We'll have to agree to disagree on this. Personally, I think that the Common Hippo are far more of a draw to Whipsnade than the Asiatic Lions are to London; and that in any case £5 million on upgrading the London lion facility is a ridiculous amount of money.
I don't think that I'm the only one who feels this way!
I don't think it should be about which species are the biggest draw but should be based on the animal welfare and overall good to the Zoo. Besides, I would have thought that the Lion is the 'bigger' animal compared to the Hippo, but that's by the bye.
Of course we will all differ on our opinions, more so then others! however I think its always best to focus on the positive aspects of Zoo's.
Try talking to keepers at Whipsnade! The Common Hippos are their most popular species and have been for years. Very, very few species get bigger crowds in zoos anywhere in the world. And the lion enclosure at London isn't that bad. Colchester, Bristol and Cotswold all spring to mind in the UK as having facilities that are no bigger.
ZSL has chosen to highlight its intended involvement in Asiatic Lion conservation in India by building a new facility at London. which will be heavily marketed. This is a policy that for which arguments can be made, but it isn't beyond criticism. And the forum would be pretty pointless if all it did was to tell every zoo in the world that it was wonderful and all its decisions were right.
Try talking to keepers at Whipsnade! The Common Hippos are their most popular species and have been for years. Very, very few species get bigger crowds in zoos anywhere in the world.
That is interesting and I was not aware. I wonder if it because in the UK at least, there are very few places people can see Common Hippos( 'real' Hippos...) so that they are drawn to them for that reason, or is it a more fundamental one- that they are 'interesting' to people per se.
Whichever way, that's a revealing fact. Whipsnade do tend to have a history of keeping species in very basic accomodation over many years though- think Indian Rhino, Spectacled Bear, Kodiak/Polar Bears, Elephants etc to name a few others.
Try talking to keepers at Whipsnade! The Common Hippos are their most popular species and have been for years. Very, very few species get bigger crowds in zoos anywhere in the world. And the lion enclosure at London isn't that bad. Colchester, Bristol and Cotswold all spring to mind in the UK as having facilities that are no bigger.
ZSL has chosen to highlight its intended involvement in Asiatic Lion conservation in India by building a new facility at London. which will be heavily marketed. This is a policy that for which arguments can be made, but it isn't beyond criticism. And the forum would be pretty pointless if all it did was to tell every zoo in the world that it was wonderful and all its decisions were right.
I never said people couldn't discuss, just I am a big fan of all the work Zoo's do and that should be praised.
Its not just the Lion enclosure that's the problem, its the whole Lion Terraces which are not up to scratch in my opinion.
Quite clearly we have very different opinions on the topic, but I would just like to discuss Whipsnade topics in a friendly, constructive way instead of focusing on negatives which we are not in control of. I'm not discrediting your opinions, just trying to be amicable about it.
With respect , it - the statement that hippos are the most popular animals at Whipsnade and the biggest draw - is not a 'fact', but rather an opinion! I am sure cases could be made for several other species at the zoo - the elephants come most obviously to mind.
I wholly agree with Ian: it would be brilliant if Whipsnade could build a superb new hippo exhibit, allowing underwater viewing of a large group. It would be very expensive, but the investment would, I think, be repaid.
I'm not sure that conflating the need for new hippo accommodation with the move to build a new lion exhibit at London is very helpful.
The current lion accommodation is, I am sure, more than adequate from a welfare point of view - but the area is gloomy and stands out in a zoo which, for all that I would like a more diverse collection, is looking a great deal more polished than has been the case in previous decades. Something needs to be done. The sums that will be spent are not, I think, that extortionate - building something of real quality does cost a lot of money!
I think the policy of building significant exhibits every year or two at the London Zoo over the past 15 years has been instrumental in the zoo's renaissance (I know Ian won't like my use of that word!). The period from 1976 to the mid 90s was so moribund, and the decline of the zoo so marked during that time (physically) that a great deal of ground had to be made up. That ground has been made up - the Lion Terraces are the last piece of the jigsaw, perhaps, and now the filling in of the gaps will be able to commence (the North Bank, for example).
The investment at Whipsnade was minimal for years and years. It is only in the past few years that significant sums have been spent on proper exhibits - rather than simple paddocks and cages (very good paddocks and cages though they were, often), with the exception of the rather misguided dolphin pool. Reading annual reports from the 70s and 80s, it is striking how little was done at Whipsnade - every year, the extent of the new building was (without hyperbolic exaggeration) a new item in the playground or, in a good year, a breeding pen for a pair of cranes.
The C21st has seen new exhibits for lemurs, lions, cheetahs, Indian rhinos, European animals, giraffes - and a new play thing, and a new restaurant. Progress is being made! (even if I am sure we would all like it to be rather more rapid). I honestly think that Whipsnade is in as good a shape now as it has ever been in the time for which I have been visiting it - more than three decades - and I would posit that it is probably in better shape now than it has ever been in its 83 year history.
Try talking to keepers at Whipsnade! The Common Hippos are their most popular species and have been for years. Very, very few species get bigger crowds in zoos anywhere in the world.
Well you can knock me down with a feather!
My entirely subjective impression is that the big draws at Whipsnade are the elephants, chimps and brown bears, with the African lions, wolves, cheetahs and perhaps the Indian rhinos also ahead of the hippos - none of them can be seen at Regents Park now of course, except for a couple of cheetahs. All of these species are located closer to the entrance than the hippos and I can't help thinking that if, for example, the hippo pools were located next to the lemur enclosure (beside the former elephant house) they would not be allowed to get into the state shown in this photo.
I know that hippos are exceptionally messy animals and that the pools are cleaned regularly, indeed it has been many years since I saw them looking as bad as they do in this image. But the fact remains that this state is objectionable: moreover viewing a hippo swimming in clean water is a remarkable and memorable experience, although I grant that it requires a large investment in water filtration and treatment.
I agree completely with sooty mangabey. To quote my latest post in the London thread:
Also, as an interesting aside, one of my colleagues took his kids to the zoo last week. We were talking about it and I was very keen to hear his impressions as it was his first visit in decades. He said he was incredibly impressed with the general standard of the zoo and thought it was massively improved since his memories from his own childhood. He said there was no sense of 'these animals shouldn't be here' which he remembered from the past. As an interesting contradiction he said he missed the elephants!
One thing he did comment on though was 'the concrete bit with the lions and leopards [sic]' he said that was shabby and felt out of place with the rest of the zoo.
I don't really want to hijack this thread, but three points do need to be made:
1. The Lion Terraces have been allowed to become a mess. Fifteen years ago, holding Asiatic Lion, Sumatran Tiger, Sand Cat, Clouded Leopard and Amur Leopard they looked a perfectly adequate late twentieth century carnivore facility. If the primates displaced from the Sobells had been (say) housed on the Canal Banks they would have carried on as such.
2. With the greatest of respect,
conflating the need for new hippo accommodation with the move to build a new lion exhibit at London is very helpful
! inasmuch as I have pointed out that £5 million could very easily have been earmarked elsewhere.
3. I am sorry that ajmc doesn't feel that I'm being friendly. That is not my intention, nor to seem negative. It is however, entirely reasonable, as very experienced zoo aficionados like Pertinax and gentle lemur, to suggest that such a high profile (and in the UK very rare!) animals like Common Hippo deserve better accommodation at Whipsnade, and to make the connection between their near unaltered 1950s exhibit, and the proposed expenditure of £5 million at London on a species that can be perfectly well kept with a combination of chain link fencing, a glorified garden shed, some judicious use of internal barriers and planting.
I guess at the end of the day, we can debate/discuss as much as we want but the fact is the ZSL has chosen to create a new Lion enclosure and we will have to wait and see what it is like!
One thing I would like to point out is that the whole Hippo debate came from this picture. Now I know the Pools at Whipsnade are never pools that I would ever want to go swimming in, however when I was there on Friday the pools looked much better and I have to say I have not often seen it like this photo. Granted they are not the clear blue waters that some would like, just this picture is of an extreme case and normally the pools are not as bad as this photo.
I don't really want to hijack this thread, but three points do need to be made:
1. The Lion Terraces have been allowed to become a mess. Fifteen years ago, holding Asiatic Lion, Sumatran Tiger, Sand Cat, Clouded Leopard and Amur Leopard they looked a perfectly adequate late twentieth century carnivore facility. If the primates displaced from the Sobells had been (say) housed on the Canal Banks they would have carried on as such.
2. With the greatest of respect, ! inasmuch as I have pointed out that £5 million could very easily have been earmarked elsewhere.
3. I am sorry that ajmc doesn't feel that I'm being friendly. That is not my intention, nor to seem negative. It is however, entirely reasonable, as very experienced zoo aficionados like Pertinax and gentle lemur, to suggest that such a high profile (and in the UK very rare!) animals like Common Hippo deserve better accommodation at Whipsnade, and to make the connection between their near unaltered 1950s exhibit, and the proposed expenditure of £5 million at London on a species that can be perfectly well kept with a combination of chain link fencing, a glorified garden shed, some judicious use of internal barriers and planting.
Again we are having the same conversation over and over. The issue is not what is held on the Lion Terraces it is what they are held in. You can't 'tart up' all that concrete as the recent efforts show.
You can't just stick 'a combination of chain link fencing, a glorified garden shed, some judicious use of internal barriers and planting' on that site as I'm sure most people appreciate.
The recent developments at both zoos show that ZSL have the capacity to have regular, high profile developments. This isn't the last five million quid in the bank, building a lion enclosure to match the standard of the rest of the zoo doesn't mean nothing else will ever be done or that animals are suffering as a result of some kind of extravagant luxury.
