London Zoo Gorillas

Mr T

Mr T

Well-Known Member
I visited London zoo on Good Friday (6th of April) and spend quite a while observing their group of 4 gorillas. They seemed to be quite a settled little group and the volunteers said that they were all getting on well. As I have read previously on here and on various newspaper sites, the male Kesho unfortunately suffers from a genetic condition which has resulted in him being infertile.

The aim of this group was to create a breeding group which will not happen. They could only create a breeding group if Kesho was removed and a new male was sourced, but since he has settled so well and the group has mixed well I believe that the zoo are not considering this option in the near future.

I was thinking could this group of females be suitable candidates for an artificial insemination programme? I am aware that artificial insemination has proven difficult with gorillas (I believe from another post I have read, and I may be wrong, that it has only worked once, in Australia)

Since this group are never, under current circumstances, going to concieve naturally could they not be part of a pioneering trial of artificial insemination in gorillas. Kesho would believe that the offspring are his, as I believe he has mated with some of the females.

They sperm chosen could be from under represented males who are not currently in a breeding group yet, without disrupting the dynamics of the current group.

I appreciate this is a long shot and I have no expertise in this area but who thinks this could work and is a feasible option?
 
A.I. has worked on gorillas in the past and if London do opt for the option then Kesho would defiantly accept the baby as his own as he has mated with some of the females, I was thinking possible Mjukuu.

Kesho has Klinefelter syndrome, often found in humans but I believe rare in Gorillas. Since the death of the baby in 2011 all four Gorillas have been put together.

I think trying A.I. on Mjukuu and/or possibly Effie, wouldn't Zaire be to old by now being 38? With Mjukuu only being 13 at present, she is very similar to one of Blackpool's adult females Njema who for some reason can't get pregnant although, at London it's a different case.
 
Mr T said:
They sperm chosen could be from under represented males who are not currently in a breeding group yet, without disrupting the dynamics of the current group.

I appreciate this is a long shot and I have no expertise in this area but who thinks this could work and is a feasible option?
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They are in a difficult position with all this- Kesho's infertility being the latest piece of unbelievably bad luck in a long saga stretching over many years now.

AI has a very low success rate in Gorillas. It also usually involves knocking out the animals(repeatedly if not successful) for the procedure, something I don't condone. On the other hand if these females could be trained to accept the procedure manually, that is far less invasive/risky and I would have no problem with that. However that is more likely to be possible with human-orientated females rather than ones like these that are living in a normal situation with a male which is mating them.

You are correct that Kesho would treat any young now born in the group as his own. They are obviously reluctant to break up what is now apparently a settled group by replacing him with yet another new male but I still think its the only way they will get any babies from them.

One alternative to replacing him would be to bring in an approximately eight year old mother-reared male (tested for fertility first!) to join the group under Kesho's leadership- he would also mate the females and probably father offspring(Kesho could be temporarily removed some of the time when a female was in season to allow a young male more access, but he would still treat any subsequent offspring as his own as he is now established as the group's male- this has happened in other zoos) At maturity one of the males would probably have to leave but by then they might be happy to let Kesho go if the 2nd male was proven.

Pinning success on AI is I think a waste of time but they may well try it given the amount of scientific/vetinary work carried out by ZSL.
 
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Pertinax said:
On the other hand if these females could be trained to accept the procedure manually, that is far less invasive/risky and I would have no problem with that.
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HI Perinax,
Is this a proven technique with apes?
 
I believe it has been tried, though not sure with which species and whether there was any success. Don't quote me on this though- I'm really not sure.:confused:
 
hasn't this poor gorilla group been through enough already? I know that as the species are endangered breeding from them is important, but with the death of 2 males, the death of an infant maybe the groups own welfare is more important now. Zaire is too old to breed, so maybe the youngest female could be sent on to breed elsewhere with a male known to have produced offspring, and older females bought in? I presume that moving in more males would not go down well with kesho. AI is risky, traumatic to the poor female and expensive. Sometimes, i do think that the way some animals are treated in zoos goes beyond the pale. enough is enough!
 
These four individuals have indeed been through enough. For this reason, I would advocate attempts, slowly over time, to train the females to accept AI attempts voluntarily, without the need for anaesthesia. Behaviourally, a primate group needs more than one generation in order to really thrive (as well as literally, of course), but attempting to achieve this by either bringing in another, younger, male, or sending Kesho away to live out a bachelor existence, would both in my mind be unneccessary and stressful for all involved. As Pertinax stated, anaesthetising gorillas is risky, and I feel it would be unethical to do this for the sake of AI.

I'm sure sections of management within ZSL would just like a baby gorilla. I don't really care about the motivation, I just think target-training for AI would put nothing at risk and give the existing group a chance of parenting some infants.
 
I think that AI was used successfully with chimps many years ago in the USA. I haven't got the details to hand, but I think that a hand-reared male could not mate successfully with the females he was kept with, but he readily provided a semen sample through the bars of his den when presented with a miniature version of the apparatus used with stud bulls (as we all know, male chimps are not bashful creatures :)). I imagine that the females had to be anaesthetised for insemination, and perhaps the inseminator needed a little tincture* before the procedure too :D

Alan

* I nearly wrote 'a stiff one', but that would not have been wise :rolleyes:
 
zooman said:
HI Perinax,
Is this a proven technique with apes?
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I read ages ago in an old Gorilla Journal in the 90s that Koko the signing gorilla was trained to accept AI sessions using operant conditioning techniques when she didn't wind up mating with Ndume. They apparently used semen from Ivan the silverback at Atlanta zoo.Obviously didn't work though.
 
leiclad20 said:
Zaire is too old to breed, so maybe the youngest female could be sent on to breed elsewhere with a male known to have produced offspring, and older females bought in? I presume that moving in more males would not go down well with kesho. AI is risky, traumatic to the poor female and expensive.
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Contrary to popular belief- and even what the zoo put out too, IMO Zaire is not too old to breed- Salome at Bristol is only a year younger and currently rearing her second recent baby. Saying she is too old is an easy way of explaining away her current non-breeding status. However it is also quite possible that given the many years since she had her only offspring, Zaire's reproductive system may have shut down and she probably wouldn't breed again at least without some fertility help.

Bringing in older females would put them back in the situation pre Gorilla Kingdom when they had the females Diana from Bristol and Messy & Minouche from a Czech zoo- it wasn't a proper group, then Diana died and the other two were subsequently sent back where they came from as they weren't planned as Gorilla Kingdom group members.

Currently ZSL do have a settled group, its just not a breeding one. I would prefer to see them stay as they are rather than unsettling them with further moves but I would still advocate adding a younger male- I am quite sure Kesho would welcome a younger sparring partner (he is a very playful male and grew up with his younger brothers in the Dublin group) and the females would enjoy or ignore him according to their personalities. I feel its the only way to guarantee breeding from at least one female.

Target training for AI without knockdowns is another definite possibility but I am not sure how easy it would be to achieve with normal socialised females like these. Could they be trained to present to staff when there is a mating male present? Doubtful perhaps though I think it would be easier with a humanised animal like Asante at Twycross- indeed I'm beginning to think its just about the only way a female with her problems might become pregnant.
 
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Pertinax said:
I would prefer to see them stay as they are rather than unsettling them with further moves but I would still advocate adding a younger male- I am quite sure Kesho would welcome a younger sparring partner (he is a very playful male and grew up with his younger brothers in the Dublin group) and the females would enjoy or ignore him according to their personalities. I feel its the only way to guarantee breeding from at least one female.
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You would still then have the problem further down the line when both males are fully mature. Either the fertile male would need to be moved on, or Kesho would end up being moved to a bachelor group. I imagine Kesho will eventually become the founder of a bachelor group somewhere, I don't see them doing anything else.
 
johnstoni. said:
You would still then have the problem further down the line when both males are fully mature. Either the fertile male would need to be moved on, or Kesho would end up being moved to a bachelor group. I imagine Kesho will eventually become the founder of a bachelor group somewhere, I don't see them doing anything else.
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Or they could move him to an all female group of which all are infertile. But moving him to a bachelor group is probably the most easiest and simplest idea out of the two, possible bachelor groups in the UK;

1. Port Lympne/Howletts.

2. Longleat.

3. Paignton.

However, I really doubt they'll move him to one of these groups, he will probably move to a bachelor group elsewhere in Europe.
 
I know this is going over old ground, but I seriously question why London Zoo is still persisting with gorillas. Mjukuu is fertile and seemed to be a very good mother to Tiny; I saw both of them only 4 days before Tiny died. Mjukuu should be given the opportunity to be a mother again and Effie should also have access to a fertile male. Port Lympne or Howletts would seem to be the best destinations for them. Perhaps Zaire and Kesho could be moved to another zoo and provide company for other gorillas. London Zoo had a small group of elderly chimps for a time and this seemed to work quite well. Perhaps a similar group of gorillas could be created at another zoo.
 
Dassie rat said:
I know this is going over old ground, but I seriously question why London Zoo is still persisting with gorillas. Mjukuu is fertile and seemed to be a very good mother to Tiny; I saw both of them only 4 days before Tiny died. Mjukuu should be given the opportunity to be a mother again and Effie should also have access to a fertile male. Port Lympne or Howletts would seem to be the best destinations for them. Perhaps Zaire and Kesho could be moved to another zoo and provide company for other gorillas. London Zoo had a small group of elderly chimps for a time and this seemed to work quite well. Perhaps a similar group of gorillas could be created at another zoo.
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As Gorillas are the biggest of the apes, the public think of them as the most impressive of the three apes. However, I don't think this is the case, chimps are brilliant when displayed correctly, as are Orangutans. For example, even though some Zoochatters had RotRA at Chester to the public eye Chester can afford to only have the Sumatrans onshow and some Borneans, as if your not a zoo enthusiast then you wouldn't seem bothered how many Orangutans were onshow.

Chimpanzees are a brilliant display, when I was at Edinburgh they were very playful and displayed a lot too.

London won't change over to Chimps or Orangutans, they only opened Gorilla Kingdom a few years ago. My solution;

Send Kesho away to a bachelor group either PL/Howletts, Paignton or possibly Longleat or elsewhere in Europe.

Bring in a new fertile male gorilla, move Zaire to another zoo to be retired and bring in a new female or two, this probably won't happen however, if London want a 'proper' breeding group of gorillas something has to change...
 
Jordan-Jaguar97 said:
Send Kesho away to a bachelor group either PL/Howletts, Paignton or possibly Longleat or elsewhere in Europe.
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I think Kesho is about 12? If so, I can't see him fitting in at Paignton. They already have a 14 year old male, Kumbuka, who has to be kept separate from the group of dominant male and four youngsters.
 
Gigit said:
I think Kesho is about 12? If so, I can't see him fitting in at Paignton. They already have a 14 year old male, Kumbuka, who has to be kept separate from the group of dominant male and four youngsters.
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Yup, Kesho was born 16th February 1999 at Dublin, Lena X Harry.
 
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