African Elephants in Europe 2021

In the Dutch zoo podcast 'ZooInside' Safaripark Beekse Bergen say they will get a second elephant bull. A new stable is getting build for him at the current stables. The current bull Calimero is not very active with the cows. The only cow he's interested in is Carla, but she's infrertile. Bongi, matriarch Punda's eldest daughter, has come to an age when it is necessary to get pregnant otherwise her cycle is likely to stop. Artificial insemination has been tried a few times but has not been successful so far.
 
MennoPebesma said:
In the Dutch zoo podcast 'ZooInside' Safaripark Beekse Bergen say they will get a second elephant bull. A new stable is getting build for him at the current stables. The current bull Calimero is not very active with the cows. The only cow he's interested in is Carla, but she's infrertile. Bongi, matriarch Punda's eldest daughter, has come to an age when it is necessary to get pregnant otherwise her cycle is likely to stop. Artificial insemination has been tried a few times but has not been successful so far.
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@MennoPebesma I think that Shaka the eldest Bull Elephant at Noah’s Ark
near Bristol, would be the perfect candidate for Beeke Bergen Safari Park. Since residing at Noah’s Shaka has become a social Elephant Bull and is around the same age as the Elephants that already reside at Beekse Bergen. If Shaka moved to Beeske it would free up space for further Elephants to move to Noah’s. If Shaka does move to Beekse I hope that Jambo from Bioparc Valencia can move to Noah’s and join Janu and M’Changa. I say this as both Janu and M’Changa are closer in age to Jambo. @bintarong I know that you are both knowledgeable and interested in Elephants within Europe. @bintarong do you agree that Shaka is suited to Beeske Bergen and that Jambo should move to Noah’s in his place?
 
The Hedgehog said:
@MennoPebesma I think that Shaka the eldest Bull Elephant at Noah’s Ark
near Bristol, would be the perfect candidate for Beeke Bergen Safari Park. Since residing at Noah’s Shaka has become a social Elephant Bull and is around the same age as the Elephants that already reside at Beekse Bergen. If Shaka moved to Beeske it would free up space for further Elephants to move to Noah’s. If Shaka does move to Beekse I hope that Jambo from Bioparc Valencia can move to Noah’s and join Janu and M’Changa. I say this as both Janu and M’Changa are closer in age to Jambo. @bintarong I know that you are both knowledgeable and interested in Elephants within Europe. @bintarong do you agree that Shaka is suited to Beeske Bergen and that Jambo should move to Noah’s in his place?
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Definitely, shaka is perfect breeding age and would really allow jambo to be used for possible breeding purposes. However group dynamics are tricky to work with and could pose an issue. Jambo would have to be isolated first to acclimatise and then slowly introduce but with a small herd like thats its very possible!
 
bintarong said:
Definitely, shaka is perfect breeding age and would really allow jambo to be used for possible breeding purposes. However group dynamics are tricky to work with and could pose an issue. Jambo would have to be isolated first to acclimatise and then slowly introduce but with a small herd like thats its very possible!
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@bintarong do you think that Jambo could possibly move to Beeske Bergen or do you think Shaka is a more likely option?
 
I would suggest to transfer Jambo and Kibo from Lisboa. And to build a second and a third enlosure for bulls.
 
john said:
You are very right! Thanks.
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But Tusker can mate with Punda. Tusker is an proven breeder. And the african elephant group in Europe needs calves. That said Tusker is not that far from Beekse Bergen and not yet in a breeding situation. Besides Tusker can come Jambo and / or Kibo. We don't need to waste time these days.
 
john said:
But Tusker can mate with Punda. Tusker is an proven breeder. And the african elephant group in Europe needs calves. That said Tusker is not that far from Beekse Bergen and not yet in a breeding situation. Besides Tusker can come Jambo and / or Kibo. We don't need to waste time these days.
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The main reason for a new bull in the Beekse Bergen is to breed with Bongi. Since she has reached an age when she must get pregnant, otherwise her cycle will likely stop. So I don't think they're going to get Tusker.

In Ouwehands, where Tusker is now, only one of the cows is still able to breed. Tusker has already done so and the calf is expected at the end of this year.
 
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Here are my thoughts on the situation:

  • Send Kibo from Valencia to Beekse Bergen, while of course retaining Calimero as well
  • Send Jambo to Cabarceno from Valencia
  • Send Jums and Junmar from Cabarceno to Valencia
  • Retain Shaka at Noahs Ark, for now
View below for explanation:

  • Personally, I REALLY want Shaka in a breeding situation. He is a founder with no offspring, and is an absolutely stunning bull to boot. However that said, I would be reluctant to send him to Beekse Bergen myself, at least at this point in time. His attempts as a breeding bull in Vienna sadly failed, and while it sounds like the issues were more with the cows than Shaka, its still something to take into consideration. I do want him in a breeding situation, but I'm not sure where, at the moment.
  • I think Kibo from Valencia would actually be an excellent fit for Beekse Bergen! He is still fairly genetically valuable (only 7 living descendants), is a proven bull with two different cows, and moreover, the fact that he is a fully mature, confident bull could factor in well to helping stimulate Calimero to breed.
  • Jambo from Valencia? No. He is not a bull to use when time of of the essence to get a cow pregnant. He is still on the younger side, and not proven. I agree though, a move might be good for him. Going to Cabarceno, he could meet bull Yambo, who is similar in age (aka a good sparring partner), plus a number of younger bulls as well. Large open enclosure, lots of receptive cows, all the good stuff. Maybe he could finally fill out there and become a proper breeding bull.
  • Jums and Junmar are a very successful duo, they seem to get on well with each other, are both well proven breeding bulls, and not particularly genetically valuable. Sending them to Valencia is an ideal choice. Best case scenario? They get their cows breeding and it's great. Worse case? Valencia still has the two bulls it seems to want, and even if they never breed again, there is no loss of genetic value since Jums has so many offspring already.

Also leave Tusker at Ouwehands. Yes, he is an excellent breeder, but like Menno said, there is no real sense in sending him to Beekse Bergen, since he should not be breeding with his daughters. Given how many male offspring he already has (and they are starting to become proven breeders themselves), I personally would relegate tusker to use as a "saviour bull", bouncing from facility to facility with cows that NEED to get bred urgently for whatever reason. Tusker is the perfect bull for that. He is already well represented, so its no real loss if things don't work out, he's a social, easy going bull, and very, very experienced with natural breeding. The perfect bull for that sort of situation.
 
Hyak_II said:
Here are my thoughts on the situation:

  • Send Kibo from Valencia to Beekse Bergen, while of course retaining Calimero as well
  • Send Jambo to Cabarceno from Valencia
  • Send Jums and Junmar from Cabarceno to Valencia
  • Retain Shaka at Noahs Ark, for now
View below for explanation:

  • Personally, I REALLY want Shaka in a breeding situation. He is a founder with no offspring, and is an absolutely stunning bull to boot. However that said, I would be reluctant to send him to Beekse Bergen myself, at least at this point in time. His attempts as a breeding bull in Vienna sadly failed, and while it sounds like the issues were more with the cows than Shaka, its still something to take into consideration. I do want him in a breeding situation, but I'm not sure where, at the moment.
  • I think Kibo from Valencia would actually be an excellent fit for Beekse Bergen! He is still fairly genetically valuable (only 7 living descendants), is a proven bull with two different cows, and moreover, the fact that he is a fully mature, confident bull could factor in well to helping stimulate Calimero to breed.
  • Jambo from Valencia? No. He is not a bull to use when time of of the essence to get a cow pregnant. He is still on the younger side, and not proven. I agree though, a move might be good for him. Going to Cabarceno, he could meet bull Yambo, who is similar in age (aka a good sparring partner), plus a number of younger bulls as well. Large open enclosure, lots of receptive cows, all the good stuff. Maybe he could finally fill out there and become a proper breeding bull.
  • Jums and Junmar are a very successful duo, they seem to get on well with each other, are both well proven breeding bulls, and not particularly genetically valuable. Sending them to Valencia is an ideal choice. Best case scenario? They get their cows breeding and it's great. Worse case? Valencia still has the two bulls it seems to want, and even if they never breed again, there is no loss of genetic value since Jums has so many offspring already.
Also leave Tusker at Ouwehands. Yes, he is an excellent breeder, but like Menno said, there is no real sense in sending him to Beekse Bergen, since he should not be breeding with his daughters. Given how many male offspring he already has (and they are starting to become proven breeders themselves), I personally would relegate tusker to use as a "saviour bull", bouncing from facility to facility with cows that NEED to get bred urgently for whatever reason. Tusker is the perfect bull for that. He is already well represented, so its no real loss if things don't work out, he's a social, easy going bull, and very, very experienced with natural breeding. The perfect bull for that sort of situation.
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Thanks for reply!
 
Hyak_II said:
Here are my thoughts on the situation:

  • Send Kibo from Valencia to Beekse Bergen, while of course retaining Calimero as well
  • Send Jambo to Cabarceno from Valencia
  • Send Jums and Junmar from Cabarceno to Valencia
  • Retain Shaka at Noahs Ark, for now
View below for explanation:

  • Personally, I REALLY want Shaka in a breeding situation. He is a founder with no offspring, and is an absolutely stunning bull to boot. However that said, I would be reluctant to send him to Beekse Bergen myself, at least at this point in time. His attempts as a breeding bull in Vienna sadly failed, and while it sounds like the issues were more with the cows than Shaka, its still something to take into consideration. I do want him in a breeding situation, but I'm not sure where, at the moment.
  • I think Kibo from Valencia would actually be an excellent fit for Beekse Bergen! He is still fairly genetically valuable (only 7 living descendants), is a proven bull with two different cows, and moreover, the fact that he is a fully mature, confident bull could factor in well to helping stimulate Calimero to breed.
  • Jambo from Valencia? No. He is not a bull to use when time of of the essence to get a cow pregnant. He is still on the younger side, and not proven. I agree though, a move might be good for him. Going to Cabarceno, he could meet bull Yambo, who is similar in age (aka a good sparring partner), plus a number of younger bulls as well. Large open enclosure, lots of receptive cows, all the good stuff. Maybe he could finally fill out there and become a proper breeding bull.
  • Jums and Junmar are a very successful duo, they seem to get on well with each other, are both well proven breeding bulls, and not particularly genetically valuable. Sending them to Valencia is an ideal choice. Best case scenario? They get their cows breeding and it's great. Worse case? Valencia still has the two bulls it seems to want, and even if they never breed again, there is no loss of genetic value since Jums has so many offspring already.
Also leave Tusker at Ouwehands. Yes, he is an excellent breeder, but like Menno said, there is no real sense in sending him to Beekse Bergen, since he should not be breeding with his daughters. Given how many male offspring he already has (and they are starting to become proven breeders themselves), I personally would relegate tusker to use as a "saviour bull", bouncing from facility to facility with cows that NEED to get bred urgently for whatever reason. Tusker is the perfect bull for that. He is already well represented, so its no real loss if things don't work out, he's a social, easy going bull, and very, very experienced with natural breeding. The perfect bull for that sort of situation.
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I agree with your opinion. I'm just not sure if Kibo is really a very good bull at his age. After all, it is the oldest African bull in Europe. He mated with cows in Valencia, but they did not become pregnant. I know he's not that old, but I'm not sure.
I think a good choice to move to Beeks Bergen would also be Coco from Howletts. I've heard some rumors that they want to move him. Kando from Magdeburg would not have to be bad either, he is young, but he lived for a long time with his father, who is a very good bull.
 
Elephantelephant said:
I agree with your opinion. I'm just not sure if Kibo is really a very good bull at his age. After all, it is the oldest African bull in Europe. He mated with cows in Valencia, but they did not become pregnant. I know he's not that old, but I'm not sure.
I think a good choice to move to Beeks Bergen would also be Coco from Howletts. I've heard some rumors that they want to move him. Kando from Magdeburg would not have to be bad either, he is young, but he lived for a long time with his father, who is a very good bull.
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Coco would definitely be a good option as well, he knows what to do!

Also Kibo is older, yes, but I wouldn't worry about. Old bulls sire calves just fine, so long as they can still physically mount the cows. Especially with the Valencia situation, that seems to be the cows, not the bulls have trouble.

Kando would also be nice, but the same issue, younger and unproven. Honestly there are a few males like that in Europe. (Kando, Bou Bou, Tamo, M'Changa, Jumanne, and more). All either in bachelor holding or just placed in breeding situations. In my mind they are tricky ones to deal with, as obviously they need to get experience with the cows start breeding, but given how the situation is with Africans in Europe right now, I think the best bets are to send them to places like Howletts and Cabarceno, with lots of younger, but experienced cows. Even if it's only for a few or two, it could serve as an excellent learning experience for these young bulls before moving to more diverse breeding situations (older dominant cows, virgin cows, etc...).
 
I think the Valencia and Lisboa elephant situations require parts of the female herds to be disbanded and redistributed elsewhere too along matrilineal lines. I believe someone cited at Valencia Bioparco that one of the matriarch cows may be suppressing the females.

Both the Valencia and Lisboa female transfers need to be effected in a more A.S.A.P. mode in order to get part or not represented female and reproductively sound cows to reproduce.
 
Kifaru Bwana said:
I think the Valencia and Lisboa elephant situations require parts of the female herds to be disbanded and redistributed elsewhere too along matrilineal lines. I believe someone cited at Valencia Bioparco that one of the matriarch cows may be suppressing the females.

Both the Valencia and Lisboa female transfers need to be effected in a more A.S.A.P. mode in order to get part or not represented female and reproductively sound cows to reproduce.
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Lisboa:
I think there's a problem with the bull. I heard somewhere that it took a long time before he even mated, but I don't know if he mates regularly. In addition, it is possible that Luna, Jane and Nina are already infertile. But I hope not. Also a house with exhibit is not good so it can also have some effect on reproduction.

Valencia:
The big problem is that the cows did not split. As far as I know, the capacities of the indoor equipment are on the edge, if not beyond the edge. It is possible that Kibo is old, but it is not certain. Matla leader cow can cause a problem. She will not allow Jambo to join others and can cause a restless situation in the group. Jambo is therefore separated from cows. I don't think Matla is bad, but it's not good to have so many cows of almost the same age together. Matla must therefore be very dominant in order to maintain her leading position. They were to divide the herd in two.
 
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