Berlin Zoo 1995 - The last Elephant Seal in Europe

Good compare, elephants and Gorillas with elepahnt seals...Evidence enough, that some zoofriends only interested to see rare animals and don'tc are about how sucessful the keeping of them is/was ?

But to answer FBBirds posting :

The Zoos said, elephant bulls are to dangerous to keep them, but thats not really true. Of course the bulls are dangerous, but to keep them, which is possible since many, many years ( two diffrent bull stalls to switich them are not an invention of the 20th century, they are known since the end of the 19. century....) its necesssary to build expensive bull stalls...Only to save the money, the zoos said, its to dangerous to keep them.... Then, the zoos mad ethe experience, elephant bring in a lot of money ....So teh zoos decieded to build new elephant exhibits with bull stalls. Or why they are breeding african elephants, they are not an endagerd species...Dresden Zoo was going another way with their new elephant exhibit,, they have not build an elephant bull stall, for what ? Its more easy to use A.I to get an "Baby elephant", than keep an expenisve, dangerous bull...They earned a lot of money with the little guy, mave by humans, who has already killed a keeper a few month ago....Keeping elephants seals has nothing to do with that, its impossible to create optimal living conditions for them in zoos. I suggest all friedns of elephant seals, to read some literature about eelphant selas. NO pool can be big enough to copy the wild life of elephant seals under human care.

I can only repeat my question : Why elephant seals dissappeared from the zoos , altough they were kept more than 70 years ! in zoos ? Gorillas have bred for the first time succesfully in 1956, elephants seals for the first time in 1965, the young dind't survive a long time. I know only one elephant seal born in a zoo reached the adult age, a bull named"Eric", born at Antwerp Zoo and later send to Berlin, where he died to soon....Even Moose die very early in zoos, even today....

Sorry Tarsius, I'm agree with the pro-elephantseal-party. The answer to the question, why zoos do not try (again) keeping elephant seals is not (or not manly) their mortality, it is the lack of space and money. If you have enough of both and if there is a will in the zoomanagement, then suitable exhibits could be done and a selfstanding zoo population could be built.

Remember how many people in the past said, that whale sharks, manta rays, Koalas outside of Australia, leaf-eating primates and so on could not be kept in captivity. And remember that at the beginning of the 19th century common hippos died like flies (don't know if this saying exist in English) during european winter. And now?
Someone has to start. But no question that the start must be well prepared (e.g. not only one but a few zoos as "holding-beginners", exhibits on the newest scientific level, founding group in a good age and male/female relation, space for surplus animals a.s.o.).
If you now say: The cost would be enormous, then I answer: Yes, but we were talking just about the possibility.

zoomaniac said:

Sorry Tarsius, I'm agree with the pro-elephantseal-party. The answer to the question, why zoos do not try (again) keeping elephant seals is not (or not manly) their mortality, it is the lack of space and money. If you have enough of both and if there is a will in the zoomanagement, then suitable exhibits could be done and a selfstanding zoo population could be built.

Remember how many people in the past said, that whale sharks, manta rays, Koalas outside of Australia, leaf-eating primates and so on could not be kept in captivity. And remember that at the beginning of the 19th century common hippos died like flies (don't know if this saying exist in English) during european winter. And now?
Someone has to start. But no question that the start must be well prepared (e.g. not only one but a few zoos as "holding-beginners", exhibits on the newest scientific level, founding group in a good age and male/female relation, space for surplus animals a.s.o.).
If you now say: The cost would be enormous, then I answer: Yes, but we were talking just about the possibility.

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I could not have said it better myself. I shudder to think of what happens to young Elephant Seals that are found injured and cannot be returned to the wild upon treatment. Of course I know they are euthanised, but they could instead become representitives of their species in the many mega-aquariums of today. No one can convince me that places like the Georgia Aquarium and Shedd over in the US plus places like Valencia and the like over in Europe cannot house and care for Elephant Seals as well as they house and care for Belugas, Walruses and other larger marine mammals.

The beluga and walrus pools in the Oceanografic Valencia are awfully small and breeding sucess has been non-existant there as far as I know, so better leave Valencia out of the discussion.

Yassa said:

The beluga and walrus pools in the Oceanografic Valencia are awfully small and breeding sucess has been non-existant there as far as I know, so better leave Valencia out of the discussion.

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I won't protest, never been to Valencia actually, it just popped up in my head as one of the most famous aquariums in Europe at the moment.

@zoomaniac. Do you have any idea, how many whale sharks have died since they are being kept in aquariums ? Many...How many leaf eating primates have died and still dying in zoos ? Too many....Even in zoos of their homelands.....I don't know just one hippo in the 19th century died in the winter, hippos are doing much better in winter times than you may know...Hippos wree not dying like flies in the 19th century, you're wrong.

You don't agree with me, I don't agree with you. I know, many "Zoomanicas" are thinking, every animal species can be kept in a zoo, but they are totally wrong.

Keeping elephant seals in zoos isn't the question of space or money. Even zoos would keep them in the largest pool of the world, it wouldn't working. Most zoos I know, are not longer intersting in keeping elephants seals anymore, because they have regognized, its impossible...Frankfurt fo example. Yes I know, what comes next from you, maybe the scientists of Frankfurt Zoo in that time are just fools.....

By the way, it isn't necessry to keep EVERY animal in a zoo, and you would be surprised, how many "common" species are not doing well in zoos, altough they are being kept since more than 100 years in zoos.....

I think, you don't know very much about the biolgy of elephant seals, do you ?

But to end this debatte, I accept the sad truth of too many so called" Zoofriends" interested only to see in zoos what they want to see, and not interested in the welfare of animals. I know, there are even people who are saying"I'm happy there are zoodirectors like Dr. Blaskiewitz who has not given up to collect animals like stamps"

Sorry, this can't be said of someone who is really intersted in animals. But unfortunately, many people agree with that person, maybe, you too, Zoomaniac ?

So,maybe you should asked the former holders of elephants seals, if they are want to keep them again.

Tarsius said:

I know, there are even people who are saying"I'm happy there are zoodirectors like Dr. Blaskiewitz who has not given up to collect animals like stamps"

Sorry, this can't be said of someone who is really intersted in animals. But unfortunately, many people agree with that person, maybe, you too, Zoomaniac ?

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Guilty as charged! Why? Because Berlin is a proper zoo - a proper two zoos - where the collection of animals is worth seeing. Do those animals suffer? I don't think so. I think most - all? - have a better life in Berlin than they would in the wild. And I fear that when Dr B moves on, Berlin's zoos may become the sort of rather dull, rather empty politically correct establishments we see in the UK.

I respect your opinion Tarsius, and I respect your knowledge. I just don't agree with you!

@sooty mangabey.
Its okay if you're not agree with me, in the case of Berlin, I don't agree with you.

@Tarsius: Hmmh, interesting to hear that of a person who praised Japanese Aquarias with their keeping success with Mantas, Whale Sharks and others...
About the hippos we have obviously different resources. The mine says, that the average hippo age in zoos is much higher after World War II then in the 19th century.

In one point we are agree: It is not NECESSARY to keep every animal in a zoo. But I think it could'nt be bad to collect some experience for the worst case (= a species suddenly become threatened to be extinct and must be safed in zoos).

And I have my doubts, if you are the world greatest Elephant Seals expert either.

But I will take your advice by asking MORE former holders of elephants seals, if they want to start again (if they would have the occasion).

So far I also think that we are agree to be disagree.

By the way: Would'nt it better to come back on a level of respect - like in the past - instead of making assumptions?

@ Zoomaniac.

Don't Worry, I never lost my level of respect...But I have to say, you wrong if you name me The World Greatest Elephant seal expert, I'm only the second in the row.

Where in my posting I have done any assumption ?

Yes, in some japanese aquariums some whale sharks are now living there for several years, so like elephant seals did. But how many of them have died ?

Should we open a new thread for all species, which can't be kept in zoos and Should not be kept ? So let me start with one of my favourite examples-gerenuk. They are still dying like flies, and some zoos have stopped keeping them, altough it was no problem to replace the dead animals. Why ?

But I like the very cute "gerenuk" house, which was designed by some zoofans full of experience in keeping antelopes, especially gerenuks. It was very funny and I was very amused about it....So please send the design to all gerenuk holders, I'm sure, they gonna need the help and advices of private Zoofans....Another example are Pangolins. But as long as enough pangolins are still living in the wild, the zoos have enough more attempts, to keep them alive....Too many of them died ? Who cares, if the Zoofreaks are happy to have seen one alive....

Forget it. It makes no sense to discuss that with people, which are only intersted to see as many rare species as they can, this people call themselfs a Species Collector. A perfect name, which says eevrything...

I wish you many fun with the upcoming Gondwanaland, I promise you, you will find your El Dorado there....