Los Angeles Zoo & Botanical Gardens Golden monkeys
- Thread starter MARK
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remarkable that a zoo is willing to spent so much money on an animal that is not that charismatic... These animals are also on the wishing list of two dutch zoo's, but neither is willing to pay...
Quite an impressive array of monkeys they are having, only zoo outside their home-continent to house both golden snub-nosed langurs and red ouakari...
Quite an impressive array of monkeys they are having, only zoo outside their home-continent to house both golden snub-nosed langurs and red ouakari...
yeah agreed that its a supprising amount to pay - china is now doing the panda loan thing with monkeys! interestingly, its the same price that thailands chang mai zoo get their discounted panda rental $100,000 per year instead of a million a year)..
i would have thought golden monkeys would have been more of an asset to a temperate zoo than sunny LA zoo. in a cold climate they could be a valuble attraction in winter as they can be exhibited outdoors...
i would have thought golden monkeys would have been more of an asset to a temperate zoo than sunny LA zoo. in a cold climate they could be a valuble attraction in winter as they can be exhibited outdoors...
Jwer. I thought Rotterdam were soon to receive Golden Monkeys in return for the trio of Gorillas that are going to Shanghai later this year? Despite all the row about this last year, I think the Gorillas (but not Bokito, instead its now Dango and the two females Astra & Quenta) are China bound so that Rotterdam will get the monkeys- which members of the public will hardly bother to look at- for them a common easy- to- manage species like b/w Colubus would be just as effective...
why is everyone so convinced that golden monkeys are such a disappointment. i think zoos make animals drawcards or not based on the way they display them. japanese macaques are about the only other primate other than these monkeys that can not only tolerate, but is in fact adapted to cold climates. in a city that snows that can be a major advantage.
give them a good exhibit and promote them well and you can make these animals celebrities...
look what the disney did for meerkats..
give them a good exhibit and promote them well and you can make these animals celebrities...
look what the disney did for meerkats..
There's no denying they are very impressive. I'm just a bit concerned about very rare animals like this being exported to foreign zoos where their long term survival could be compromised (especially if the initial groups are small, when the odd death is enough to tip the balance as far as breeding is concerned). This was the situation with both Proboscis Monkeys and Douc Langurs, both species entered European and American Zoos a few decades ago, but being difficult to maintain in good health, they didn't prosper in the longterm and have been virtually abandoned now....
As far as i know Shanghai was willing to send the golden monkey's but in China, they are not to decide but the gouvernment is and they stick to their money-driven policies. The latest news is still that if Rotterdam wants either panda's or golden monkey's, they still need to pay.
Rotterdam zoo fans are now gambling on gettin one or more fresh takin's because the founder male died recently, but as far as i know nothing is sure at this point. BTW Rotterdam already has colobus monkey's and their curator loves rare and exotic species, a trade that seems to have become rare amongst curators these days as animal collections seem to become more and more the same. I would love to see this species but they'll all stay in the chinese breeding program, as far as that is arranged in China...
Rotterdam zoo fans are now gambling on gettin one or more fresh takin's because the founder male died recently, but as far as i know nothing is sure at this point. BTW Rotterdam already has colobus monkey's and their curator loves rare and exotic species, a trade that seems to have become rare amongst curators these days as animal collections seem to become more and more the same. I would love to see this species but they'll all stay in the chinese breeding program, as far as that is arranged in China...
colobus and langurs are related families of specialist leaf eaters. while i know a few species of both have become well established in captivity, they can be very difficult to feed in temperate zoos that cannot provide fresh fodder year-round. i met a german biologist in vietnam who studied the red-shanked doucs at a zoo in germany somewhere (can't remember which zoo). she had travelled to the country to do comparisons with the doucs at the EPRC. we had a long conversation on a beach about the primates and she said that the doucs had bred in germany, but didn't really thrive there. apart from the fact that they were dying out from inbreeding she said in the winter the animals lived on a diet of foliage that was frozen from the summer. apparently the monkeys barely picked at their food and preferred to go hungry for most of the time as they hated eating the soggy, defrosted leaves.
not supprisingly both doucs and proboscis langurs do well in singapore i believe.
i often say that temperate zoos should focus on temperate species. and i think it is slowly happening. i remember reading recently a zoo in the states (chigaco?) swapped its caribbean flamingo colony for a chilean colony with another zoo. the chileans can deal with very cold weather whereas the caribbean species had to be captured and put indoors for much of the year - a stressful experience for the birds.
golden langurs would do well i would guess. black gibbons are adapted to quite cold environments in the mountains of yunnan in china. dhole, golden cats, tigers, leopards - there are lots of species we consider "tropical" that actually are quite well equipped with the cold northern asia.
lots of possibilities for cold-tolerant exotic charismatic species in that part of the world. i'm supprised their isn't more zoos interested in golden monkeys... (or maybe there is?)
not supprisingly both doucs and proboscis langurs do well in singapore i believe.
i often say that temperate zoos should focus on temperate species. and i think it is slowly happening. i remember reading recently a zoo in the states (chigaco?) swapped its caribbean flamingo colony for a chilean colony with another zoo. the chileans can deal with very cold weather whereas the caribbean species had to be captured and put indoors for much of the year - a stressful experience for the birds.
golden langurs would do well i would guess. black gibbons are adapted to quite cold environments in the mountains of yunnan in china. dhole, golden cats, tigers, leopards - there are lots of species we consider "tropical" that actually are quite well equipped with the cold northern asia.
lots of possibilities for cold-tolerant exotic charismatic species in that part of the world. i'm supprised their isn't more zoos interested in golden monkeys... (or maybe there is?)
with sensitive species of primates like these ones it would seem a logical consideration to focus on another, more cold-hardy species. if a zoo ever opened in tasmania it would be a great opportunity to showcase temperate species...instead of an emphasis on the SEA rainforests of the mainland zoos an asian highland theme would be a good alternative. and could utilise regional collection species.
Golden monkeys are absolutely beautiful and could very well be a huge attraction if the LA Zoo gives the species ample coverage. I won't say more about the money issue. I believe that endangered species shouldn't come with price tags, but the Chinese govt seems to believe otherwise.
I think pat made a great point about the golden monkeys being one of the few primates species which are cold-tolerant, and would be perfect for temperate zoos.
I think pat made a great point about the golden monkeys being one of the few primates species which are cold-tolerant, and would be perfect for temperate zoos.
Jwer. Do you think the Rotterdam gorilla trio will still go to China, even if there is to be no straight exchange for other animals?
Patrick- fair comment about the douc langurs and proboscis. They had Douc langurs at Cologne zoo the longest- maybe still have a few there, I can't remember. But in the long term both species have proved difficult to keep successfully in temperate situations.
Agreed that Golden monkeys would be a very different prospect. They can obviously thrive in cold climates for a start. What about diet? But its unfortunate that Chinese animals are 'rented' out to foreign zoos nowadays- it means even if the zoo is successful keeping, even breeding with them, it can't be a longterm thing if there's a time limit for them to leave again- apart from the high costs and stress to the animals of being moved back and forth.
Patrick- fair comment about the douc langurs and proboscis. They had Douc langurs at Cologne zoo the longest- maybe still have a few there, I can't remember. But in the long term both species have proved difficult to keep successfully in temperate situations.
Agreed that Golden monkeys would be a very different prospect. They can obviously thrive in cold climates for a start. What about diet? But its unfortunate that Chinese animals are 'rented' out to foreign zoos nowadays- it means even if the zoo is successful keeping, even breeding with them, it can't be a longterm thing if there's a time limit for them to leave again- apart from the high costs and stress to the animals of being moved back and forth.
Yes they are still going, a multimillion dollar enclosure is being build at Shanghai and they are promised. As far as i remember Rotterdam Zoo received multiple animals from Shanghai allready without a straight exchange back (takin's, white-lipped and tufted deer amongst others i believe).
Cologne still holds 1.3 Douc's but they are highly inbred and are expected to die out. Still i don't believe you can compare zoological situations with those 20 years ago. San Diego had problems with letting them thrive and they are in a relatively hot climate. I don't know what causes the problems with them in the western world, but it wouldn't suprise me if it's just inbreeding, which has nothing to do with the ability to keep them but only with the ability to obtain enough unrelated animals...
A zoo like Duisburg can import fresh eucalyptes for their koala's, so why would it be impossible to keep Douc's and import fresh leaves for them. If a zoo commits to these species, even in a moderate climate they should be able to be kept decently in my opinion anyways...
But considering the impossibility's of getting unrelated animals it might be better for zoo's to switch to golden monkey's who are prolific in captivity in China. But then the whole renting issue comes up and they would need to be kept under the chinese breeding program, because western zoo's can't start up their own without "owning" the animals. This doesn't mean that they can't contribute to their breeding program though, so even tho it isn't ideal it's not that bad...
In my opinion the only reasonable long term solution is to pick a relatively endangered species, of which enough unrelated founders can be obtained now or in the near future to set up a breeding program big enough to keep a good population in western zoo's. The annoying thing about that is that every zoo is going to keep the same species...
Small note on takin's: Europe currently holds three subspecies of takin's, Szechuan, Mishmi and golden takin's. We tried to trace their origins with some dutch zoo-followers and as far as we know all the Mishmi's in the western world (thus including USA) are from 2.1 founders in Berlin Tierpark so hugely inbred. The Szechuan are Rotterdam's original pair received from Shanghai and their offspring distributed over Europe, the male founder of Rotterdam died recently so any new offspring will be brother/sister. And the golden takin's are Liberec (czech republic) original pair and their offspring 2.1 who are at Chomutov (also CZ). Any new blood would help any of these subspecies...
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Jwer. In UK Marwell Zoo also have a pair of Takins- Mishmi I think- and they bred a calf this last year.. I don't know where they originate from but probably zoobred.
What is the situation with the White-lipped Deer at Rotterdam now? When I saw them some years ago there was 1.1 plus one calf. Have they multiplied or
otherwise?
Its always a problem with the 'difficult to obtain' (as against actually numerically 'rare') species (e.g. Golden Monkey?) where only a pair or trio is made available- as I said, the loss of even one animal can then prevent breeding opportunities if a replacement isn't quickly available. As you said, a species where it isn't difficult to get additional animals for replacement, or to prevent too much inbreeding, is perhaps a wiser and more realistic choice. Maybe 3.3 as a minumum of founder animals is a reasonable ratio for starting groups of primates in new locations?
What is the situation with the White-lipped Deer at Rotterdam now? When I saw them some years ago there was 1.1 plus one calf. Have they multiplied or
otherwise?
Its always a problem with the 'difficult to obtain' (as against actually numerically 'rare') species (e.g. Golden Monkey?) where only a pair or trio is made available- as I said, the loss of even one animal can then prevent breeding opportunities if a replacement isn't quickly available. As you said, a species where it isn't difficult to get additional animals for replacement, or to prevent too much inbreeding, is perhaps a wiser and more realistic choice. Maybe 3.3 as a minumum of founder animals is a reasonable ratio for starting groups of primates in new locations?
Rotterdam shipped their remaining white-lipped deer to Safaripark Beekse Bergen in (i think) 2005 somewhere, they don't have any anymore. Mishmi's are kept at multiple locations, Berlin Tierpark has a dozen or more of them, Wuppertal, Prague and a few others hold them as well but as i said, they are all from 2.1 animals imported to Berlin a couple of decades back. All highly inbred.
I believe the problem with keeping doucs is not so much diet but stress. I'm sure fresh leaves could be imported for feeding, but doucs are also extremely sensitive to humidity, temperature and general environmental stress. The ones at San Diego developed gastrointestinal problems, not sure what the cause is, but it well could be environmental stress.
I think both views are partially correct- if diet isn't exactly right, then condition will deteriorate, and faster still if the animals suffer from stress anyway. Douc Langurs are very nervous creatures so probably experience a lot of stress under captive conditions- zoos which bred from them also experienced a number of miscarriages and stillbirths in the females, another indicator that they may be suffering high stress levels. They do seem unsuited for captivity, except perhaps in semi-liberty in their native countries, as at the Rare Langur breeding sanctuary in Vietnam.