European (Tea)Cup - HEAD-TO-HEAD: Tierpark Berlin vs Zoo Berlin (Hoofstock)

[TeaLovingDave]

As the title suggests, this one will focus on the HOOFSTOCK category - as previously, the match will last for three days and although discussion of your reasoning and provision of supplementary evidence is not mandatory (except in cases of a 5:0 vote) it *is* very much encouraged.

Moreover, even if one does not feel comfortable voting, please do ask questions, post comments relating to your opinions on the evidence presented, and generally-speaking get involved in the wider discussion!

 

[CrashMegaraptor]

Both have some pretty solid hoofstock collections, so I can't rank them any higher than 3/2, but T-Berlin has a largely higher quantity and quality, in part thanks to its larger exhibits. Also, I feel like it has a larger case of rarer species not often seen in zoos - at least compared to the UK where I live, and anything Z-Berlin may have had is now also in T-Berlin.

For example, amongst the highlights of my last trip to Z-Berlin back in 2018 was the Siberian Ibex and the Gerenuk, two species I had not seen before. They were both pretty awesome, but apparently T-Berlin now has them too.

 

[Philipine eagle]

This could be more exciting than initially anticipated. Consider that the Zoo has a significant lead with both hippo, duiker and tapir species and with Greater one-horned rhino, all of which are absent from the Tierpark.

For those who are interested, the collection of domesticated ungulates seems to me more solid in the Tierpark than in the Zoo.

I will take a closer look at the species lists, but for now I am inclined to give priority to the quality of the enclosures here: with the ungulate enclosures in the Himalayas, the African savannahs, the deer enclosures, the camel pastures and more good quality single-species exhibits, the Tierpark scores very well in this respect. Imo the best aspects of the Zoo in this regard are the historic buildings rather than the enclosures.

 

[Père Damian's Deer]

I find this to be a very close tie and rather than immediately voting for Tierpark Berlin. I want to show the collection for the zoo.
Zoo Berlin:

@SivatheriumGuy - Nice and spacious Blackbuck enclosure that greets when you arrive in the Zoo.

@kiang - Enclosure for Sable Antelope in a relatively quiet corner of the zoo.

@Zebraduiker

@ronnienl - Very nicely forested zone in the zoo for African Rainforest ungulates.
Species: Okapi, Yellow-backed Duiker, Eastern Bongo, Red Duiker.

@Zebraduiker - enclosure for a mix of South American animals, with the Guanaco counting here.

@twilighter - A nice and spacious paddock for African hoofstock.
Species: Greater Kudu, Blesbok, Cape Springbok.

@kiang - A simple paddock for Przewalski's Horse.

@ronnienl - Enclosure for Scimitar-horned Oryx.

@FunkyGibbon and @ZooTripper365 - Combining fantastic architecture with adequate spaceSpecies: Grevy's Zebra, Beisa Oryx, Eastern White-bearded Wildebeest, Somali Wild Ass, Dromedary Camel, Addax.

@ronnienl - Gemsbok enclosure.

@Green_mamba - Nice and rather spacious paddocks for two asian giants.
Species: Indian Gaur, Javan Banteng.

@SivatheriumGuy - Great architecture with some minimalistic enclosures for two species of Bison.
Species: Wisent, Plains Buffalo
Other species in this area: Lowland Anoa, Red Buffalo, South European Water Buffalo

@MagpieGoose

@LaughingDove - Some nicely forested Deer Paddocks in the centre of the Zoo.
Species: Eurasian Forest Reindeer, Michie's Tufted Deer, Persian Fallow Deer, Southern Pudu, Vietnamese Sika Deer, Visayan Spotted Deer.

@snowleopard

@DelacoursLangur

@FunkyGibbon - Some charming wild (pig) paddocks. (used to have Bornean Bearded Pig until recently).
Species: Babirusa, Chacoan Peccary, Northern Warthog, Southern White-lipped Peccary, Pot-bellied Pig.

@twilighter - They also have Javan Chevrotain in the Pheasantry.

 

[Père Damian's Deer]

@twilighter

@JigerofLemuria - Some very pleasant Mountainous enclosures with the Ibex mountain as the standout.
Species: Sichuan Takin, Himalayan Tahr, Siberian Ibex.

@snowleopard

@JigerofLemuria

@SivatheriumGuy

@DelacoursLangur - One of the most beautiful buildings in the zoo world is perfectly fitted for this category. The enclosures also tend to be quite good.
Species: Giraffe, Defassa Waterbuck, Kafue Lechwe, Western Sitatunga, Southern Gerenuk, Kirk's Dik-dik.

@DelacoursLangur

@twilighter

@DelacoursLangur

@Zebraduiker - A fantastic and impressive dome for the two species of Hippo, with good to adequate outdoor enclosures.
Species: Hippopotamus, Western Pygmy Hippopotamus, Nyala.

@DelacoursLangur

@twilighter

@ZooTripper365 - This relatively new exhibition has an impressive entrance in its own and has a total of 4 outdoor enclosures. It has underwater viewing as well. There is also a very nice Tapir enclosure next to it.
Species: Indian Rhino, Visayan Warty Pig, Malayan Tapir.

@lintworm - A spacious Asian Elephant enclosure that could do with a little more enrichment. The Bull enclosure is not really used anymore, I think after the passing of Viktor.
Ps: There is also a small petting zoo area near the World of birds.

I believe I highlighted that this tie is far closer than one might think after hearing the words hoofstock and Tierpark Berlin in one match. It is definitely a 3-2 in my opinion, but I have not yet decided in which way.

 

[CrashMegaraptor]

Oh, I certainly don't deny that Z-Berlin has got some really solid enclosures, especially for a city zoo with not as much space as T-Berlin to work with.

 

[tigris115]

West Berlin has some choice specimens but the Tierpark just edges it out for some absolutely juicy rarities like the musk deer and musk ox. Also, when I was seeing the white lipped deer, they came right up to the fence and I got to pet them on the snout.

 

[pipaluk]

Ok , I have gone against the grain here but :

Tierpark Berlin currently

No Elephants

No Rhino

No Hippo

No Tapir

Plenty of deer and antelope maybe in slightly better enclosures but where is the variety? This is 3-2 either way , any 4-1 vote for Tierpark with all these missing species is totally unjustified IMO
.

 

[Père Damian's Deer]

Ok , I have gone against the grain here but :

Tierpark Berlin currently

No Elephants

No Rhino

No Hippo

No Tapir

Plenty of deer and antelope maybe in slightly better enclosures but where is the variety? This is 3-2 either way , any 4-1 vote for Tierpark with all these missing species is totally unjustified IMO
.

I absolutely agree that 4-1 feels very excessive with the amount that the zoo has to offer.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

For example, amongst the highlights of my last trip to Z-Berlin back in 2018 was the Siberian Ibex and the Gerenuk, two species I had not seen before. They were both pretty awesome, but apparently T-Berlin now has them too.

A minor correction - Tierpark Berlin does not have Siberian Ibex, and it actually had the Gerenuk *before* Zoo Berlin did

Imo the best aspects of the Zoo in this regard are the historic buildings rather than the enclosures.

Definitely agreed - the Antelope House, the Zebra House and the Horse Tower are some of the oldest surviving structures in the zoo (all having survived WWII, albeit requiring significant repairs afterwards) and have been refurbished and maintained in a historically-accurate and attractive fashion.

It's just a pity that the oldest surviving structures of all - a set of deer houses which survived the war entirely undamaged and dated back to the opening of the zoo - were demolished several years ago to make way for the Giant Panda exhibit complex.

This is 3-2 either way , any 4-1 vote for Tierpark with all these missing species is totally unjustified IMO

Agreed - it's definitely closer to a 50-50 split than a 3-2 split in my opinion, let alone a 4-1 split.

 

[Père Damian's Deer]

A minor correction - Tierpark Berlin does not have Siberian Ibex, and it actually had the Gerenuk *before* Zoo Berlin did

Is there not a group of Siberian Ibex living with the Markhors?

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Is there not a group of Siberian Ibex living with the Markhors?

Having just checked my photographs from my visit in April, there is indeed - not sure how that slipped my memory!

 

[CrashMegaraptor]

A minor correction - Tierpark Berlin does not have Siberian Ibex, and it actually had the Gerenuk *before* Zoo Berlin did

True, but I didn't see them when I went to T-Berlin, so...

Is there not a group of Siberian Ibex living with the Markhors?

I'm just throwing it out there, that's really cool. ^^

 

[Père Damian's Deer]

I see that I already did a showcase on the african hoofstock, so here it is.
African Ungulates:

@Philipine eagle - This huge area finished last year and has become one of the best Savannah enclosures in the world. (about 1.2 hectares)
Species: Grévy Zebra, Beisa Oryx, Eastern White-bearded Wildebeest, Thomson’s Gazelle.

@Philipine eagle - Why have one zebra, when you can have two. (about 0.3 hectares)
Species: Hartmann’s Mountain Zebra

@Philipine eagle - A large and enriching habitat, renewed recently. (About 0.8 hectares) The house also contains a group of naked mole-rats.
Species: Rotschild’s Giraffe, Great White Pelican, Marabou, Naked Mole-rats

@SivatheriumGuy - One of only two holder of the Giraffe-antilope. This area also includes a similar looking enclosures for an actual giraffe relative and also a relative newcomer
Species: Southern Gerenuk, Okapi, Lesser Kudu

Tierpark Berlin style paddocks (large enclosure with the green fencing):

@Philipine eagle - Includes hoofstock from all habitats of Africa
Species: Mhorr Gazelle and Addax, Cape Buffalo, Southern Mountain Reedbuck, Red Buffalo, Red River Hog, Somali Wild Ass.
I might add the rest of the continents hoofstock in later.

 

[amur leopard]

I strongly believe that for the vast majority of the species held, the tierpark has better conditions. The Himalayan area, the new African savanna, and then the vast Camel paddocks are all better than anything the zoo has in this category maybe besides the hippos. There are no bad exhibits at the TP, the same cannot be said of the zoo (elephants, black rhino if it's still around).

 

[Père Damian's Deer]

Himalayas:

@SivatheriumGuy - The 'Takin valley' contains 4 relevant species in large enclosures. (2 of the 3 takin species)
Species: Sichuan Takin, Shensi Takin, Central Chinese Goral, Michie's Tufted Deer.

@twilighter

@Philipine eagle

@twilighter

@SivatheriumGuy

@twilighter - All these enclosures are all on a slope towards the upper peak of the Himalaya area. The species live in large and well-suited enclosures.
Species: Marco Polo Sheep, Bharal, Tajik Markhor, Siberian Ibex, Eastern Kiang, White-lipped Deer.
Kamelwiese:

@JigerofLemuria

@SivatheriumGuy - These absolutely HUGE enclosures are very much Tierpark heritage. All the possible Camelids are held here.
Species: Dromedary Camel, Bactrian Camel, Guanaco, Vicuña, Llama, Alpaca.
Forest animals entrance:

@SivatheriumGuy - If you pick the entrance of parking 2, you will be greeted by two enormous enclosures for both species of Bison.
Species: American Wood Bison, European Bison.

@Hvedekorn - Enclosure for Eurasian Elk (Moose), which has a nice forested feeling, but is rather unremarkable.
Deer Paddocks:

@SivatheriumGuy

@Green_mamba - A lot of deer paddocks containing some real rarities.
Species: Altai Wapiti, Bactrian Deer, Barasingha, Barbary Stag, Bawean Deer, Burmese Brow-antlered Deer, Indian Sambar Deer, Javan Rusa, Manitoba Elk, Persian Fallow Deer, Vietnamese Sika Deer.

@snowleopard - There is also a very nice Chacoan Peccary enclosure nearby.

 

[Père Damian's Deer]

Some more Traditional Tierpark Berlin enclosures:

@SivatheriumGuy

@lintworm

@SivatheriumGuy - These enclosures are all very large and contain a nice variety of hoofstock.
Species: Père David's Deer, Mishmi Takin, Przewalski's Horse, Siberian Musk Deer, Rocky Mountain Goat, Barren Ground Muskox, Common Hog Deer, Nilgai, Red Buffalo, European Water Buffalo, Gayal, Kulan, Eurasian Forest Reindeer.

@Philipine eagle - This enclosure seems to count for every category due to having 3 very different species with the Babirusa now counting.

@Hvedekorn

@Maguari - There is also a very pleasant Domestics area.
Notable Species: Hungarian Grey Cattle, Poitou Donkey, Hungarian Sheep,...

This is obviously a very big list for a wonderfull collection. I might still change my vote, but I do feel that 4-1 seems a bit odd to see in this comparison.

 

[Père Damian's Deer]

I strongly believe that for the vast majority of the species held, the tierpark has better conditions. The Himalayan area, the new African savanna, and then the vast Camel paddocks are all better than anything the zoo has in this category maybe besides the hippos. There are no bad exhibits at the TP, the same cannot be said of the zoo (elephants, black rhino if it's still around).

The Black Rhino have left quite a while ago and I do think the Elephant enclosure is less of a hinderance, because the bull enclosure is not in use due to Victor's passing.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Anyone want to make further arguments in favour of Zoo Berlin, or indeed counter-arguments intended to justify a 4-1 Tierpark vote?

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Tierpark Berlin - 57/95 points - 60.000%
Zoo Berlin - 38/95 points - 40.000%