Misunderstanding of Evolution

K

Kevin G

Member
I have read many post stating evolution is a theory. This is an abhorrent error that is entrenched in the minds of countless individuals. First of all evolution is the change of allele frequencies over time. Period. What is a theory is Evolution by the means of Natural Selection. There is a big difference here people. Evolution is a fact. Your children have different allele frequencies then yourself, as do your grandchildren. This is evolution. Evolution by the mean of Natural Selection states that individuals who are naturally selected for via genetic drift, dominance, etc. pass on their genetic material and it is this which is the cause of evolution.Creationists believe that God is responsible for this. Because many religious individuals are ignorant to basic science they often converge the two, Natural Selection and Evolution, this is where problems and differences arise.
 
Evolution is a theory but a scientific theory (as opposed to the general use of the word). There’s no such thing as scientific fact. That is why we talk about Einstein’s theory of relativity or Newton’s theory of gravity or Darwin’s theory of evolution. Facts can’t exist in science as life, the universe and zoochat may just be a figment of my imagination. If I exist at all that is?
 
Thanks for the comment and the link. I’ve considered your comments and have to say you seem you have contradicted yourself

"Diction is everything...make sure you understand your definitions."

Diction is everything which is why I used the word ‘fact’ and not ‘law’. I don’t see how you can dispute the accuracy of a word that I have used by substituting it for another. It’s a bit like me stating that aeroplanes can’t land at heliports and you retorting “yes they can…they’re called helicopters”. All of which makes your patronising comments about understanding definition rather grating.
I don’t know how much faith you have in wikipedia but the following link suggests many scientific laws can be inaccurate and therefore can not be thought of as ‘facts’; a fact by definition being indisputable. [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_law]Scientific law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
Okapipr, did u even read the link which you posted. It clearly states that the closest thing which we can reach are facts. Facts and laws are not the same thing. Laws arise from facts and are completely indisputable. Do you even have a degree in the sciences? For example, the Titanic sunk in 1912, that is a fact. Evolution is a fact, we see it all the time. What is a theory is Evolution by the means of Natural Selection. As I posted before, Evolution is simply the change of allele frequencies over time. That is it. You cannot argue it. Give me one example of an organism within a metapopulation whose descendents retain the same allele frequency over the course of infinite time? I am tired of people chewing up science and spitting out utter rubbish just so they can sleep at night with the false notion that their beloved religion remained unscathed. And to Ned, there is no such thing as scientific fact? This is why the world is messed up. Not because of sinners but because of ignorance.
 
How can anyone say there's no such thing as facts? In that case you'd be implying that gravity is merely theory.
 
Where did sinners come from? I'm not attacking science or religion, just stating that everything is questionable. Anyhow, my children having a different allele frequencies isn’t, in itself, evolution as you state it. It becomes evolution if there is a bias towards the proliferation of a particular allele.
 
So Kevin G are you saying that crime and all things bad and wrong in the world are caused because of ignorance?? I don't believe so and if you do believe in evolution then how can you believe that something which developed from one single cell can decide what is wrong and what is right??
I know that this thread is not about religion, but as it has been so tied up with the rest of the discussion so far I just want to say one thing. I know each of us here has a different view on life and have different religions, or none. But I would far rather believe and have faith in a religion that gives me hope and a purpose in life, rather than evolution which basically tells each of us that we are an accident and have no point in life.
 
This could turn into a religion debate and get heated lol.
Personally I don't believe in any gods and I just get on with life because I accept we don't know why we're here ar what happens after we kick the bucket etc. No need to question something we'll never know the answer to :p
 
Indeed :p
 
First of all Doddy, your arguments are such rediculous nonsense I do not even know where to begin. Single celled organisms knowing what is right and whats wrong? Are you serious? Multicellular organisms such as impala, lion and even humans do not always conscribe to these ideals. In nature an organism, including humans, act in their own best interests. If a lion eats a gazelle, then the lion is wrong for killing a fellow animal. But if the impala escapes, then the Impala is depriving the lion of food and so it is wrong. There is no right and wrong, these notions were artificially created by humans to try and structure behavior. Actually evolution tells us the opposite of what you have assigned it. The very basis of evolution by Natural selection is that we are NOT an accident. Individuals who are better suited for their environment are selected for through competition. Offspring inherit these traits and the cycle continues. If anything, evolution gives us a reason to exist. We are here to reproduce, and to help ensure the next generation. Our bodies decompose and the organic compounds and minerals return back to the Earth to be recycled. Religion on the other hand, tends to emphasize death and how to guarantee one's acceptance into an afterlife. And yes crime is caused by ignorance. Ignorance on the part of politicians not being able to reach poverty stricken neighborhoods, ignorance in how many view other races and ethnicities, ignorance in how we deal with the natural world. Religion tells us we have dominance over everything. Trust me it is far more comfortable feeling interconnected with the natural world and that death is not a waste, then to feel this is a temporary transitional space to a higher realm. My body will be reused by bacteria, then vegetation, which in turn will feed herbivores, which in turn will feed carnivores.People of religion tend to be ignorant of science, they do not question the paradigms that have been placed upon them since birth.
 
Hi Kevin G, tell me where does our conscience come from? NO place for it in evolution.
It seems to me only a psychopath does not recognize it's conscience.

How is it that you are right, and the vast majority of people on this planet who do believe in a higher power are wrong? Would sound a little arrogant l think to at least not be open minded? To the possibility of a higher power.
 
Kevin G,

I was born and raised as a Baptist and have been questioning that belief since I was about 6 and noticed that the continents would fit in quite well together (questioning the paradigms presented to me as you put it) and what have I discovered..?

Physics and the theory of evolution (by natural selection) can explain 99.9% of how the universe and the life in it… The remaining 0.1% is unexplainable and most likely explained by a Higher Power, the main issues with the godless universe I have found in my quest for the truth are:

1). The big bang... Maybe the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) will solve some of my issues with this event but it would seem unexplainable to me currently by science alone...
2). The uniformity of the universe... This directly disputes the big bang we know happened (an explosion is by definition not uniform) or suggests intervention of some kind...
3). The weakness of the force of gravity... Physicists are using parallel or multi dimensional universe(s) to theorise this scientific observation, when your getting this level to try and explain the natural universe isn't it just as feasible to add in the option of a Higher Power? Maybe LHC will again provide insight to this but I'm not holding my breath...
4). The limit to the observable universe due to the speed of light... We will never know if the universe is expanding definitively unless we conquer travelling at the speed of light, something we are not going to do, or if it is eternal...

That is without the issues around conscience mentioned earlier which are possibly explainable by us being high intelligence apes living in societies but that theory still has flaws in it, there is a right and wrong...

I find all these points (and many other more minor ones) lead me to a belief in a Higher Power, Intelligent Designer or God and therefore any problem in physics and evolution we have identified can be explained by possible intervention...

Also during my search for the truth I came across a list of people with the highest measured IQ's and three amongst the ten highest of them of them Sidis, Goethe and the modern Langan all saw (or see) reality differently from the rest of us (mere mortals)... All three came up with "a theory of everything" in which they all come to the conclusion the universe is eternal and the most likely explanation for its inception is some form of intelligent design...

So why did I post all that..? Well because I get the feeling you are an atheist of the Richard Dawkins mould, as intent on proseletysing your version of reality as any American TV evangelist and I am happy in fact eager for you to question my belief in a Higher Power...

Also I think this is the wrong forum (pun unfortunately intended) for this type of discussion, maybe the general forum or another website...

I do however agree with you humans are living outside the planets capacity… Although I find your suggestion that it is religions fault as laughable as you seem to find Doddy posts… It is the fault of our current economic model and the move to central banking, fiat money and flaws in democracy not religion that has lead to the current destruction we see happening… In fact religious people were the first environmentalists (they recognised there was a problem and moved to fix it as the good stewards of beasts and earth the bible told them to be or “dominance over everything” as you put it), your self profit motive belief flies directly in the face of conservation…

I find you ridiculous to suggest that religion is causing, “Ignorance on the part of politicians not being able to reach poverty stricken neighbourhoods”… In my country New Zealand a comprehensive system of welfare including benefits and housing was set up by compassionate Catholics and has lifted literally countless New Zealanders out of poverty… What you seem to suggest is libertarianism is the cure for societies ills as this is the political equivalent of Darwinism, hardly going to relieve poverty methinks…

Crime is caused by ignorance, yes, but not scientific ignorance or religions as you seem to suggest… As a Police Officer I can count the number of Christians I’ve arrested on one hand…

Before you tell us religion is responsible for the evils of the world, given the above, I suggest you read some books on political theory, history, the drivers of crime and poverty and physics rather than re-spurting what you read in the latest Dawkin’s book on here…

I also think that maybe you should take anyone talking about the "theory of evolution" to be referring to the "theory of evolution by natural selection", build a bridge and get over it or let people have their beliefs... While I've come to the conclusion organised religion is about one human taking power from another I respect the right of others to believe whatever they want religion wise… Just as the men of genius who founded your country and wrote that fantastic constitution (which your politicians should read) did, many of whom I suspect were doubters like yourself...
 
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I may not be the best debater in this world, but I know Kevin G, that after coming to my own conclusions, it makes more sense to me for to believe there is a higher power. As NZ Jermemy said, I respect others beliefs but I simply want to state my opinion on this thread as a christian (another baptist too NZ Jeremy!!)
 
I have read this thread with interest and, although myself an atheist, I find NZ Jeremy's post a most compelling argument and one of the best that I have yet heard when it comes to Christianity (or any other religion for that matter). I will, however, say this: in the middle ages, people had no plausible alternate theories as to how we came here other than so-called intelligent design. As such, scholars of the day believed this was how we came to be here and it took a long time to relinquish these old ideas when Darwin released "On the Origin of Species".

Just because we do not have any other explanation for something (eg. what caused the Big Bang) does not mean it was caused by a divine being, just that we do not yet have a solution to the problem.
 
I'm not advocating adherence to a religion (as I said I've come to the conclusion they are mainly about one human taking power from another) but I am advocating belief in a Higher Power...

A point well made Redpanda about the Big Bang and after spending a long period of time searching, reading and watching the arguments as our knowledge currently sits I find my beliefs the most plausible to my common sense... I am however open to change as more evidence becomes uncovered, its why what is going on at the Large Hadron Collider is so interesting...
 
@NZ Jeremy,

"We will never know if the universe is expanding definitively unless we conquer travelling at the speed of light, something we are not going to do..."

If you can present me, right here and now, with hard and incontrovertible evidence that we will never find a way to travel faster than lightspeed, I will gladly accept your original statement as hard fact.

Until then... I tend to believe that such limits are nothing more than modern superstition. It was also said we would never fly, or land on the moon. Heck, people used to believe that traveling faster than about 25MPH would suck the breath right out of your body.

Until someone comes up with a way to know for sure, your belief and mine are just that - beliefs. Either one of us could be wrong, or right, or a combination of the two.

We now return to our regularly scheduled zoo chat. ;-)
 
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As said earlier in the thread, incontrovertible evidence is not something readily available in science I would however point you in the direction of the theory of relativity...

You might as well say "can you provide me with evidence we will never invent a machine to dispense with gravity" well no, because I'm not a time traveller...

I do however think that the universe has physical limits, gravity and the speed of light being two of them... Unless we start to seriously start to deal with Global Warming humanity will be too busy trying to feed, water, clothe and shelter ourselves to be inventing light speed space craft...
 
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