European (Tea)Cup - HEAD-TO-HEAD: Chester vs Prague (CARNIVORES)

[TeaLovingDave]

As the title suggests, this one will focus on the CARNIVORES category - as previously, the match will last for three days and although discussion of your reasoning and provision of supplementary evidence is not mandatory (except in cases of a 5:0 vote) it *is* very much encouraged.

Moreover, even if one does not feel comfortable voting, please do ask questions, post comments relating to your opinions on the evidence presented, and generally-speaking get involved in the wider discussion!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Now, this should be a very interesting match indeed, as it represents a rematch between these two collections in the category which saw Prague drop out of the competition in the semi-finals stage of the 2019 ZooChat Cup; a match which was not only the closest in Cup history, but also the one which saw the highest number of overall votes - an astonishing 45 individuals took part!

Zoochat Cup Group H: Chester vs Prague

As such, it will be interesting to see how things have changed at the two collections in the intervening years, whether anyone has changed their views on the matter, and whether this match ends up as close as the last one even if it is probably too much to hope for a significant boost in votecount!

 

[amur leopard]

That thread makes for a tough re-read... .

Well for starters Prague still has the biggest issue it had during that match.
To be honest, I don't think much has changed. The cheetahs are gone at Chester, Javan leopards at Prague, and nothing much new from either in the interim (Pallas's cats at Prague, and I think foxes in HOA, probably meerkats/mongoose too?). Either way, narrow 3-2 to Chester for me.

 

[merlin]

That thread makes for a tough re-read... .

Well for starters Prague still has the biggest issue it had during that match.
To be honest, I don't think much has changed. The cheetahs are gone at Chester, Javan leopards at Prague, and nothing much new from either in the interim (Pallas's cats at Prague, and I think foxes in HOA, probably meerkats/mongoose too?). Either way, narrow 3-2 to Chester for me.

Prague now keeps fossas. Also, Amur tigers and Amur leopards are gone, as there are plans on building a new exhibit for the tigers. The last clouded leopard has passed away, Philippine palm civets are gone, South American coatis are gone. Same with northern raccoons and caracals.

 

[Père Damian's Deer]

Prague now keeps fossas. Also, Amur tigers and Amur leopards are gone, as there are plans on building a new exhibit for the tigers. The last clouded leopard has passed away, Philippine palm civets are gone, South American coatis are gone. Same with northern raccoons and caracals.

Is the Caracal listed on zootierliste not there anymore?

 

[merlin]

Is the Caracal listed on zootierliste not there anymore?

If so, he is being kept off-show.

 

[Kalaw]

I don't like oversimplifying these cup threads to a matter of quality versus quantity, but this is a quintessential example of that.

29 onshow taxa at Prague versus just 14 at Chester. But in terms of exhibitry, Chester has some of the outright best carnivore enclosures in Europe, whereas Prague is consistently in the 'slightly above average' ballpark with the exception of the atrocious Polar Bear grotto which weighs it down even further. Really, the only carnivore enclosures at Prague which can actually compare to the best of Chester are the hyenas and the coatis, but even those fall short.

I tend to prioritise quality over quantity when the margins in numbers are narrow, but it's slightly different here as the carnivore collection at Chester is so thin that it will leave someone who loves the order as much as myself yearning for more. No interesting smaller taxa, with the closest being Fossa and Bush Dog which Prague also have, and no pinnipeds (vontsiras are offshow and don't count). Prague, on the other hand, has Brown Hyena, which could very possibly be worth a point by themselves, plus Tayra, NARO, Jaguarundi, Honey Badger, White-nosed Coati, Pallas' Cat, Amur and Palawan Leopard Cats, Geoffroy's Cat and Cape Fur Seal. Then again, Chester does have the luxury of two bear species (neither as spectacular as Polars, mind you) and more big cats.

I also would say that the enclosure standard at Prague for carnivores isn't as bad as some make it seem; indeed, that was one of the biggest takeaways from my visit last year, having read about how supposedly poor they were throughout this forum (including in the previous iteration of this match), and they really exceeded my expectations. I won't even bother defending the Polar Bear enclosures as its shocking, but beyond that, only the all-indoor Palawan Leopard Cat enclosure and the bare Asiatic Lion island (which isn't even bad for a single elderly male) actually disappoint me. Yes, the indoor areas in the Feline & Reptile Pavilion are sterile and bathroom-like, but the outdoors are mostly good, and all three of Geoffroy's Cats, Amur Leopard Cats and especially Fishing Cats have some of the best small cat enclosures that I know of - though I haven't seen it since the Fossas moved in, I think theirs is really good too. The adjacent Cheetah enclosure is top-notch, as is the Pallas' Cat enclosure elsewhere; as far as small cats go, only Jaguarundis get the short end of the stick. Cape Fur Seals have a huge pool (a bit ugly but great for the animals), there is a brilliant Red Panda enclosure, and a world-class Brown Hyena space. One of the better wolf enclosures I've seen, too.

This is the closest to a 50/50 so far in this head-to-head for me. Even if I don't try to objectively analyse it and rather judge purely on personal enjoyment, it's very hard to distinguish; what did I love more, my two days in 'Spirit of the Jaguar' with Goshi and Napo, or my first Brown Hyena? It really is too close to call. I'm learning towards 3-2 Prague for now but will mull over it this evening and potentially switch. I really can't complain that Chester is winning right now; their Jaguar House is one of my all-time favourite zoo exhibits.

 

[cornu aspersum]

No interesting smaller taxa, with the closest being Fossa and Bush Dog which Prague also have, and no pinnipeds (vontsiras are offshow and don't count).

Are the bokiboky also off-show? And what about the giant otters, which from what I've heard, are kept in a very good enclosure? Bat-eared foxes and Palawan binturong should also count.

 

[Kalaw]

Are the bokiboky also off-show? And what about the giant otters, which from what I've heard, are kept in a very good enclosure? Bat-eared foxes and Palawan binturong should also count.

Bokies were included under 'vontsiras,' and yes, they should be offshow unless something has changed with HoA. Bat-eared Foxes and Palawan Binturongs are nice but both kept at Prague as well. The Giant Otter would certainly qualify as an 'interesting smaller species' for me, not sure how I forgot them as I was considering their enclosure as one of Chester's strengths.

While I'm at it, I'll say that the binturong enclosure at Prague is another strength I forgot to mention. It isn't as big as Chester's where they're mixed with the sun bears, but as a result of the enclosure very clearly being designed with the bears in mind, the binties would have to spend a lot of time on the ground to get between the climbing apparatus, which I find a bit disappointing for a species which rarely goes on the ground if possible. As far as purpose-built binturong enclosures go, the only one I've seen bigger than Prague's is Dresden's. A bit concrete-heavy, but very good as far as I'm concerned.

 

[merlin]

I don't like oversimplifying these cup threads to a matter of quality versus quantity, but this is a quintessential example of that.

29 onshow taxa at Prague versus just 14 at Chester. But in terms of exhibitry, Chester has some of the outright best carnivore enclosures in Europe, whereas Prague is consistently in the 'slightly above average' ballpark with the exception of the atrocious Polar Bear grotto which weighs it down even further. Really, the only carnivore enclosures at Prague which can actually compare to the best of Chester are the hyenas and the coatis, but even those fall short.

I tend to prioritise quality over quantity when the margins in numbers are narrow, but it's slightly different here as the carnivore collection at Chester is so thin that it will leave someone who loves the order as much as myself yearning for more. No interesting smaller taxa, with the closest being Fossa and Bush Dog which Prague also have, and no pinnipeds (vontsiras are offshow and don't count). Prague, on the other hand, has Brown Hyena, which could very possibly be worth a point by themselves, plus Tayra, NARO, Jaguarundi, Honey Badger, White-nosed Coati, Pallas' Cat, Amur and Palawan Leopard Cats, Geoffroy's Cat and Cape Fur Seal. Then again, Chester does have the luxury of two bear species (neither as spectacular as Polars, mind you) and more big cats.
I also would say that the enclosure standard at Prague for carnivores isn't as bad as some make it seem; indeed, that was one of the biggest takeaways from my visit last year, having read about how supposedly poor they were throughout this forum (including in the previous iteration of this match), and they really exceeded my expectations. I won't even bother defending the Polar Bear enclosures as its shocking, but beyond that, only the all-indoor Palawan Leopard Cat enclosure and the bare Asiatic Lion island (which isn't even bad for a single elderly male) actually disappoint me. Yes, the indoor areas in the Feline & Reptile Pavilion are sterile and bathroom-like, but the outdoors are mostly good, and all three of Geoffroy's Cats, Amur Leopard Cats and especially Fishing Cats have some of the best small cat enclosures that I know of - though I haven't seen it since the Fossas moved in, I think theirs is really good too. The adjacent Cheetah enclosure is top-notch, as is the Pallas' Cat enclosure elsewhere; as far as small cats go, only Jaguarundis get the short end of the stick. Cape Fur Seals have a huge pool (a bit ugly but great for the animals), there is a brilliant Red Panda enclosure, and a world-class Brown Hyena space. One of the better wolf enclosures I've seen, too.
This is the closest to a 50/50 so far in this head-to-head for me. Even if I don't try to objectively analyse it and rather judge purely on personal enjoyment, it's very hard to distinguish; what did I love more, my two days in 'Spirit of the Jaguar' with Goshi and Napo, or my first Brown Hyena? It really is too close to call. I'm learning towards 3-2 Prague for now but will mull over it this evening and potentially switch. I really can't complain that Chester is winning right now; their Jaguar House is one of my all-time favourite zoo exhibits.

I'm sorry, but... is this supposed to be a ragebait...? It would make sense for someone like me, who has yet to visit Chester, to write down the list of species only for Prague, but as you've visited both, it would be fair to be more specific with Chester. Especially if you decide to even mention species like the white-nosed coatis, which are very common zoo animals. Although yes, their exhibit in Prague is really nice.

Then again, Chester does have the luxury of two bear species (neither as spectacular as Polars, mind you) and more big cats.

It is worth mentioning that polar bears may be spectacular in size, but their exhibit truly is horrible. And the two bear species kept in Chester are both actually more rare than polar bears! At least in Europe.
Chester currently has four big cat species, yes - snow leopard, jaguar, Asiatic lion (so does Prague and thus we can compare their exhibits one to one) and Sumatran tiger (same as lions). Again, it would've been fair to list them.

Yes, the indoor areas in the Feline & Reptile Pavilion are sterile and bathroom-like

The indoors in the carnivore house are sterile, but not bathroom-like. There are no tiles or anything of that sort.

 

[merlin]

Are the bokiboky also off-show? And what about the giant otters, which from what I've heard, are kept in a very good enclosure? Bat-eared foxes and Palawan binturong should also count.

Considering how big giant otters are, African wild dogs could also entry this category

 

[cornu aspersum]

Bat-eared Foxes and Palawan Binturongs are nice but both kept at Prague as well.

Not to be too pedantic, but that means that Chester does have interesting small carnivores, in addition to fossas and bush dogs. Not as much as Prague, of course.

Considering how big giant otters are, African wild dogs could also entry this category

I don't exactly know when a small carnivore stops being small, but Kalaw included fur seals and brown hyaenas when talking about small carnivores in Prague, so I figured these should count .

 

[merlin]

List of species that both zoos have:
bush dog
meerkat
bat-eared fox
Palawan binturong
Asiatic lion
Sumatran tiger
dwarf mongoose
Nepalese red panda
fossa
yellow mongoose

Unique to Chester:
sun bear
spectacled bear
African wild dog
Asian small-clawed otter
giant otter
snow leopard
jaguar
(Scottish wildcat, northern narrow-striped boky and Grandidier's vontsira kept off-show)

Unique to Prague:
fishing cat
maned wolf
brown hyena
polar bear
Malayan tiger
tayra
jaguarundi
Geoffroy's cat
Amur leopard cat
Palawan leopard cat
Cape fur seal
Central African ratel
Eurasian wolf
fennec fox
Indochinese smooth-coated otter
North American river otter
Pallas' cat
Cheetah
white-nosed coati

Please, correct me if I made any mistakes (which is very much possible)!

 

[Kalaw]

I'm sorry, but... is this supposed to be a ragebait...? It would make sense for someone like me, who has yet to visit Chester, to write down the list of species only for Prague, but as you've visited both, it would be fair to be more specific with Chester. Especially if you decide to even mention species like the white-nosed coatis, which are very common zoo animals. Although yes, their exhibit in Prague is really nice.

At what point did I claim that I was attempting to provide a species list?! I didn't. I was trying to prove a point that for a lover of small carnivores such as myself, Prague has a far more appealing collection. If you believe that statement is untrue, then prove me wrong but nothing I said was incorrect bar my accidental omission of the Giant Otters, simply by virtue of forgetfulness! White-nosed Coatis are very rare in the UK, so I assumed it was the same on the continent, but having just checked ZTL I recognise I was mistaken here; still a more interesting alternative to the more widespread Ring-tailed. I then proceeded to list some of the enclosures I enjoyed at Prague to prove my point that the enclosures there isn't as bad as people make them out to be. I wasn't trying to convince anyone to switch their vote in favour of Prague because this is a 50/50, or as good as; my above post was nothing more than an explanation of why I placed my vote in Prague's favour for the time being, hence why I naturally focused on the Czech collection; I have no idea what it was that made you think I was ragebaiting, and I think it's odd to accuse me of that just because I didn't provide a species list.

It is worth mentioning that polar bears may be spectacular in size, but their exhibit truly is horrible. And the two bear species kept in Chester are both actually more rare than polar bears! At least in Europe.
Chester currently has four big cat species, yes - snow leopard, jaguar, Asiatic lion (so does Prague and thus we can compare their exhibits one to one) and Sumatran tiger (same as lions). Again, it would've been fair to list them.

I know the Polar Bear enclosure is bad. I said that later. I also know Spectacled and Sun Bears are rarer in captivity (though again, not in the UK); I wasn't talking about their rarity though, merely how impressive they are. Again, I really don't see why you're criticising the fact that I didn't list Chester's big cats; I never claimed to be providing any sort of list, and I didn't list Prague's either. I made the (again, factually correct) point that Chester has more big cat species and left it there.

I don't exactly know when a small carnivore stops being small, but Kalaw included fur seals and brown hyaenas when talking about small carnivores in Prague, so I figured these should count .

I only mentioned the fur seals to build on another one of my previous points, that being the lack of pinnipeds at Chester. Of course they are not small. But I will give it to you that the hyenas may have been pushing the limits of 'small.'

 

[merlin]

At what point did I claim that I was attempting to provide a species list?!

You did not, but you've mentioned plenty of Prague's species, so I thought it would be fair to give Chester some credits too, as something like "two bear species" sounds kind of vague in comparison to specifically mentioning polar bears, for example

White-nosed Coatis are very rare in the UK, so I assumed it was the same on the continent, but having just checked ZTL I realise that I was wrong here.

I believe tayras have to be the same case then? Of course they are not as common as coatis in mainland Europe either, but still, they are not that unique.

I have no idea what it was that made you think I was ragebaiting, and I think it's odd to accuse me of that just because I didn't provide a species list.

Nope! It was actually mainly because of putting brown hyenas and fur seals in the "small carnivore" category.

 

[Kalaw]

I believe tayras have to be the same case then? Of course they are not as common as coatis in mainland Europe either, but still, they are not that unique.

Absolutely not! Tayra are only kept at 27 European collections, which is certainly rare by my definition. If they aren't by yours, then neither are most of Chester's interesting species, like Bush Dogs, Bat-eared Foxes and Fossas, which are all kept as substantially more zoos, and Giant Otters which have roughly the same number. The only one you could still count would be the Palawan Binturongs.

In fact, the White-nosed Coatis which you deem so common only have four more holders (53-49) than both the Bat-eared Foxes which Rohin considers a Chester rarity, and the African Hunting Dogs that you yourself mention! Why should these two count but not the Tayra?

Nope! It was actually mainly because of putting brown hyenas and fur seals in the "small carnivore" category.

Fair enough, but you will note that if you remove 'small,' then my claims about Prague having significantly more rarities stand to scrutiny. And as I've already said, I was not meaning to suggest fur seals are small carnivores, sorry if I didn't make that clearer.

 

[cornu aspersum]

then neither are most of Chester's interesting species

What criteria makes a species interesting in this context? It seems to be different from rarity, at least. I don't necessarily think the foxes are rare (I agree in that the binturong are the only real rarity for Chester), but since you included bush dogs in your list of 'small interesting taxa', I assumed that these would be eligible.

 

[Kalaw]

What criteria makes a species interesting in this context? It seems to be different from rarity, at least. I don't necessarily think the foxes are rare (I agree in that the binturong are the only real rarity for Chester), but since you include bush dogs in your list of 'small interesting taxa', I assumed that these would be eligible.

The thing is that I would agree with you in saying Bat-eared Foxes are interesting, largely due to their rarity, but I would also say White-nosed Coatis are and Tayras absolutely are! I think it’s a ridiculous double standard for Merlin to suggest hunting dogs count but tayra don’t, but by my own criteria both species would along with all the ones named above. Some more so than others (tayra would actually be towards the upper end, funnily enough) but exciting to me when visiting a zoo which holds them. There’s a huge element of subjectivity in determining at what point a species becomes a rarity, and what factors other than rarity make a species ‘interesting,’ so that’s up to you to decide.

That said, I think this whole process of nitpicking at each other’s wording and debating over what counts as small or rare is a little bit tiring. It will be better if we get back to the actual subject at hand, I think.

 

[merlin]

Actually, I understand why would people vote for Prague in this category, but as a huuuuuge bear lover and someone more interested in exhibits than species lists, of course I'm leaning more towards Chester. Maybe if the current polar bear exhibit did not exist, maybe if tigers and lions had better enclosures, maybe if tayras and jaguarundis were moved to a better and bigger place, I would also vote for Prague. But I can't vote for that collection as it is at this moment.

Absolutely not! Tayra are only kept at 27 European collections, which is certainly rare by my definition. If they aren't by yours, then neither are most of Chester's interesting species, like Bush Dogs, Bat-eared Foxes and Fossas, which are all kept as substantially more zoos, and Giant Otters which have roughly the same number. The only one you could still count would be the Palawan Binturongs.

I don't really have a measurement, since I don't care about rarities. But if someone uses the term, I imagine they mean a species kept in less than 10 European zoos. It may be because of the place I come from though. There are just too many unique species in Czechia that would be hard to find elsewhere. Sometimes, I happen to think a species has to be common because it's on show at three zoos I visit regularly just to later find out those zoos are the only three zoos in the world with that taxon. Though, if I like something, I just do and I don't care if it's rare or not! Binturongs and giant otters are some of my favorite animals ever and the more zoos keep them the better (for me)! I mean, unless they live in inadequate premises. Also, there are not many animals I would not find interesting. They may be boring to watch, but they still probably have some unique trait! That too may be a reason why I care so much about how animals are being presented - I will happily spend an hour by watching sun bears climb or just mind their business, but that's not really something I can experience in Prague, as there are just two polar bears in a tank...

Fair enough, but you will note that if you remove 'small,' then my claims about Prague having significantly more rarities stand to scrutiny.

That's a fact, certainly. I may be stupid, but I still can count. Somehow.

think it’s a ridiculous double standard for Merlin to suggest hunting dogs count but tayra don’t, but by my own criteria both species would along with all the ones named above

What...? I suggested African wild dogs as those are actually smaller than giant otters or brown hyenas, I did not care about how rare they are at all - because I don't know and don't care

 

[Lafone]

I voted 3/2 Chester. There are some excellent exhibits with animals that are fun to see such as the Fossas, Giant Otters, Jaguar, Spectacled bear and tigers being particularly well set up. The Sun bear and Binturong is nice but I really dislike the viewing, which doesn't impact the animals of course but it's the one place I don't enjoy as much (the access area is crowded and dark, there's only one space without glass covered in unpleasant stuff by visitors etc) While I don't love the new housing for the Bat Eared foxes being so near a picnic area, the outside is great and both Mongoose enclosures, while not ground breaking, are well set up. The new Snow Leopard enclosure also looks a good space and that's a recent investment in housing carnivores for the zoo.

Prague has some nice rarities and deserves 2 points for some of the good looking exhibits and for having two very nice species of otter. It's actually harder for me to see a North American River Otter than a Brown Hyena these days and I do like an otter. Chester has a great exhibit however for the always lovely Giant.

Looking at the pictures and reading the comments on the previous rounds I'm content I like the overall exhibitry at Chester more for the species I want to see there. That's not to say other factors are not important to other people; this is all personal taste after all. And there is a lot of quality in both places. Quantity doesn't do much for me in isolation to how it is displayed.

I've also taken the view in previous rounds that Prague's polar bear enclosure doesn't do it credit and it continues to impact my vote.