help with primate enclosure pleas!

[secretvalleyf]

Hi

we are looking for any advice and information on enclosures for lemurs, capachins, and marmosets. we are hoping to set up irelands first lemur sanctuary for other primates too. we have two that have been rescued and look to rescue more from the ever growing pet trade.
we have already looked at the island style and that will not work for us here. we know we have a long way to go and a lot of red tape to get through but are both very passionate about primates and are currently studying in zoology.
any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Zooplantman]

The WAZA web site has great information.

For example:
Black-and-white Ruffed Lemur - Varecia variegata : WAZA : World Association of Zoos and Aquariums

Choose an animal and then click the tab "In the Zoo" above the picture on the Fact Sheet

 

[Rothschildi]

Best bet is to get a curator or vet from a Ireland based zoo to act a mentor for you guys. That way you get advice from someones who done it, not armchairs experts or from horrifically worded government documents.

The fact you mention that you're studying zoology gives me the idea you're relatively young and currently have responsibilities. The capital needed for even a small facility will be in the 6 figures at least, plus will require every ounce of your time. Is it really a viable option at the moment?

Im interested in your comment regarding the pet trade. In the UK at least almost all primate species are listed as DWA and therefore require stringent checks before the keeper can even have them. Generally DWA keepers in the UK are very passionate about the animals and dont have them 'because they're cool'. Is there a much bigger problem in Ireland?

 

[Chlidonias]

@Rothschildi, this is the collection they run: Secret Valley Adventure Farm (and agree, would be a good idea to ask at local zoos)

 

[Rothschildi]

@Rothschildi, this is the collection they run: Secret Valley Adventure Farm (and agree, would be a good idea to ask at local zoos)

Thanks. Now its a whole different ball game, going from the first message which reads as 2 guys with 2 lemurs to an already established open farm wanting to move into exotics.

Id seriously consider contacting either FOTA or Dublin for assistance, if only a visit to their zoo to see how theyve got things set up.

Also nice simple website, i know a number of zoo's with much poorer examples.

 

[secretvalleyf]

hi guys

thanx for your help, we are infact two irish mums! lol there are no strict laws or licenses in this country so there is a problem with primates and other wild animals in the pet trade. it is so sad to see but thats why we want to help.
the red tape is very stringent.

any other advice you can think of would be greatly appreciated

secretvalleyf

 

[bca]

Primate pet trade in UK

Hi there,

I would like to point out that despite DWA legislation, there is quite a significant primate pet trade in the UK - there are probably about 5,000 privately owned primates (many of whom are lemurs) in England Scotland and Wales alone. Given the extremely high rates of non-compliance with DWA licensing requirements, it's impossible to do anything other than estimate this number. Those primates that are actually licensed are not necessarily living in fantastic conditions as the checks that owners need to go through are unfortunately not at all stringent and rarely carried out by primate specialists. There are no estimates that I am aware of for the number of privately owned primates in the Republic of Ireland but I would imagine that with pretty much no regulation, the trade is problematic!

Best bet is to get a curator or vet from a Ireland based zoo to act a mentor for you guys. That way you get advice from someones who done it, not armchairs experts or from horrifically worded government documents.

The fact you mention that you're studying zoology gives me the idea you're relatively young and currently have responsibilities. The capital needed for even a small facility will be in the 6 figures at least, plus will require every ounce of your time. Is it really a viable option at the moment?

Im interested in your comment regarding the pet trade. In the UK at least almost all primate species are listed as DWA and therefore require stringent checks before the keeper can even have them. Generally DWA keepers in the UK are very passionate about the animals and dont have them 'because they're cool'. Is there a much bigger problem in Ireland?

 

[Shorts]

I know this is off-thread a little, but here goes:

I don't think it's fair to smear private owners of primates in the UK without backing up your opinions with a few more facts.

I would like to point out that despite DWA legislation, there is quite a significant primate pet trade in the UK - there are probably about 5,000 privately owned primates (many of whom are lemurs) in England Scotland and Wales alone.

Firstly, I really wouldn't say "many" of privately owned primates are Lemurs. To my knowledge only a very small percentage are, largely because they're not that common and usually require paperwork to buy and sell. 5,000 is probably as good an estimate as any, but it should be remembered that most of those (Marmosets & Tamarins included) don't require DWA registration.

Given the extremely high rates of non-compliance with DWA licensing requirements, it's impossible to do anything other than estimate this number.

As touched on above I don't think there's a high level of non-compliance for those species requiring DWA. Mainly because those keeping DWA requirement primates are very mindful of their legal obligations and wouldn't want to do anything (as stupid as selling to someone without the requisite DWA licence and suitable accommodation) which would harm their primates, their right to keep them or the image of private primate keepers in general. This is also true to a large extent with non-DWA primates. I do agree there are more potential cracks which non-DWA primates could slip though and cases do arise of poor keepers or shopkeepers (usually in it only for the novelty factor or money). However I don't think the numbers or percentages are large compared to peoples tretament of dogs and cats (the high price tag usually ensures someone is serious about keeping them).

Those primates that are actually licensed are not necessarily living in fantastic conditions as the checks that owners need to go through are unfortunately not at all stringent and rarely carried out by primate specialists.

Sorry, but I think this is an unsupported slur. Have you seen many living conditions of privately kept primates (apart from those in RSPCA, and similar, brochures which are unrepresentative and designed to tug heartstrings and get donations)? Many privately kept primates are in conditions at least equal to those in (especially the smaller) zoos and don't get distrurbed by unfamiliar public visitors.

I'm not saying there aren't problems, but the whole private primate keeping community is not blighted with them.

For the record, I don't keep primates myself but am passionate in support of the right to do so (providing animals needs are met).

 

[brongracz]

@zooplantman Do you happen to know what is the source of the guidlines of WAZA to which you pointed us? Is there some UN edict or particular treaty or sth? I mean is there a legal base?

 

[bca]

Clarification - the UK primate pet trade

Hi there,

Apologies if you thought my intention was to smear private owners. I simply though it important and relevant to point out that there is a thriving primate pet trade in the UK and that many problems result. I made my statement based on extensive experience rehabilitating ex-pet primates (in the UK, the Netherlands, North America and South America) and a number of years researching the UK primate pet trade specifically. So yes, I have seen the living conditions of (far too many) privately kept primates in the UK. My intention is not to slur anyone but to advocate protection for the primates that suffer as a result of the pet trade.

As of 2009 there were twice the number of lemurs licensed under the DWAA than any other primate species (capuchins were the next most popular type of DWA licensable primate). DEFRA stands by an 85-95% rate of non-compliance, and more recent data from Wild Futures' Monkey Sanctuary bears this out; 82% of former owners of rescued monkey did not comply with the DWAA. As you said, marmosets and tamarins (and squirrel monkeys) do not require licenses under that Act and there are probably a lot of these monkeys out there.

In terms of the fact that lemurs are CITES annex A species and require extensive paperwork to buy and sell, of course this is true but we have found a number of instances where this paperwork was not in place nor were the relevant authorities aware that such paperwork was required (the instances I am referring to involved Goeldi's monkeys and cotton-topped tamarins, which you can fairly easily find advertised "for sale" in specialist forums). Clearly the need for paperwork does not significantly hinder the trade in such species (whether the trade is conducted legally or illegally).

Thanks

I know this is off-thread a little, but here goes:

I don't think it's fair to smear private owners of primates in the UK without backing up your opinions with a few more facts.



Firstly, I really wouldn't say "many" of privately owned primates are Lemurs. To my knowledge only a very small percentage are, largely because they're not that common and usually require paperwork to buy and sell. 5,000 is probably as good an estimate as any, but it should be remembered that most of those (Marmosets & Tamarins included) don't require DWA registration.




As touched on above I don't think there's a high level of non-compliance for those species requiring DWA. Mainly because those keeping DWA requirement primates are very mindful of their legal obligations and wouldn't want to do anything (as stupid as selling to someone without the requisite DWA licence and suitable accommodation) which would harm their primates, their right to keep them or the image of private primate keepers in general. This is also true to a large extent with non-DWA primates. I do agree there are more potential cracks which non-DWA primates could slip though and cases do arise of poor keepers or shopkeepers (usually in it only for the novelty factor or money). However I don't think the numbers or percentages are large compared to peoples tretament of dogs and cats (the high price tag usually ensures someone is serious about keeping them).



Sorry, but I think this is an unsupported slur. Have you seen many living conditions of privately kept primates (apart from those in RSPCA, and similar, brochures which are unrepresentative and designed to tug heartstrings and get donations)? Many privately kept primates are in conditions at least equal to those in (especially the smaller) zoos and don't get distrurbed by unfamiliar public visitors.

I'm not saying there aren't problems, but the whole private primate keeping community is not blighted with them.

For the record, I don't keep primates myself but am passionate in support of the right to do so (providing animals needs are met).

 

[Shorts]

Apologies accepted, thanks for your well-structured and informative reply. I can only agree with your intention to protect the victims of the pet trade.

As of 2009 there were twice the number of lemurs licensed under the DWAA than any other primate species (capuchins were the next most popular type of DWA licensable primate).

Where did you manage to get that information from (do you have a website reference) -I'm interested to know what's kept under DWA in the UK but I've never managed to find a single source for such information.

I suppose it's not that surprising that there's twice as many Lemurs as any other species given their general calmness and (arguably) more straight forward requirements (note, I'm not implying they're easy to keep). I still think statistically Lemurs would only be a small portion of all primates (DWA and non-DWA) kept privately.

DEFRA stands by an 85-95% rate of non-compliance, and more recent data from Wild Futures' Monkey Sanctuary bears this out; 82% of former owners of rescued monkey did not comply with the DWAA.

I'm really struggling to imagine that for every DWA primate properly registered there's 17 to 19 others non-registered. I don't believe there's that many DWA primates out there. I'd be intrigued to learn of DEFRA's logic for those percentages. Also, the statistics may be misleading -given that rescued primates are more likely to be kept by those who haven't passed for their DWA licence it would be wrong to imply that 82% of all primates are kept without DWA licences (in statistical terms, "the sample could be extremely skewed).

 

[bca]

DWA Act, non-compliance and so on

Hi there,

The high rate of non-compliance is amazing, isn't it? The study on the DWAA that DEFRA uses is:

Greenwood, Cusdin and Radford (2001) Effectiveness Study of the Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976

and can be found here:

http://www.thehsi.org/legislation/dwa/Effectiveness of DWA.pdf

It's a decade old but DEFRA still stand by it.

I don't mean to state that there is definitely, specifically an 82% non-compliance rate when it comes to DWA primates, but this number is what's there at the monkey Sanctuary - and I do find it interesting that the number (which is less than a year old) is not far off the 2001 estimate of 85-95%. I am pretty confident that non-compliance is still very high.

We collect information from all of the Local Authorities in England, Scotland and Wales every year (using the Freedom of Information Act) and this is how we know how many primates are actually licensed each year. The number of individuals licensed rose by something like 10% between 2009 and 2010; whether this reflects an increase in enforcement or an increase in keeping I could not venture to say. But what I can say is although many Local Authorities are very good about enforcing the DWAA, there are some that hardly seem to know what it is or understand that they are meant to be administering it! The raw data is not published but you can look at a powerpoint presentation online (which hopefully will make some sense without the actual talk) here:

http://compassionateconservation.org/Presentation - Brooke Aldrich.pdf

The research is ongoing.

Apologies accepted, thanks for your well-structured and informative reply. I can only agree with your intention to protect the victims of the pet trade.



Where did you manage to get that information from (do you have a website reference) -I'm interested to know what's kept under DWA in the UK but I've never managed to find a single source for such information.

I suppose it's not that surprising that there's twice as many Lemurs as any other species given their general calmness and (arguably) more straight forward requirements (note, I'm not implying they're easy to keep). I still think statistically Lemurs would only be a small portion of all primates (DWA and non-DWA) kept privately.



I'm really struggling to imagine that for every DWA primate properly registered there's 17 to 19 others non-registered. I don't believe there's that many DWA primates out there. I'd be intrigued to learn of DEFRA's logic for those percentages. Also, the statistics may be misleading -given that rescued primates are more likely to be kept by those who haven't passed for their DWA licence it would be wrong to imply that 82% of all primates are kept without DWA licences (in statistical terms, "the sample could be extremely skewed).

 

[Shorts]

Facts or propaganda?

Many thanks for that expansion and information BCA.

I'm sorry I'm still sceptical given the information's from the Monkey Sanctuary which, as far as I remember, is anti private keeping rather than anti bad private primate keeping. Ironically, the Monkey Sanctuary (and the amazing Aspinall collections) wouldn't exist without private primate keeping.

From a quick review of the information I would raise the following points:

1. Whilst the DEFRA report says sources (not themselves) have suggested an 85-95% non-compliance rate, they state that they have found, "no proof to support non-compliance of this magnitude". Personally, I'd accuse the presentation of taking a quote out of context and misrepresenting DEFRA for political aims ;

2. The Powerpoint presentation claim that 30% of all trade in primates is from wild caught animals. I'm sceptical of this on the basis that I know of no legitimate UK importers regularly trading in primates (6 months quarantine would be a severe financial barrier) and I can't imagine primates are easy to smuggle in. Do you have any figures of primates seized by Customs which might support wild caught animals being smuggled in and traded to the extent suggested?

3. The 10% you quote in individuals licenced is (per slide 5) incorrect. The slide states only a 4.42% increase which I don't think can be taken to mean anything specific with any certainty. It mayjust be the result of more, internet forum equiped people becoming interested in keeping DWA primates properly with a licence (or may not).

For balance, I don't dispute or disagree with everthing in the presentation -I do think there are potential problems with "unregulated" sanctuaries. What do you mean by unregulated? Lacking DWA's? lacking Zoo Licences?

 

[bca]

Hi again,

As I had feared, the slides aren't so clear without the talk. Sorry for not giving more detail to begin with. There is no claim that 30% of all trade is from wild caught animals (though I can see why you might think this is the claim). That slide refers to rescued monkeys at the Sanctuary over the past ten years. And indeed, 30% of individuals rescued since 2001 were wild caught - perhaps more given that the origins of nearly 40% of rescues are unknown. BUT this in itself could be misleading because although most of the rescued monkeys are from the UK trade, a few are from further afield in the EU and some of these are wild-caught. Hopefully this is clear during the talk itself.

You're right - the 10% figure I gave was off but you can see that the figure I was referring to for the increase in licensed individuals is actually over 13% - the number of licences granted increased by 4.42% (as a single license can be for multiple animals).

"Unregulated Sanctuaries" refers to the fact that there is no legal definition of "sanctuary" - such places are either regulated by the DWA Act or the Zoo Licensing Act. We compared the number of licences including those held by DWAA licensed sanctuaries with the numbers of licences not including such places, in order to see whether the majority of privately kept primates are actually residents in sanctuaries. We are aware that DWA licensed sanctuaries can indeed be wonderful places - and we have also run across such places which did not even provide basic veterinary care for the resident primates (and as such we might have a difficult time calling them 'sanctuaries'). I've not heard of any place calling itself a sanctuary that was violating the DWA Act (in terms of not being licensed). So of course, the AWA should be protecting all of the animals in all of them, but as we have seen repeatedly, the special requirements of primates often remain unrecognised and the results can be pretty grim.

Many thanks for that expansion and information BCA.

I'm sorry I'm still sceptical given the information's from the Monkey Sanctuary which, as far as I remember, is anti private keeping rather than anti bad private primate keeping. Ironically, the Monkey Sanctuary (and the amazing Aspinall collections) wouldn't exist without private primate keeping.

From a quick review of the information I would raise the following points:

1. Whilst the DEFRA report says sources (not themselves) have suggested an 85-95% non-compliance rate, they state that they have found, "no proof to support non-compliance of this magnitude". Personally, I'd accuse the presentation of taking a quote out of context and misrepresenting DEFRA for political aims ;



2. The Powerpoint presentation claim that 30% of all trade in primates is from wild caught animals. I'm sceptical of this on the basis that I know of no legitimate UK importers regularly trading in primates (6 months quarantine would be a severe financial barrier) and I can't imagine primates are easy to smuggle in. Do you have any figures of primates seized by Customs which might support wild caught animals being smuggled in and traded to the extent suggested?

3. The 10% you quote in individuals licenced is (per slide 5) incorrect. The slide states only a 4.42% increase which I don't think can be taken to mean anything specific with any certainty. It mayjust be the result of more, internet forum equiped people becoming interested in keeping DWA primates properly with a licence (or may not).

For balance, I don't dispute or disagree with everthing in the presentation -I do think there are potential problems with "unregulated" sanctuaries. What do you mean by unregulated? Lacking DWA's? lacking Zoo Licences?