You know what, czjimmy. You are right why be angry towards Ashley. It is more about frustration. Lets have more bears in captivity in apauling conditions.
There will come a day soon l hope. That bears are no longer in zoos. WHY because zoos themselves recognise just how hard they are to keep.
Also CZJimmy, your examples of exhibits that you have not personally seen. This happens allot here on zoochat something that l always find frustrating.
eg Quote
"The Smithsonian zoo's sloth bear and giant panda exhibits look top-class"
It is actually really small and 1 of the males constantl shows sterotype behaviour! Yes the exhibit "looks" fantastic. In a photo!
Of CZJimmy's list I have seen the exhibits at Chester, Jersey, Whipsnade, Welsh Mountain, Rotterdam and San Diego. All of them are good and most are superb (Chester's Spectacleds, Whipsnade's Brown Bears and San Diego's Polars in particular). I have seen all the exhibits I comment on above. Have you seen these exhibits? If not, I don't see how you are able to judge them as not adequate any more than CZJimmy (if indeed he hasn't seen them) could judge them to be good.
You know what, czjimmy. You are right why be angry towards Ashley. It is more about frustration. Lets have more bears in captivity in apauling conditions.
There will come a day soon l hope. That bears are no longer in zoos. WHY because zoos themselves recognise just how hard they are to keep.
Also CZJimmy, your examples of exhibits that you have not personally seen. This happens allot here on zoochat something that l always find frustrating.
eg Quote
"The Smithsonian zoo's sloth bear and giant panda exhibits look top-class"
It is actually really small and 1 of the males constantl shows sterotype behaviour! Yes the exhibit "looks" fantastic. In a photo!
On the other hand, most modern bear enclosures are not "appalling" at all and actually provide good stimulation to the inhabitants.
When London held Sloth Bears they recieved them from Poland i think and the female (Lanka I think) showed signs of stereotyping (I'm making an assumption she used to live in a typical bear grotto). However with London's rigourous enrichment schedule and good enclosure the stereotyping became toned down and her offspring do not display similar signs having lived most of their life in London.
I guess the point i'm trying to make is often bears which stereotype have picked up these traits in previous enclosures. I believe the National Zoo held their bears in grottoes before the Asian renovation?
If they are looked after appropriately then bears are no more unsuited to captivity than any other large carnivore. Tigers stereotype in some zoos - should they be removed from every zoo on the planet?
Regarding the photo thing; so what? It's a great resource and the vast number of photos give a good enough impression of the exhibit to make a basic opinion. Obviously it doesn't tell the full story, but sometimes seeing an exhibit in person doesn't either...
*and I'd appreciate less sarcasm in a serious discussion. "Time and a place"
You know what, czjimmy. You are right why be angry towards Ashley. It is more about frustration. Lets have more bears in captivity in apauling conditions.
No, let's keep them in good conditions like the previously mentioned zoos do.
Or not, lets not keep them at all. Hell, why draw the line at bears? Tigers are often stereotyped, same with eles so let's not have them in zoos. And if we're going out of elephants and tigers we might as well stop with hippos, rhinos and cats altogether. If we're stopping with cats we might aswell stop keeping dogs. Don't get me started on primates
I just think this enclosure is an acceptable size, mainly because it's pretty tall. But no, it's not perfect and they'd probably be better off in a larger cage. However if this one had more stuff in it then I think it would be fine. Again, it's not about space, it's about quality of space.
EDIT: Jimmy, you're right. I heard at work experience she used to live in a tiny cage. She can't break the habit of weaving every time she's inactive.
I just think this enclosure is an acceptable size, mainly because it's pretty tall. But no, it's not perfect and they'd probably be better off in a larger cage. However if this one had more stuff in it then I think it would be fine. Again, it's not about space, it's about quality of space.
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Personally l see this as a case of what should be unacceptable being acceptable.
Yes the old extended argument of if we are not going to keep bears. Then why keep the rest of the large carnivores.
Big cats such as lions can spend 23 hours a day sleeping!
Tigers well, maybe these are also unsuited to captivity. There main source of behavioral enrichment being hunting for food. Then we come along and feed them 6 times a week. Although rotation of exhibit and perfume scenting of enclosures seems to be considered enough. Bronx zoo is a prime exaple of this. The tiger enclosures all look great. Yet just how long do they spend off exhibit?
Hipppos can be very easily provided for it seems a large lake or pool and a cohesive family group.
Rhinos seem perfectly happy in a large paddok.
There seems to be a differance to me. Maybe not you and perhaps we could simply agree to disagree.
I guess the point i'm trying to make is often bears which stereotype have picked up these traits in previous enclosures. I believe the National Zoo held their bears in grottoes before the Asian renovation?
It seems that the zoo world still has allot to learn about stereotype behaviour. It has been recorded that bears will start stereotype behaviour for no obvious reason. That the enclosure may have little to do with this behaviour starting. Obviously it contributes.
When Pittsburgh opened the new polar bear exhibit. A perfectly healthy socialised bear that had not shown stereotype behaviour in the past. 3 weeks in just started?? Personally l think it is stress related like some humans are more sensitive than others. Some bears "crack" sooner than others.
I hope that one day bears are no longer held by city zoos that cannot provide a minimuin standard of care, and that that standard actually be set at a level higher that Whipsnades. [not at all haveing a go at whipsnade, l only want what is acceptable to be of a very high standard]
These somewhat domed enclousures are actually retired WWII aircraft hangers that have been adapted for animals (snow leopards, marmosets, spider monkeys and soon macaws where the condors used to be are found in similar housing). this enclosure was never built for chimps but the marmoset enclosure was previously used for the 3 initial chimps. you can see it in this video:
These somewhat domed enclousures are actually retired WWII aircraft hangers that have been adapted for animals (snow leopards, marmosets, spider monkeys and soon macaws where the condors used to be are found in similar housing). this enclosure was never built for chimps but the marmoset enclosure was previously used for the 3 initial chimps. you can see it in this video:
Yes they are, but in a new enclosure. they were situated in an enclosure similar to this on the entrance drive, now they are found in a new much larger enclosure near the bear lawn. they are currently expanding the old condor enclosure around threefold for the macaws to move into, then possibly put lemurs in the existing macaw enclosure.
Yes they are, but in a new enclosure. they were situated in an enclosure similar to this on the entrance drive, now they are found in a new much larger enclosure near the bear lawn. they are currently expanding the old condor enclosure around threefold for the macaws to move into, then possibly put lemurs in the existing macaw enclosure.
Ah so its the macaws that'll be moving into the old Condor aviary. Been wondering what would become of that aviary since they started re-constructing it.
Lemurs, a good addition, and only a matter of time really until Welsh Mountain got some. The macaw aviary would not have been my first choice personally but I can see the aviary suiting them never the less.
