Twycross Zoo Are breeding pairs a requirement?

J C

J C

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{Note from mods - posts in this thread split from here: Twycross Zoo - Twycross Zoo News 2019}


Another thing they mentioned at the weekend and I don't know if anybody else can shed light on this was, when my youngest lad asked if they would ever have elephants back, they replied it would be very unlikely at the present as they would have to be able to hold a bull to do so almost as if this a requirement now to be able to hold the species. Was wondering if this was now a standard practice on all endangered / species and this was why they seam to have shifted to breeding pairs of animals tigers, rhino rather than there more previous moves of all males / female groups. Is this there choice or is there hand being forced to incourage breeding programs if they are to receive these species
 
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J C said:
Another thing they mentioned at the weekend and I don't know if anybody else can shed light on this was, when my youngest lad asked if they would ever have elephants back, they replied it would be very unlikely at the present as they would have to be able to hold a bull to do so almost as if this a requirement now to be able to hold the species. Was wondering if this was now a standard practice on all endangered / species and this was why they seam to have shifted to breeding pairs of animals tigers, rhino rather than there more previous moves of all males / female groups. Is this there choice or is there hand being forced to incourage breeding programs if they are to receive these species
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I don't believe is it a requirement - but it is the 'correct' thing to do and I think they have just come to that conclusion themselves.
 
J C said:
Another thing they mentioned at the weekend and I don't know if anybody else can shed light on this was, when my youngest lad asked if they would ever have elephants back, they replied it would be very unlikely at the present as they would have to be able to hold a bull to do so almost as if this a requirement now to be able to hold the species. Was wondering if this was now a standard practice on all endangered / species and this was why they seam to have shifted to breeding pairs of animals tigers, rhino rather than there more previous moves of all males / female groups. Is this there choice or is there hand being forced to incourage breeding programs if they are to receive these species
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Specifically regarding elephants:
The Secretary of State's Standards of Modern Zoo Practice (Appendix 8 - Specialist Exhibits, Elephants) (2017):
8.8.2 All elephant holding institutions must produce a documented Long Term Management Plan (LTMP) for the elephant collection and an Individual Welfare Plan for each elephant (WP).
Long Term Management Plan (LTMP)
8.8.3 It is recognised that zoo masterplans are generally designed to cover a 10 - 15 year time-frame and thus will not cover the expected lifespan of elephants. The LTMP should aim to cover at least 30 years and account for necessary flexibility needed when keeping and/or breeding elephants. It must cover the following:
  • Purpose of collection; e.g. breeding herd, bachelor group, retirement facility for non-breeding animals (side note #1: Twycross would come under breeding herd as they have bred their animals before and do not meet the criteria for bachelor group (all males) or non-breeding animals (I think all their elephants are reproductively viable?)
  • Herd compatibility details
  • Financial provision for animal care (side note #2: Twycross themselves admitted they do not have the funds to make the necessary arrangements to house a bull elephant)
  • Long term enclosure development planning
  • Management systems adopted
  • Elephant training programme
  • Staff training programme
  • Zoo management structure relative to elephants
  • Exit strategy should the collection choose to no longer hold elephants (side note #3: This is probably the most important as this means making sure there is somewhere for the elephants to go should Twycross no longer want/be able to hold elephants. Not many facilities these days are able or ready to take in a whole herd of elephants, they 'hit the jackpot' so to speak with Blackpool who were looking to acquire more elephants whilst only having one individual already as it is much easier to introduce one animal to an established herd then it is to try and mix two unrelated herds together.)
 
Not sure what this is meant to prove? Twycross elephants have gone from being a 'breeding' herd without bull to a 'potential' breeding herd with no bull likely to appear soon! Not much difference for the foreseeable future !!
 
katinakalinakaterina said:
Specifically regarding elephants:
The Secretary of State's Standards of Modern Zoo Practice (Appendix 8 - Specialist Exhibits, Elephants) (2017):
8.8.2 All elephant holding institutions must produce a documented Long Term Management Plan (LTMP) for the elephant collection and an Individual Welfare Plan for each elephant (WP).
Long Term Management Plan (LTMP)
8.8.3 It is recognised that zoo masterplans are generally designed to cover a 10 - 15 year time-frame and thus will not cover the expected lifespan of elephants. The LTMP should aim to cover at least 30 years and account for necessary flexibility needed when keeping and/or breeding elephants. It must cover the following:
  • Purpose of collection; e.g. breeding herd, bachelor group, retirement facility for non-breeding animals (side note #1: Twycross would come under breeding herd as they have bred their animals before and do not meet the criteria for bachelor group (all males) or non-breeding animals (I think all their elephants are reproductively viable?)
  • Herd compatibility details
  • Financial provision for animal care (side note #2: Twycross themselves admitted they do not have the funds to make the necessary arrangements to house a bull elephant)
  • Long term enclosure development planning
  • Management systems adopted
  • Elephant training programme
  • Staff training programme
  • Zoo management structure relative to elephants
  • Exit strategy should the collection choose to no longer hold elephants (side note #3: This is probably the most important as this means making sure there is somewhere for the elephants to go should Twycross no longer want/be able to hold elephants. Not many facilities these days are able or ready to take in a whole herd of elephants, they 'hit the jackpot' so to speak with Blackpool who were looking to acquire more elephants whilst only having one individual already as it is much easier to introduce one animal to an established herd then it is to try and mix two unrelated herds together.)
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This sounds like it might be for the US rather than the UK (Secretary of State rather than Home Secretary).
 
FunkyGibbon said:
This sounds like it might be for the US rather than the UK (Secretary of State rather than Home Secretary).
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No it's UK, put together by DEFRA ;)
Secretary of State’s standards of modern zoo practice
I can't link the actual document as its a PDF file but if you search it you'll find it. It's worth a read as gives guidelines for different aspects of keeping elephants, only downside is that it is for all elephants (African and Asian) and there aren't any species specific sections it's fairly generic.
 
pipaluk said:
Not sure what this is meant to prove? Twycross elephants have gone from being a 'breeding' herd without bull to a 'potential' breeding herd with no bull likely to appear soon! Not much difference for the foreseeable future !!
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It's more the idea that Blackpool is in a position to hold a bull elephant (more so than Twycross is/was). I think they are actively seeking a bull but just waiting on the studbook to find them a suitable one that they can move in, that or they are allowing Kate to fully integrate with the herd (she has been on her own for a fair while and apparently is a fairly dominant elephant which may cause friction with Minbu, the matriarch of Twycross's herd) and for the social dynamics to settle before bringing a bull in as I'm sure that will shake things up! Also the final two elephants arrived in August last year so they have only been a full established group of five for 7 months.

From Blackpool Zoo's Website:
Project Elephant Base Camp was built to house a breeding herd of Asian Elephants, and while our herd is currently an all female group, we are working with the EEP to bring an adult male elephant (known as a bull) to Blackpool. The introduction of a bull will provide the herd with stability and a sense of calm, as well as being a future father to any of the herd's offspring.

We are currently in discussions with the EEP (European Endangered Species Programmes) Coordinator to find a bull who is a suitable match for our breeding females in both genetics and temperament.
 
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FunkyGibbon said:
Turns out his full title is Secretary of State for the Home Department. Every day is a learning day!
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No, that's the Home Secretary. Zoo licensing comes under the Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra). The title Secretary of State indicates that the person in charge is a Cabinet Minister (M Gove, to be precise). The junior ministers in each department are called Ministers of State and Parliamentary Under Secretaries of State. Their mugshots are discreetly hidden near the bottom of this page about Defra.
Department for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs
 
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katinakalinakaterina said:
We are currently in discussions with the EEP (European Endangered Species Programmes) Coordinator to find a bull who is a suitable match for our breeding females in both genetics and temperament.
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I was at Blackpool a couple of weeks ago and asked about this...whether or not they can integrate Kate with the others( they are probably trying again at present) they have the facility to hold a bull as well, even if it will be a bit less easy, after all that is why EEP sent the Twycross females there. As to the 'genetics and temperament' business, it just gives them more time for the inevitable delays that these sorts of moves involve. They will only find out how his 'temperament' suits the females after he's been transferred, so that bit is rather meaningless I often think.
 
Pertinax said:
I was at Blackpool a couple of weeks ago and asked about this...whether or not they can integrate Kate with the others( they are probably trying again at present) they have the facility to hold a bull as well, even if it will be a bit less easy, after all that is why EEP sent the Twycross females there. As to the 'genetics and temperament' business, it just gives them more time for the inevitable delays that these sorts of moves involve. They will only find out how his 'temperament' suits the females after he's been transferred, so that bit is rather meaningless I often think.
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Are they able to have any input on the bull they will, hopefully, eventually receive? If it is recommended that they import a bull that is known to be aggressive or temperamental are they able to refuse? I imagine they wouldn't want a very 'out there' male if they have 'shy' females that are unlikely to put him in his place as this would lead to an unstable social group/hierarchy. Although this doesn't seem like a problem as it looks like Minbu is a fairly dominant matriarch. I am not sure how the integrations of Kate with the rest of the herd are going, I think they showed a video of Kate interacting with Tara? when she arrived and maybe a video of Kate and Minbu sizing each other up, beyond that I have no idea how the social dynamics are taking shape.
 
katinakalinakaterina said:
Are they able to have any input on the bull they will, hopefully, eventually receive? If it is recommended that they import a bull that is known to be aggressive or temperamental are they able to refuse? I imagine they wouldn't want a very 'out there' male if they have 'shy' females that are unlikely to put him in his place as this would lead to an unstable social group/hierarchy. Although this doesn't seem like a problem as it looks like Minbu is a fairly dominant matriarch. I am not sure how the integrations of Kate with the rest of the herd are going, I think they showed a video of Kate interacting with Tara? when she arrived and maybe a video of Kate and Minbu sizing each other up, beyond that I have no idea how the social dynamics are taking shape.
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I think what happens is EEP select a bull principally on genetic grounds, and as long as he has no bad past 'history' then the zoo are pretty much obliged to accept him. Twycross females have no recent/previous experience of a bull so how they would react to any individual is a completely unknown quantity until after it arrives.

Kate- she was fine with the first two, but did not get on well with all four females together, principally the calf 'Esha'(no experience of calves) and has since been seperated completely. But they were going to start another attempt with introductions, by partitioning the large indoor sanded area between her and the others, to begin with.
 
Pertinax said:
I think what happens is EEP select a bull principally on genetic grounds, and as long as he has no bad past 'history' then the zoo are pretty much obliged to accept him. Twycross females have no recent/previous experience of a bull so how they would react to any individual is a completely unknown quantity until after it arrives.

Kate- she was fine with the first two, but did not get on well with all four females together, principally the calf 'Esha'(no experience of calves) and has since been seperated completely. But they were going to start another attempt with introductions, by partitioning the large indoor sanded area between her and the others, to begin with.
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Ah, I didn't realise she had no experience with calves, I've only seen her twice, a fair time ago with Indra and just after Indra died. I, wrongly, assumed the problems were with Minbu due to both being dominant females.
 
katinakalinakaterina said:
Ah, I didn't realise she had no experience with calves, I've only seen her twice, a fair time ago with Indra and just after Indra died. I, wrongly, assumed the problems were with Minbu due to both being dominant females.
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I had thought it was that too, in fact it may also be an issue, but the keeper said the main problem was her non-acceptance(so far) of Esha who is very boisterous.
 
It was to be expected that it would be a big problem to integrate Kate with the Twycross elephants. Older cows are notoriously hard to mix with unrelated female elephants. The problems multiply if you try to integrate one old female with a whole established groupe like the four from Twycross. In similar situations in the past it has usually not even been tried - the older, non-breeding female(s) are usually sent to another zoo which holds only non-breeding females. The best outcome that I expect for Kate are that she can spend some time with Tara and maybe Minbu so that she isn‘t all isolated, but will never be mixed full time with all four.

By the way, the EEP only requires a bull for zoos which hold female elephants in breeding age. Of course a zoo can decide to hold non-breeding females if they have no money or space for bull facilities. I wish Twycross had opted for such a retirement group of older females- the elephant enclosure is of dezent size, and holders for older females are needed. Most zoos that keep older females have facilities that are much smaller then Twycross‘. Twycross would have been a much better option for some of them.
 
Yassa said:
By the way, the EEP only requires a bull for zoos which hold female elephants in breeding age. Of course a zoo can decide to hold non-breeding females if they have no money or space for bull facilities. I wish Twycross had opted for such a retirement group of older females- the elephant enclosure is of dezent size, and holders for older females are needed. Most zoos that keep older females have facilities that are much smaller then Twycross‘. Twycross would have been a much better option for some of them.
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Perhaps they wanted the enclosure filled rather quickly as they had closed off the entire area when the elephants left. It could take a while to obtain a herd of older females and it would have been quicker to modify the enclosure for rhinos and get them there in time for school holidays so they don't lose visitors. I imagine numbers dropped when the elephants left as they are a fairly big draw these days as not many zoos hold them. Rhinos are probably up there on the list of animals people want to see, especially kids, it's quite funny when they run to see the 'unicorns'.
 
Yassa said:
I wish Twycross had opted for such a retirement group of older females- the elephant enclosure is of dezent size, and holders for older females are needed. Most zoos that keep older females have facilities that are much smaller then Twycross‘. Twycross would have been a much better option for some of them.
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True. I wonder though how much the zoo's recent negative experiences with the elephants influenced their decision to move away from holding them. There was the several failed attempts at artificial insemination, the two young calf deaths and the incident with a keeper abusing the elephants. Taking a break from holding them is probably sensible.
 
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