Like what, make it simple Taun, what do you want answering I cant think Ive avoided anything?
You on the other hand have failed to tell me about the "warning" I have received, please do so. Also tell me why its RIGHT for the picture to be posted and responsible, without the "I cant see a problem with it" crap.
A simple yes or no answer will do, I don't see how you can even answer the question with what you have written, please feel free to ignore them just like most question put to you.
Warning, I can only presume you mean when I ASKED you a question? Which you dodged!
That's it ...... I've tried to stay away from the bunfight this thread has turned into but can't resist any longer.
I saw this photo when it was 1st uploaded, and before any comments had been left for it. I fully admit, my very immediate reaction to it was 'Wow' ...... as in, lucky girl being able to get that close to a lion. I admit there was probably a bit of 'I want to do that' at work. That however, was my heart reacting, not my head, and almost immediately after that initial thought, the rational side of my brain kicked in and I actually started to think about what was being portrayed.
Having thought about it, the photo makes me feel uncomfortable, for most of the reasons DawnB has outlined. That said, I do think it's wrong to totally dismiss the intimate knowledge an experienced keeper has of a particular animal, and accept that in the course of its day to day care, there must be occasions where judgement calls sometimes have to be made (based on that knowledge of the animal's 'personality', as well as its past and potential behaviour). I imagine such occasions might arise when something unexpected happens. You could therefore argue (as many have done) that Kate was using her judgement in posing for that picture and exposing herself to risk (I think it'd be foolish to ever claim there was 'no' risk) and perhaps ask why it's anyone else's business she should choose to do this ?
Well ..... in my opinion, I believe it becomes 'our' business when such a photo is published on a public site (albeit one with a comparatively small readership). I accept this isn't a national newspaper, and I also accept that many of us here with an interest in zoos probably understand that keepers have special bonds with the animals they care for and that it would be naiive to believe that no 'petting' whatsoever goes on in zoos .......... but, how do I articulate this ?, confirming it with photographic evidence makes me feel, personally, very uncomfortable. Please don't shoot me down in flames people, but if I recall correctly, there are a number of photos (I think) in the gallery here of zoos where physical interaction between the public and undomesticated animals (I think 'pet's corner' is somewhat different) is actively encouraged, for profit and for a 'photo opportunity', and members have quite rightly responded with disgust citing that it's degrading and probably frightening for the animals involved, as well as being potentially very dangerous. (Such practice also raises the question of how it's being achieved ..... are animals drugged, or beaten into submission for example)
Okay ........ I know full well Bristol is doing NO such thing with its paying visitors but I feel that keepers, as dedicated and knowlegable animal custodians, should be setting a good example and NOT publicising their close encounters with wild animals. Dawn commented on this ....... and was accused of hypocrisy in saying that 'it' was okay behind closed doors. Well, I am willing to bet that she doesn't think it's okay behind closed doors either, but without wishing to put words in her mouth, I am guessing that she's simply being realistic and acknowledging, as I said previously, that it would be naiive to deny some keepers don't indulge in some level of what amounts to 'petting' sometimes. God knows, it must be incredibly hard to maintain the appropriate, healthy and safe distance (literally and emotionally) from a wonderful wild animal in your care ......... I hold my hands up and admit I'd find it very hard to resist a sneaky little stroke of a chimp or an orangutan if ever I found one in my care (highly unlikely !) - though I really hope I would have enough will power and respect to be able to do so. BUT, I maintain, that keepers are people to look up to (IMO) and therefore shouldn't be publicly admitting (or ideally, doing ) something which is wrong.
By the way ..... apologies to anyone who's still reading if I'm wittering by now ..... am just trying to type out and make sense of all the things which have occurred to me since seeing Kate's photo and reading the ensuing argument. I do have to say that although I think her misguided, I certainly don't think Kate's some terrible person ...... though Kate, I am concerned how your boss(es) might view such a photo being made public.
Dawn ...... I do see where you're coming from on this (or at least most of where you're coming from) and I understand why you feel as strongly as you do but if you want to convince others of the merits of your opinion it's far better to try and win them round by calm debate rather than by resorting to rudeness. You want to be remembered for your rationale, not for being abrupt or snipey. Why give people ammunition against you ?
In all fairness, I've also got to say that having been a member here for a few months now, I can honestly say, hand on heart that I've never got the impression that any single individual (Hix or anyone else) 'owns' the site ...... though it's certainly something I've noticed at different times on other sorts of forums which can get very 'cliquey' with a definite top-dog, and a golden circle of favoured posters with their 'in-jokes' and propensity to ignore anyone outside the circle etc (I digress ....). Anyhow, my impression of this site is that it's one of the most balanced and welcoming I've ever read. There are a large number of very generous contributors here who spend a great deal of time answering the stupid questions ignorant people like me think up, and almost all of them do so without making me feel like an idiot for asking. I personally haven't noticed any evidence of a hierachy or anyone lording it at all ........ and I also always thought Hix was male !
I hope I've not offended anyone with what I've written.
Dawn commented on this ....... and was accused of hypocrisy in saying that 'it' was okay behind closed doors. Well, I am willing to bet that she doesn't think it's okay behind closed doors either, but without wishing to put words in her mouth, I am guessing that she's simply being realistic and acknowledging, as I said previously, that it would be naiive to deny some keepers don't indulge in some level of what amounts to 'petting' sometimes. God knows, it must be incredibly hard to maintain the appropriate, healthy and safe distance (literally and emotionally) from a wonderful wild animal in your care ......... I hold my hands up and admit I'd find it very hard to resist a sneaky little stroke of a chimp or an orangutan if ever I found one in my care (highly unlikely !) - though I really hope I would have enough will power and respect to be able to do so. BUT, I maintain, that keepers are people to look up to (IMO) and therefore shouldn't be publicly admitting (or ideally, doing ) something which is wrong.
As you some up where to you draw the line? Just because a Zebra does not eat meat, does not mean they are not deadly or a risk to your health. Does this mean that if a keeper posted a photo of them with Zebra would we still have all this fuss? I very much doubt it.
Dawn ...... I do see where you're coming from on this (or at least most of where you're coming from) and I understand why you feel as strongly as you do but if you want to convince others of the merits of your opinion it's far better to try and win them round by calm debate rather than by resorting to rudeness. You want to be remembered for your rationale, not for being abrupt or snipey. Why give people ammunition against you ?
Again you sum up what many people on here feel about Dawn B, it's hard to take someone seriously when they cannot rationally put there opinions across.
A simple yes or no answer will do, I don't see how you can even answer the question with what you have written, please feel free to ignore them just like most question put to you.
Warning, I can only presume you mean when I ASKED you a question? Which you dodged!
If you were not on about my question, then please point me to what you are dribbling on about?
I answered this! I NEVER said its ok to "close" the door, read the posts, I said its nobodys business what goes on behind closed doors, but when its entered into a public forum THEN it becomes everyones business!
That's it ...... I've tried to stay away from the bunfight this thread has turned into but can't resist any longer.
I saw this photo when it was 1st uploaded, and before any comments had been left for it. I fully admit, my very immediate reaction to it was 'Wow' ...... as in, lucky girl being able to get that close to a lion. I admit there was probably a bit of 'I want to do that' at work. That however, was my heart reacting, not my head, and almost immediately after that initial thought, the rational side of my brain kicked in and I actually started to think about what was being portrayed.
Having thought about it, the photo makes me feel uncomfortable, for most of the reasons DawnB has outlined. That said, I do think it's wrong to totally dismiss the intimate knowledge an experienced keeper has of a particular animal, and accept that in the course of its day to day care, there must be occasions where judgement calls sometimes have to be made (based on that knowledge of the animal's 'personality', as well as its past and potential behaviour). I imagine such occasions might arise when something unexpected happens. You could therefore argue (as many have done) that Kate was using her judgement in posing for that picture and exposing herself to risk (I think it'd be foolish to ever claim there was 'no' risk) and perhaps ask why it's anyone else's business she should choose to do this ?
Well ..... in my opinion, I believe it becomes 'our' business when such a photo is published on a public site (albeit one with a comparatively small readership). I accept this isn't a national newspaper, and I also accept that many of us here with an interest in zoos probably understand that keepers have special bonds with the animals they care for and that it would be naiive to believe that no 'petting' whatsoever goes on in zoos .......... but, how do I articulate this ?, confirming it with photographic evidence makes me feel, personally, very uncomfortable. Please don't shoot me down in flames people, but if I recall correctly, there are a number of photos (I think) in the gallery here of zoos where physical interaction between the public and undomesticated animals (I think 'pet's corner' is somewhat different) is actively encouraged, for profit and for a 'photo opportunity', and members have quite rightly responded with disgust citing that it's degrading and probably frightening for the animals involved, as well as being potentially very dangerous. (Such practice also raises the question of how it's being achieved ..... are animals drugged, or beaten into submission for example)
Okay ........ I know full well Bristol is doing NO such thing with its paying visitors but I feel that keepers, as dedicated and knowlegable animal custodians, should be setting a good example and NOT publicising their close encounters with wild animals. Dawn commented on this ....... and was accused of hypocrisy in saying that 'it' was okay behind closed doors. Well, I am willing to bet that she doesn't think it's okay behind closed doors either, but without wishing to put words in her mouth, I am guessing that she's simply being realistic and acknowledging, as I said previously, that it would be naiive to deny some keepers don't indulge in some level of what amounts to 'petting' sometimes. God knows, it must be incredibly hard to maintain the appropriate, healthy and safe distance (literally and emotionally) from a wonderful wild animal in your care ......... I hold my hands up and admit I'd find it very hard to resist a sneaky little stroke of a chimp or an orangutan if ever I found one in my care (highly unlikely !) - though I really hope I would have enough will power and respect to be able to do so. BUT, I maintain, that keepers are people to look up to (IMO) and therefore shouldn't be publicly admitting (or ideally, doing ) something which is wrong.
By the way ..... apologies to anyone who's still reading if I'm wittering by now ..... am just trying to type out and make sense of all the things which have occurred to me since seeing Kate's photo and reading the ensuing argument. I do have to say that although I think her misguided, I certainly don't think Kate's some terrible person ...... though Kate, I am concerned how your boss(es) might view such a photo being made public.
Dawn ...... I do see where you're coming from on this (or at least most of where you're coming from) and I understand why you feel as strongly as you do but if you want to convince others of the merits of your opinion it's far better to try and win them round by calm debate rather than by resorting to rudeness. You want to be remembered for your rationale, not for being abrupt or snipey. Why give people ammunition against you ?
In all fairness, I've also got to say that having been a member here for a few months now, I can honestly say, hand on heart that I've never got the impression that any single individual (Hix or anyone else) 'owns' the site ...... though it's certainly something I've noticed at different times on other sorts of forums which can get very 'cliquey' with a definite top-dog, and a golden circle of favoured posters with their 'in-jokes' and propensity to ignore anyone outside the circle etc (I digress ....). Anyhow, my impression of this site is that it's one of the most balanced and welcoming I've ever read. There are a large number of very generous contributors here who spend a great deal of time answering the stupid questions ignorant people like me think up, and almost all of them do so without making me feel like an idiot for asking. I personally haven't noticed any evidence of a hierachy or anyone lording it at all ........ and I also always thought Hix was male !
I hope I've not offended anyone with what I've written.
As you some up where to you draw the line? Just because a Zebra does not eat meat, does not mean they are not deadly or a risk to your health. Does this mean that if a keeper posted a photo of them with Zebra would we still have all this fuss? I very much doubt it.
Again you sum up what many people on here feel about Dawn B, it's hard to take someone seriously when they cannot rationally put there opinions across.
Perhaps if she wasnt told to "deal with it" and be told she was categorically wrong, she may be a little more receptive to critisism, but then some are perfect and always right, isnt that so!
You need to READ your own posts, telling me to "deal with it" is what riled me with you, if that isnt forcing your views I dont know what is, but Hix I was warned about you being like this, so in actual fact it came of no surprise which is why I responded to you in a similar fashion.
So I really am finding it hard to understand how you could ask me this question when I was asking it in the first place, please correct me if am wrong?
I dont know how she goes about her daily routine, hopefully not in this manner, this picture was taken with one hand on a phone one on a Lion and her face pressed up against the mesh, she would of stood no chance if anything went wrong.
Still not telling Kate how to do her job? At the same time, I notice, you can't take Zambar telling you what he thinks of your profession, slightly hippocritical.
In answer to this, as other members have already pointed out, the only thing which would fit through this mesh is a stray tooth or claw - enough to cause a nasty cut but nothing more. Therefore, saying she "would of stood no chance" is not really true. In fact, I would imagine that in many proffesions workers take such risks; not wearing hard-hats for example. It may not be totally PC, but it's reality.
Yes my domesticated PETS are fussed and petted, dont you have a pet? What is problem with dog showing, lets see now, oh yes, exhibiting animals for public entertainment isnt exhibition is it? .
No I don't have a pet, however I show the dog that I train regularly (agility, it's much more fun ) and I would say that showing off a "fussed", impeccably-groomed pekinese poncing around a show ring is far more humiliating than rubbing your head against a lion.
Incidentally, you say here that your dogs are domesticated pets, yet below is a statement where you claim to work with "wild" animals. So which is it - were you below trying to build your own credentials in order to give your opinions more credibility or do you have a pack of wolves in your garden? I would imagine the former is probably true and, as such, suggest that you maintain a little more continuity in future, it will give your arguments far more credibility .
I have worked alongsidewild animals and their management for over 17yrs, I shoot regularly, I work Terriers, I "could" post pictures of cuddly GENUINELY wild Foxes and other animals I come into contact with, but I dont. I dont find it "cool" nor anything else to promote "wild" captive animals is this light, but as I said, thats me!
Still not telling Kate how to do her job? At the same time, I notice, you can't take Zambar telling you what he thinks of your profession, slightly hippocritical.
My profession? What running a kennels and cattery? What would you like me to tell him? You have me confused!
In answer to this, as other members have already pointed out, the only thing which would fit through this mesh is a stray tooth or claw - enough to cause a nasty cut but nothing more. Therefore, saying she "would of stood no chance" is not really true. In fact, I would imagine that in many proffesions workers take such risks; not wearing hard-hats for example. It may not be totally PC, but it's reality.
A "stray" tooth or claw, blimey, is that REALLY the extent of what you could see happening?
No I don't have a pet, however I show the dog that I train regularly (agility, it's much more fun ) and I would say that showing off a "fussed", impeccably-groomed pekinese poncing around a show ring is far more humiliating than rubbing your head against a lion.
I agree I dont have Pekingese, my breeds is largely untouched. Agility is "fun" if you like it.
Incidentally, you say here that your dogs are domesticated pets, yet below is a statement where you claim to work with "wild" animals. So which is it - were you below trying to build your own credentials in order to give your opinions more credibility or do you have a pack of wolves in your garden? I would imagine the former is probably true and, as such, suggest that you maintain a little more continuity in future, it will give your arguments far more credibility .
Both! I do work for Farmers controlling pests (wild of course) I shoot (Squirrel, Rabbit, vermin Birds, Foxes etc) and I manage a boarding kennels and cattety, see? Domestic AND wild!
I also used to assess dogs for the army, prison service and Police force, drugs and explosive dogs, cadaver detection dogs and patrol dogs, some of those were wild I can tell you!!
And three members out of a forum of two thousand, well that just shows how much people agree
I cannot answer this question because I asked it first, but you have turned it on it's head.
I really don't understand why this is so difficult for you; you posted the above, yes?
I then posted this, below.
So I really am finding it hard to understand how you could ask me this question when I was asking it in the first place, please correct me if am wrong?
