Respect for Big Cats
- Thread starter Ara
- Start date
I think in most cases it would be for the control of the animal to prevent it injuring or killing people nearby. It is not necessary though if the animals are not given the chance to come into contact with people.
I was recently looking at a lion project in Zimbabwe where they are training captive lions to hunt so they can be released into enclosures of several thousand acres and live naturally. The cubs that are born will then be able to be released into protected areas with low Lion populations, to boost populations as well increasing genetic diversity.
In the photos the people are walking with almost adult lions to take them to animals to hunt. Later in the day one of the Lions mauled one of the people in the photo. I suspect that is just accepted as a risk of the job.
They have found that it not a very good practice to release Lions Habituated with people, which is why they can only release the next generation raised with no human contact. The famous one which was said to be a success was Elsa who had a book and movie "Born Free" about her. When she died the Kenyan authorities claimed she died of worms but decades later it has been found that she was shot after killing and eating a game warden who was looking after her. Her 3 cubs where also habituated to people. One was shot killing cattle another after it killed a herds-boy looking after cattle. The last was shot ofter it was claimed to be stalking a woman. None of the cubs stayed together or joined prides, they all remained solitary.
Sorry to get off topic but I have been reading about this as thought it was appropriate.
I was recently looking at a lion project in Zimbabwe where they are training captive lions to hunt so they can be released into enclosures of several thousand acres and live naturally. The cubs that are born will then be able to be released into protected areas with low Lion populations, to boost populations as well increasing genetic diversity.
In the photos the people are walking with almost adult lions to take them to animals to hunt. Later in the day one of the Lions mauled one of the people in the photo. I suspect that is just accepted as a risk of the job.
They have found that it not a very good practice to release Lions Habituated with people, which is why they can only release the next generation raised with no human contact. The famous one which was said to be a success was Elsa who had a book and movie "Born Free" about her. When she died the Kenyan authorities claimed she died of worms but decades later it has been found that she was shot after killing and eating a game warden who was looking after her. Her 3 cubs where also habituated to people. One was shot killing cattle another after it killed a herds-boy looking after cattle. The last was shot ofter it was claimed to be stalking a woman. None of the cubs stayed together or joined prides, they all remained solitary.
Sorry to get off topic but I have been reading about this as thought it was appropriate.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
My discomfort in regard to big cats on a leash is less about "respect", but more based on security aspects. Even a very strong man won't be able to hold back a determined big cat, no matter how well trained he or the feline is. And I wouldn't count photo sessions with visitors or, respectively, mutilating & killing visitors & staff as "great enrichment" (even if the cat might think otherwise in the latter case...).
Most zoo animals are confined to the same enclosures for many years or their entire lifetimes. Seems to me that the ability to safely take particular animals to other areas and be able to do different things may be good for their wellbeing in captivity. Is that not worth anything?
Of course their are additional risks and they need to be carefully assessed and managed.
Of course their are additional risks and they need to be carefully assessed and managed.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
1. Especially in terms of animals in breeding programmes, chances of moving now and then are pretty high. Additionally, most animals I know of aren't that interested in leaving their cozy territory when all requirements are met. "Home Sweet Home"...
2. It depends on which species You take out for a walk on a leash. A calm Llama, especially if it is called "Horst"? No problem. A friendly Miniature Pony? No problem. A well-behaving coati? No problem.
So what about: A tiger? An adult chimp? A rhino? A Komodo Dragon? Problem, there we go...
It's one thing if You take a people-friendly member of a relatively low-risk and manageable species with You to show it around-it's another if the particular species is generally more prone to wreck havoc and cause major damages while being hardly restrainable. That are not just "additional risks", but risks in general involved. Every handling of animals in zoos should be as riskless and safe as possible for both animals, staff, visitors and the general public. Flaunting around the zoo with a potentially very dangerous animal on a leash certainly is not a safe & riskless code of practice, no matter how nice and "tame" the particular tiger or Komodo Dragon usually behaves-as in the case something does happen, the s*** hits the fan big time. That's why most major zoos do not practice and tolerate such behaviour-also because it generates too often the wrong impression on visitors and the public in general ("Those tigers are all nice and cuddly tabbies-let's touch them!").
2. It depends on which species You take out for a walk on a leash. A calm Llama, especially if it is called "Horst"? No problem. A friendly Miniature Pony? No problem. A well-behaving coati? No problem.
So what about: A tiger? An adult chimp? A rhino? A Komodo Dragon? Problem, there we go...
It's one thing if You take a people-friendly member of a relatively low-risk and manageable species with You to show it around-it's another if the particular species is generally more prone to wreck havoc and cause major damages while being hardly restrainable. That are not just "additional risks", but risks in general involved. Every handling of animals in zoos should be as riskless and safe as possible for both animals, staff, visitors and the general public. Flaunting around the zoo with a potentially very dangerous animal on a leash certainly is not a safe & riskless code of practice, no matter how nice and "tame" the particular tiger or Komodo Dragon usually behaves-as in the case something does happen, the s*** hits the fan big time. That's why most major zoos do not practice and tolerate such behaviour-also because it generates too often the wrong impression on visitors and the public in general ("Those tigers are all nice and cuddly tabbies-let's touch them!").
Cats on leashes
Many species of animals suffer from boredom in a captive environment. Cats are very high on that list. As I earlier stated and know from experience conditioned animals thrive better from being stimulated in various manners. Walking to differing areas, scent marking, scratching a few trees can be quite good for them both mentally and physically.
Animals in programs are not moved every other day. It is generally maybe years or never in moving from one facility to another.
The is nothing in life that does not have a risk to it. Is is calculated to take any animal out, yes. Can it be safely done, yes. Does the public gather an empathy for an animal as a result of seeing them up close, hopefully yes.
I have visited a number of European zoos and as a general impression find them boring, old, and not really too memorable. Maybe a few presentations and something more than just sticking animals in enclosures might make a positive impact.
Just my thoughts, I sure that others will not see it that way, but that is life.
Many species of animals suffer from boredom in a captive environment. Cats are very high on that list. As I earlier stated and know from experience conditioned animals thrive better from being stimulated in various manners. Walking to differing areas, scent marking, scratching a few trees can be quite good for them both mentally and physically.
Animals in programs are not moved every other day. It is generally maybe years or never in moving from one facility to another.
The is nothing in life that does not have a risk to it. Is is calculated to take any animal out, yes. Can it be safely done, yes. Does the public gather an empathy for an animal as a result of seeing them up close, hopefully yes.
I have visited a number of European zoos and as a general impression find them boring, old, and not really too memorable. Maybe a few presentations and something more than just sticking animals in enclosures might make a positive impact.
Just my thoughts, I sure that others will not see it that way, but that is life.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
@ptig: I can only repeat myself: Walking big cats on a leash is a way too big risk, no matter how "nicely" stimulating You think it might be for the cat (including the maulting & killing...). There are many other ways to fight boredom without involving such unnecessary risks. It's one thing if You have to do a needed procedure that poses a certain risk-and another if You deliberately choose unnecessary actions which pose a very high risk. "Safety" is something else than leading around a big cat on a leash...Your "logic" could also be applied to all the other animals in a zoo: why not take out the Black Mamba to show it a bigger part of the world? Or Polar Bears and Hippos? Or the Gorilla Silverback? They'd certainly "appretiate" that just as much as the tigers...
Like I wrote before: I doubt that the impact on the people is a good one. Also see Ara's thoughts in the starting post...
So, in which European zoos exactly have You been to that justify Your devastating judgement? And to which better zoos can You compare them to? "In August was the Jackal born; The Rains fell in September; "Now such a fearful flood as this," Says he, "I can"t remember!""
Kipling, The Undertakers
Like I wrote before: I doubt that the impact on the people is a good one. Also see Ara's thoughts in the starting post...
So, in which European zoos exactly have You been to that justify Your devastating judgement? And to which better zoos can You compare them to? "In August was the Jackal born; The Rains fell in September; "Now such a fearful flood as this," Says he, "I can"t remember!""
Kipling, The Undertakers
Animal enrichment
@ Sun Wukong- I too tire of repeating myself. Not to be too condescending I am not sure you have much of an understanding of the subject of leash training and it's benefits. All animals in a zoological collection should have some form of stimulation. Of course their are restraints due to the particular animal, trained staff, time, benefits, etc.
I cannot comment with any authority on Black mambas, possibly you can.
The zoos that I visited in Europe are Koln, Krefeld, London, and both institutions in Berlin. Certainly not a large percentage, but I do talk to a few people as well.
@ Sun Wukong- I too tire of repeating myself. Not to be too condescending I am not sure you have much of an understanding of the subject of leash training and it's benefits. All animals in a zoological collection should have some form of stimulation. Of course their are restraints due to the particular animal, trained staff, time, benefits, etc.
I cannot comment with any authority on Black mambas, possibly you can.
The zoos that I visited in Europe are Koln, Krefeld, London, and both institutions in Berlin. Certainly not a large percentage, but I do talk to a few people as well.
ptig, on a documentary that was filmed a few months ago on the sumatrans, there was a large parcal of land featured that the bengals are taken to. It looked like possible the best enrichment i have seen, a alrge section of natural land, where theye can explore with tehre keepers. Can you elaborate on what this place is.
tigers walking
The total land area of Dreamworld is 160 acres. We have a fenced in area out the back that we use for filming and just to let the tigers hang at different times.
We also have a large plantation area that is frequently depicted that we walk cats every morning as well. They really enjoy getting out to these areas.
The total land area of Dreamworld is 160 acres. We have a fenced in area out the back that we use for filming and just to let the tigers hang at different times.
We also have a large plantation area that is frequently depicted that we walk cats every morning as well. They really enjoy getting out to these areas.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
@ptig: I'm equally tired of having to point out the obvious difference between inevitable & checkable and unjustifiable, preventable risk-taking. Moving very dangerous animals (no matter whether it's a tiger or a Black Mamba) around for no real reasons, without any real control and "just for fun", certainly is an example of the latter category. I do get the feeling that You don't seem to have much of an understanding of the lack of safety/control and lack of justified sense of such unnecessary & risky "exercises" You call leash training...Let's hope nobody is going to be killed there when something goes (surely) awry.
London is an old zoo that might already have had its best time, and Berlin's both zoos partly have to fight with old buildings, finances and stubborn directors, but nevertheless do a decent/good job. Similar things can be said about little Krefeld, and Cologne/Köln Zoo (there is no "Koln" zoo) is surely one of the better German zoos; however, there are plenty of other European (or American) major zoos of at least the same quality-but none of them appretiates its staff taking unnecessary and avoidable risks. Makes one wonder when You've been to those few zoos, to whom You talked and which zoos (not counting Australian theme parks with inbred tiger colour morphs on leashes...) You compare them to.... Thinking about it, Safaripark Stukenbrock might be just the perfect European "zoo" for You...
Safaripark Stukenbrock
London is an old zoo that might already have had its best time, and Berlin's both zoos partly have to fight with old buildings, finances and stubborn directors, but nevertheless do a decent/good job. Similar things can be said about little Krefeld, and Cologne/Köln Zoo (there is no "Koln" zoo) is surely one of the better German zoos; however, there are plenty of other European (or American) major zoos of at least the same quality-but none of them appretiates its staff taking unnecessary and avoidable risks. Makes one wonder when You've been to those few zoos, to whom You talked and which zoos (not counting Australian theme parks with inbred tiger colour morphs on leashes...) You compare them to.... Thinking about it, Safaripark Stukenbrock might be just the perfect European "zoo" for You...
Safaripark Stukenbrock
Last edited:
cats on leashes
@sun wukong it appears that we are both wasting each others time. As I pointed out before I do not believe that you have any expertise in the matter being discussed. While I do appreciate your "feelings" they are just that.
At Dreamworld they do not just casually take tigers for a stroll. It is a conditioned and trained exercise that you have no idea about. Your comment about white tigers is quite hurtful dig. Not. The white tigers at Dreamworld have contributed one million dollars to in situ conservation and I sleep well knowing that they have had a real impact on conservation.
@sun wukong it appears that we are both wasting each others time. As I pointed out before I do not believe that you have any expertise in the matter being discussed. While I do appreciate your "feelings" they are just that.
At Dreamworld they do not just casually take tigers for a stroll. It is a conditioned and trained exercise that you have no idea about. Your comment about white tigers is quite hurtful dig. Not. The white tigers at Dreamworld have contributed one million dollars to in situ conservation and I sleep well knowing that they have had a real impact on conservation.
Last edited:
NZ Jeremy
Well-Known Member
Its very hard to respect you ptig when you think everything you and your employer do is infallable and anyone who disagrees is a *****...
It is especially disagreeable when your employer is a large theme park who has their tigers as a profit boosting attraction nothing more, you can kid yourself into thinking they care about helping conservation but what percentage of Dreamworld's turnover goes towards conservation, how does this compare to zoological institutions..? My guess is very poorly and that the money given in no way compares to the extra revenue the tigers generate...
I know what Sun Wukong does for a living and can guess at his experience even though I don't like him much he is eminately more qualified to comment on this than you...
It is especially disagreeable when your employer is a large theme park who has their tigers as a profit boosting attraction nothing more, you can kid yourself into thinking they care about helping conservation but what percentage of Dreamworld's turnover goes towards conservation, how does this compare to zoological institutions..? My guess is very poorly and that the money given in no way compares to the extra revenue the tigers generate...
I know what Sun Wukong does for a living and can guess at his experience even though I don't like him much he is eminately more qualified to comment on this than you...
Last edited:
@NZ Jeremy- I certainly do not think that anyone including myself or employer is infallible. I do though think that it is far better to argue a point based on some sort of factual thought than how you feel.
The fact that Dreamworld makes money from having the tigers is fine by me. It means that there are sufficient revenues to make the display better, give people a different type of attraction, and give funding to conservation. I certainly applaud zoos that do give support to conservation and fully do not think that every place can do as much.
I would be curious as to why Sun Wukong is more qualified than I to discuss the pros and cons of leash training of cats. Sounds like you are just trying to stir. He can certainly have his opinion, whether I like it or not.
The fact that Dreamworld makes money from having the tigers is fine by me. It means that there are sufficient revenues to make the display better, give people a different type of attraction, and give funding to conservation. I certainly applaud zoos that do give support to conservation and fully do not think that every place can do as much.
I would be curious as to why Sun Wukong is more qualified than I to discuss the pros and cons of leash training of cats. Sounds like you are just trying to stir. He can certainly have his opinion, whether I like it or not.
Jeremy. I think of it this way. Tiger Island is a business within Dreamworld, just like the cafes. They have a shop and other income generating tools. So I would say that, from the income generated (and this is only a guess) by the tiger island facilites that they have contributed considerably more of their profits to conservaation than zoological institutes. I am not bagging zoos. How can a zoo donate profits they don't have. So yes, maybe dreamworld does run tiger island as a profitable attraction but this gives them the extra money zoos don't have to donate.
I would be interested to know how many staff currently work at all of Tiger Islands facilites. including the shop, anyone???
also I have also seen the documentary Zoo Boy is talking about and it was quite an impressive facility, it is huge and the fences shown would meet even NSW tough standards. The ability to scent mark new areas each day can not be argued against. this would not be possible if the cats were not leash trained.
I've seen some great footage of the cubs chasing birds and stalking lizards, great enrichment. There are many benefits of leash training. Of course there are risks, but from my understanding tiger walks are limited once the genral public enters the park anyway.
I would be interested to know how many staff currently work at all of Tiger Islands facilites. including the shop, anyone???
also I have also seen the documentary Zoo Boy is talking about and it was quite an impressive facility, it is huge and the fences shown would meet even NSW tough standards. The ability to scent mark new areas each day can not be argued against. this would not be possible if the cats were not leash trained.
I've seen some great footage of the cubs chasing birds and stalking lizards, great enrichment. There are many benefits of leash training. Of course there are risks, but from my understanding tiger walks are limited once the genral public enters the park anyway.
Tigers
The total nuimber of handlers for the cats is 9 and the total for merchandise shop and food outlet would be another 7 or 8.
All cats are walked prior to normal operating hours and current 14 month old cubs are walked during operating hours.
Has NZ Jeremy ever been to Dreamworld?
The total nuimber of handlers for the cats is 9 and the total for merchandise shop and food outlet would be another 7 or 8.
All cats are walked prior to normal operating hours and current 14 month old cubs are walked during operating hours.
Has NZ Jeremy ever been to Dreamworld?