communing with nature! People paying high entry costs want a bit more comfort than they expect from a a day walking in the countryside.
 
pipaluk said:
I tend to agree with you to a large extent, which is why i didn't bother responding until now. Shorts' post is well written, but i'm afraid that to me it is ultra-positive in the extreme and unjustifiably so. Only a few of us really appreciate just how far Marwell has fallen, but very few seem to agree and seem to think a loss of over a third of the mammal collection in less than 10 years is a normal occurance!
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Thank you Pipaluk, and well said.
Marwell has indeed fallen a long way, or taken a different route, in a very short time which is completely due to a drastic change in direction, simply because there are different "hands on the steering wheel" these days - unfortunately some people on here just don`t seem to understand this.
Whilst those that know Marwell of old will know what I mean. For those of us who knew Marwell as it used to be, under John Knowles, and appreciated what a fantastic place it used to be, especially for the zoo enthusiast, it is all the more hurtful and sad to see it changing in the way it has in recent years. Most of what was once achieved and created by JK has been systematically undone since his departure from the trust. So perhaps some of you may be able to appreciate and understand why there is a certain degree of bitterness over it all. The days of JK are long gone and we have to accept it, the place can never be the same with a new driver in the seat.
 
From Ian R Robinson ;Where is the passion? Where is the awareness that there are other species held within EAZA that could do with building up captive populations (Temminck's Cat, Clouded Leopard, Asiatic Lion, Dhole, Sun Bear, Yellow-throated Marten, Malay Tapir, any form of Asiatic Wild Ass, Vietnamese Sika, Barasingha, Eld's Deer, Banteng, Lesser Kudu, Mhorr Gazelle all spring to mind as being species well within Marwell's current capacities)?

Ideally yes, but the "new" Marwell is just not interested, they have their own agenda.
It is interesting to note that of those species you quote ; Asiatic(hybrid) Lions, Sun Bears, Kulan (Asiatic Wild Ass),Clouded Leopards, Malayan Tapir, Barasingha and Dama (Mhorr type) Gazelles, all have been kept before, under John Knowles rein! And that is all history now.
 
Marwell...

I didn't know they ever had Sun Bears, but I did see the second pair of Asian Lions before they left Jersey. Zoo-bred in India, they subsequently proved to have African blood.
 
FBBird said:
I didn't know they ever had Sun Bears.
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As far as I know, these were never on public show, and, if they were, it was only for a short while, between 1972 and 1973. They were kept in temporary accommodation in the walled yard - where the small tropical house is now found - but were soon moved in to Weyhill, in the days before it was exclusively a collection of birds of prey.
 
sooty mangabey said:
As far as I know, these were never on public show, and, if they were, it was only for a short while, between 1972 and 1973. They were kept in temporary accommodation in the walled yard - where the small tropical house is now found - but were soon moved in to Weyhill, in the days before it was exclusively a collection of birds of prey.
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The Sun bears came from Weyhill as it was changing to a birds of prey centre,as was said they never settled and were sent to Rhenen Zoo In Holland.
 
okapis said:
The Sun bears came from Weyhill as it was changing to a birds of prey centre,as was said they never settled and were sent to Rhenen Zoo In Holland.
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They were kept in the quarantine cage vacated by the Siberian Tigers after their exhibit was complete. Their acquisition was not deliberately planned but simply because they were offered to them (a number of the other early 'fill-in' species i.e. not ungulates or cats, were acquired in similar fashion).They immediately started digging huge holes in the flooring and fearing an escape, were quickly moved on. Weyhill knew what they were doing in getting rid of them...
 
I believe that with some creative and sensible planning, Marwell could have a very effective 'facelift' at a relatively sensible price. One of the common themes that always arises with discussion about Marwell, is that the large paddocks of hoof stock cause the general public to walk a long way between exhibits and if they are on hard-standing there may not be much to observe on the way!
Why not add some enclosures at 'half-way points' to add interest e.g. tortoise, weaver bird, Ratel, Mongoose and termites.
These mini enclosures could include some seating, interactive education material and themed food vending in savannah straw huts.
I've also thought for a long time that this park would be an ideal candidate to hold Gelada in large paddocks (like Edinburgh) and Chimps (like Monkey World).
Though its really nice to see the open green areas at Marwell, would it not be a good idea to paint the hard standing green (it is done with tennis hard courts all over the world) and add hard sand/gravel areas with fake Acacia, Mopane and Baobab trees - it is done at American theme parks!
 
Having dug out the 1987 Marwell Annual Report for a question on scimitar-horned oryx , I noticed it includes a 15-year Development Plan .

Amongst the long-term plans were Anthropoid Apes where cheetahs are now , a Nocturnal House on the South Road , a Reptile House directly above the Walled Garden , the African Bowl exhibit with an extension of the train running alongside it and a new Ungulate House where the Cafe Graze is . The Penguins were to go behind the Tigers
 
Pertinax said:
They were kept in the quarantine cage vacated by the Siberian Tigers after their exhibit was complete. Their acquisition was not deliberately planned but simply because they were offered to them (a number of the other early 'fill-in' species i.e. not ungulates or cats, were acquired in similar fashion).They immediately started digging huge holes in the flooring and fearing an escape, were quickly moved on. Weyhill knew what they were doing in getting rid of them...
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Yes, and as Okapis said they went on to Rhenen and then at least one went to Surabaya I believe, I have the details somewhere. Sadly both animals died quite young I think. They were replaced at Weyhill by European Brown Bears initially before the park changed later on.
 
Bele said:
Having dug out the 1987 Marwell Annual Report for a question on scimitar-horned oryx , I noticed it includes a 15-year Development Plan .

Amongst the long-term plans were Anthropoid Apes where cheetahs are now , a Nocturnal House on the South Road , a Reptile House directly above the Walled Garden , the African Bowl exhibit with an extension of the train running alongside it and a new Ungulate House where the Cafe Graze is . The Penguins were to go behind the Tigers
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The "African Bowl" had always been John Knowles`s plan, but it would probably have been different to the present version (well it would have been full of animals for a start!).
Incidentally Anthropoid Apes were often thought about and at one point in more recent years when the whole "biome thing" was going on Gorillas (bachelors) and even Bonobos were considered! Believe it or not the old lion house was considered as a possible home for Bonobos!!
 
Nanook said:
Incidentally Anthropoid Apes were often thought about and at one point in more recent years when the whole "biome thing" was going on Gorillas (bachelors) and even Bonobos were considered! Believe it or not the old lion house was considered as a possible home for Bonobos!!
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I did hear about them talked about and it was quite a turn around from the original concept of the park. In those days Apes and Monkeys were never planned, being as low down on the list of wants as just about anything. Interesting how the thinking has changed, presumably from the experiences gained in how to draw in more visitors.

IMO Apes and large monkeys do best in zoos that have some long tradition of keeping them, though of course there has to be a 'first time' at any zoo. Apart from the Sulawesi macaques and the very unsuitably housed Siamangs, the only other larger primates at Marwell- Colobus, Dianas and Hamlyn's monkeys all seemed to come and go quite rapidly. Possibly they were brought in to go into the new Giraffe House complex during the short directorship of Miranda Stevenson? (she was certainly responsible for the Hamlyn's) I don't know if they still have any Colobus or Dianas?

I guess the day will come when they do actually go into a Great Ape species instead of just talking- bachelor Gorillas would seem the most obvious, relatively easy to obtain as new holders are always welcome.
 
Pertinax said:
I did hear about them talked about and it was quite a turn around from the original concept of the park. In those days Apes and Monkeys were never planned, being as low down on the list of wants as just about anything. Interesting how the thinking has changed, presumably from the experiences gained in how to draw in more visitors.

IMO Apes and large monkeys do best in zoos that have some long tradition of keeping them, though of course there has to be a 'first time' at any zoo. Apart from the Sulawesi macaques and the very unsuitably housed Siamangs, the only other larger primates at Marwell- Colobus, Dianas and Hamlyn's monkeys all seemed to come and go quite rapidly. Possibly they were brought in to go into the new Giraffe House complex during the short directorship of Miranda Stevenson? (she was certainly responsible for the Hamlyn's) I don't know if they still have any Colobus or Dianas?

I guess the day will come when they do actually go into a Great Ape species instead of just talking- bachelor Gorillas would seem the most obvious, relatively easy to obtain as new holders are always welcome.
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Yes they still have 2.1. Colobus,and still have Sulawesi macaques but only 1.4. with no births for some time.but SURPRISE they did bring a group of silvery marmosets in this year held with the white faced Saki.Can not see Gorillas for some time talked about but thats all.
 
The Marwell of today is probably the outcome of what one has seen happen at many other collections during parts of the current decade(s).

Call it rationalization, new collection plan thinking …., well whatever! Quite a lot these days is also driven by regional TAG’s and quite a number of species have – veering from the sometimes sad till a considerable loss – been taken of wish lists or are no longer recommended by individual TAG’s or are on phase out.

I can by my own experience name about a good dozen zoos or so where this has significantly and over a longer time period affected their collection and impacted general outlook of their zoos. Now, I can see that some Marwell afficionados and regulars may lament this current situation, but I am sure the full on length ungulate collection Marwell that once was will never be again. It is a passed … now derelict railway station so to speak!

However, as before I – as a non-regular and infrequent visitor – continue to wonder what the current collection plans are and what the future outlook plan will be. Some of you have hinted …: “There is an agenda”! Well, I was surprised …? Is that not at any zoo? However, I no clearer now than before on where Marwell Wildlife actually stands and no-one seems to be able to fill in the details (or is unwilling to do so)?

Once more, what is that agenda? What is the masterplan (knowing the erstwhile plan with gorillas, a reptile house, a wider bird collection, more primates … is also down the sink-hole)? What is in the collection plan?

Give us some clout!


*****

For what it is worth: I do enjoy going around Marwell now … as I did before (and that coming from a self-confessed ungulate fan).
 
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