How many subspecies of Canis lupus have you seen?

Hipporex

Hipporex

Well-Known Member
5+ year member
For the sake of Zoochat continuity we'll use TLD's The Zoochat Photographic Guide To Canids to define what is and isn't within Canis lupus.

I have personally four subspecies:
Arctic wolf (C. l. arctos)
Mexican wolf (C. l. baileyi)
Domestic dog (C. l. familiaris)
Alaskan tundra wolf (C. l. tundrarum)

What about you guys?
 
Arctic wolf (C. l. arctos)
Mexican wolf (C. l. baileyi)
Domestic dog (C. l. familiaris
Iranian wolf (C. l. pallipes)
Northern Rocky Mtn wolf (C. l. irremotus) if thats the type in yellowstone- I think it is
 
Just two in the wild:

Domestic dog (C. l. familiaris)
Indian wolf (C.I. pallipes)

I first saw a single Indian wolf on a road at night in rural India, and was unsure whether it might have been a golden jackal or stray dog. Luckily, I saw and photographed a pack of nine 100% unmistakable Indian wolves in the buffer zone of Pench NP shortly after, so I can count it :)

@Daktari JG where did you see your pallipes, if you don't mind me asking? I'm interested in what the most reliable sites might be across India / Middle East.
 
Mbwamwitu said:
Just two in the wild:

Domestic dog (C. l. familiaris)
Indian wolf (C.I. pallipes)

I first saw a single Indian wolf on a road at night in rural India, and was unsure whether it might have been a golden jackal or stray dog. Luckily, I saw and photographed a pack of nine 100% unmistakable Indian wolves in the buffer zone of Pench NP shortly after, so I can count it :)

@Daktari JG where did you see your pallipes, if you don't mind me asking? I'm interested in what the most reliable sites might be across India / Middle East.
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You're allowed to include captive animals
 
C.l. familiaris
C.l. occidentalis
C.l. baileyi
C. l. tundrarum
C. l. arctos
C.l. columbianus
C.l. dingo
C.l. hallstromi

and plenty of non-sub-specific ones.
 
None of you have seen genuine arctos or tundrarum, the entire captive population as far as I know are highly hybridized with domestic dog and other subspecies ala white tiger. Hybrids retain the white coloration so retaining purity was never a priority for zoos back in the day. There are possibly some pure animals in Canadian zoos, but I don't know who, if anyone, has them.

To my knowledge, the only currently recognized extant subspecies of Canis lupus in North America are baileyi, occidentalis, and arctos which makes a lot more sense over the extreme over-splitting of subspecies that has been historically very common in North American mammals. Regardless of taxonomy, the Yellowstone animals are occidentalis with nubilus having gone Extinct.

Personally I have thus far seen Eurasian Wolf (C. l. lupus), Iberian Wolf (C. l. signatus), Mexican Wolf (C. l. baileyi), and Mackenzie Valley Wolf (C. l. occidentalis). I have also obviously seen C. (l.) rufus, C. (l.) familiaris, C. l./d. dingo, and C. l./d. hallstromi, but I split them all.

~Thylo
 
birdsandbats said:
@ThylacineAlive Is the population of C.l. columbianus in zoo pure?
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I don't know anything about this population, which zoos keep them?

I was going to say that columbianus likely isn't valid, but I just did a super quick look into them and it appears as though there is evidence suggesting the wolves found in coastal southeast Alaska, coastal British Columbia, and Vancouver Island are all one subspecies genetically distinct from inland occidentalis. Similar studies also show a relationship with now-extirpated wolves from Oklahoma, which actually suggests that nubilus is not Extinct and has survived along this coastal strip of land. Very interesting stuff, and now I want to go see some of these wolves :p

~Thylo
 
ThylacineAlive said:
I don't know anything about this population, which zoos keep them?

I was going to say that columbianus likely isn't valid, but I just did a super quick look into them and it appears as though there is evidence suggesting the wolves found in coastal southeast Alaska, coastal British Columbia, and Vancouver Island are all one subspecies genetically distinct from inland occidentalis. Similar studies also show a relationship with now-extirpated wolves from Oklahoma, which actually suggests that nubilus is not Extinct and has survived along this coastal strip of land. Very interesting stuff, and now I want to go see some of these wolves :p

~Thylo
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I saw them at DeYoung.
 
ThylacineAlive said:
Hmm I'd love to know where exactly they came from because I'm not convinced looking at their photos of their animals.

Also what's a "Pacaguitia"? The only reference to them online is DeYoung's website.

~Thylo
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DeYoung keeps C. l. tundrarum, C. l. arctos and C.(l.) lycaon (all impure) in addition to the C.l. columbianus. They keep Dingo and NGSD as well.

And no one knows what a Pacaguitia is.
 
ThylacineAlive said:
Hmm I'd love to know where exactly they came from because I'm not convinced looking at their photos of their animals.

Also what's a "Pacaguitia"? The only reference to them online is DeYoung's website.

~Thylo
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I might have some photos of the wolves, but I would have to look. But I didn't get great views, so I'm doubtful.
 
ThylacineAlive said:
Because they're claiming to have four subspecies of wolves and the other three are all known to be impure. Do they have any information on the origins of these animals?

~Thylo
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I do not know the origins.

I wouldn't say they are claiming to have Eastern Wolves. They have wolves that are known to be hybrids including the C.(l.) lycaon, but they don't really claim to have the (sub)species.
 
ThylacineAlive said:
Also what's a "Pacaguitia"? The only reference to them online is DeYoung's website.
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That's been on there for at least a couple of years (it was previously referenced on this foum in 2016). The best I could guess would be that it is refering to a Paca (combining paca and cutia, with spelling errors).

If you play around with lettering there are various other possibilites, all extremely slim, like rata guira, or combining paca and hutia.
 
Chlidonias said:
That's been on there for at least a couple of years (it was previously referenced on this foum in 2016). The best I could guess would be that it is refering to a Paca (combining paca and cutia, with spelling errors).

If you play around with lettering there are various other possibilites, all extremely slim, like rata guira, or combining paca and hutia.
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Yeah I vaguely remember reading and maybe even commenting on that discussion. I like how the underneath the word it says "photo coming soon" even though it's presumably been like that for years.

~Thylo
 
Chlidonias said:
That's been on there for at least a couple of years (it was previously referenced on this foum in 2016). The best I could guess would be that it is refering to a Paca (combining paca and cutia, with spelling errors).

If you play around with lettering there are various other possibilites, all extremely slim, like rata guira, or combining paca and hutia.
Click to expand...
The zoo does not have pacas, or agoutis, or hutias.
 
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