Six Flags Discovery Kingdom Six Flags Discovery Kingdom

Oh, just a quickie. I don't have any real problem with elephant rides either, as long as the elephants involved are well treated.

Busch, when they built their parks, apparently took great care to clearly and decisively separate the 'zoo' portions of the park from those containing the rides and non-animal attractions. I have absolutely no problem with this sort of arrangement. Disney has clearly done the same thing, placing their zoo elements in a park entirely separate from the main theme park. Again, no issues with that specific element.

Now, jump back to Six Flags. They took a park that was never designed to accommodate a split arrangement of that sort, and just randomly plopped down rides anywhere they could. The results are blatantly obvious, both in aesthetics and noise level. To this day, I remain highly concerned about the effects of the coasters and carny attractions' non-stop audible barrage on what few animals SFDK has left, particularly the big cats (who have hearing that is, by nature, considerably more acute than any human). I also have to wonder what frequencies the coasters and other attractions might be producing that are inaudible to humans, but still within the range of, say, a tiger or cougar.

In summary: I have no problem if a park clearly separates its thrill-ride and zoological elements, both physically and in terms of department and budget.

What I have a huge problem with is combining the two elements right on top of each other, as Six Flags has so badly done. You're going to have to go a very long way to convince me that all the animals in such a situation suffer no long-term harm, including the elephants.

You say you saw nothing really wrong when you went to SFDK. The last time I was there (about two years ago), I clearly remember pacing behavior on the part of several big cats, and the size of the lion enclosure vs. how many animals were in it was shameful. "Cramped" would be putting it mildly. Don't even get me started on the lack of enrichment.

I suspect we're going to agree to disagree, but my feeling on the place is they should simply get rid of all animal elements, and revert to the pure theme park they seem to want to be.

Actually, I'm not so sure we have to "agree to disagree". You've given me a lot more that I can agree with -- and I really appreciate your explanation of the difference in Busch Gardens and DAK, and its cool to see someone else not bowing to the political correctness of criticizing elephant rides. As I said, I did a very quick tour of SFDK. I took a quick look at the animals and saw nothing "obvious" that would indicate poor care, though admittedly some of the big cats and the elephants were already in for the night. I saw no pacing. It was a warm day and so most of the animals were laying out, very inactive.

Let me address your charge that they: "just randomly plopped down rides anywhere they could" and "combining the two elements right on top of each other, as Six Flags has so badly done". When I was there, I definitely took a look at this. While I'd agree with you that they did not separate the animals from the rides as well as BG or DAK, I think your "right on top of each other" is a gross exaggeration. Take a look at the map of SFDK:
Park Map: Six Flags Discovery Kingdom

As I remembered, the map shows that the main big (loud) roller coasters are all up at the front of the park. None of the animal exhibits are directly below them, and few are even close. The far end of the elephants' complex in near one coaster, and on the other side, the Sea Lion stadium in near another coaster. Besides these 2 examples, almost all of the animals exhibits are spread around the outside of the park, while the rides are mostly on the interior. Could I hear the coasters from the animal exhibits? Yes, but I didn't think it was obnoxiously loud, and certainly not nearly as loud as if they were directly below the coasters.

Take a look at the map -- with an open mind. Maybe SFDK has cleaned up its act a bit since your last visit, 2 years ago. Perhaps they truly did have some "on top of each other" problems back then. I don't think they do now. I'll also tell you that I agree on one other point -- I too visited this park a decade ago, when they were Marine World, and I liked it better back then. So my conclusion: SFDK is indeed flawed, but now nearly as bad as you think they are.
 
Not that I condone Six Flags in anyway, but pacing is not as big a deal as many of you are making it out to be. An animal may pace in anticipation of a feeding or a training session. An animal may also pace when exploring its exhibit. It should not be regarded as that negative of a behavior.
 
If individual human visitors are claiming that they can hear rollercoasters at Six Flags while they are viewing animal exhibits, then spare a thought for the actual creatures in the enclosures. Big cats have five times better hearing than humans, elephants have much better hearing than humans, and dolphins have anywhere from three to eight times better hearing depending on what website one studies. My solitary point in this message is that if humans are hearing rollercoasters around the grounds of Six Flags, then the various animal species kept there are hearing the racket with greater clarity and increased volume. Is that a positive thing?;)
 
My solitary point in this message is that if humans are hearing rollercoasters around the grounds of Six Flags, then the various animal species kept there are hearing the racket with greater clarity and increased volume. Is that a positive thing?;)

Not sure if it's a positive thing, but is it a negative thing? Again, IF the coasters were right on top of the animal exhibits, that truly would be bad. But when I heard the coasters (and the people screaming on them), it was a distant noise. I also could hear the nearby highway. To be honest, most of America's (and I'd guess the world's) zoos are built somewhat close to major highways and the sounds of traffic. San Diego, Omaha, Riverbanks, Dallas, LA, Milwaukee, and many others are built very close to highways. Bronx and National have subways nearby. Others are in the midst of lots of urban traffic. Cheyenne Mountain even allows cars to drive right through the zoo. So while it's true that the elephants, cats, and dolphins can hear the coaster noise at SFDK, BG, and DAK, I don't think that noise is any louder than the noise caused my highways, city traffic, subways, or even overhead planes at other zoos. (Of course the only way to know for sure would be to go and measure the noise levels, which I haven't done.)

So is it bad for these wild animals to hear any human noise? If it is, then we might as well surrender to the IDA/PETA zoo-haters and close down all of our zoos. I'm not, however, advocating keeping zoo animals in the midst of LOUD noise. I'm just requesting some "balance" to this debate. Some are of the mode that, just because THEY find the sounds of roller coasters (and people screaming on them) annoying, then so must the animals. I'm just suggesting that the noise is only annoying if it's too loud. But what is "too loud", I don't know.
 
When I was at SDZ and the LA Zoo for that matter I did not hear any cars or noticeable noises. I really do not think it is necessary to bring down some great zoos to defend a coaster park that shouldn't even be accredited by the AZA.
 
I really do not think it is necessary to bring down some great zoos to defend a coaster park that shouldn't even be accredited by the AZA.

The San Diego Zoo is my FAVORITE zoo in the world! Who is "bringing them down"?? I just said that there is "human noise" in that zoo (like in almost any zoo). Over by the big raptor flight cages (near Ituri Forest), you can clearly hear Highway 163 below, just as you can from the Sky Safari. For that matter, over by the African Kopje exhibit and by the koalas, on the other side of the fence is a huge inner city playground, with hundreds of kids making a lot of noise playing basketball. I do NOT think this is bad, but it is "human noise".

BRhino, again, have you been to Six Flags Discovery Kingdom, or are you just reacting to what you've read? They ARE accreditted (many times) by AZA, so there must be some good reasons for that. For someone who's never been there to say "they shouldn't be accreditted" is unfair. At least KC7GR's critique is based on his own personal visits and observation, which I totally respect.
 
Thanks, I've seen enough of them...

@ANyhuis,

Thanks for the link, but I could have saved you the trouble. I've visited the park at least four times since 2000, and I'm (unfortunately) all too familiar with their layout.

With each visit, the place just got worse to my perceptions. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, remember that I was a long-term regular at the original Marine World. More specifically, I made visits there practically every other weekend for the better part of TWENTY-SEVEN YEARS.

To say I came to know the park and its staff extremely well would be an understatement. The entire place had an air of 'family' about it that was shared by staff and regulars alike. That's a big part of what made the takeover by SF so painful, because that air utterly vanished within less than a year of the takeover.

Whether you believe it or not, I tried to see the good in the takeover. I really did. I tried hard to convince myself that the influx of money and new management would be a Good Thing.

That was before I saw nearly every spare bit of space in the park taken up by rides. Areas that had formerly offered a quiet and shady place to just sit, rest, and contemplate had gone the way of the dodo.

Let's see, what else turned me against them? Heck, I could write a book, but...

--Petting zoo (a great favorite with the kids) removed.

--Big-screen video monitor mounted at the whale stadium, apparently for the sole purpose of blasting commercials at the audience before the show (which, BTW, is utterly at odds with the mood the original park tried -- and succeeded -- in setting).

--Permanently closing off the underwater viewing windows at the whale/dolphin stadium, for no good reason that I could fathom.

--Background music at their laughable excuse for a dolphin "petting pool" turned up so loud it'd give you headaches.

--NONE of the original Marine World animal care/training staff (that I knew, at least) deciding to stay on, despite decent offers.

--NO place in the park that is free of some sort of roller coaster noise, often obnoxiously loud.

--Negligence in maintenance being responsible for the death of a giraffe.

--Decommissioning and removal of the gorgeous custom-made dolphin fountain in the main square.

I could go on, but I think you get the idea. I believe that I have given SFDK more than their fair share of chance to prove they can do as good or better than the original Marine World.

They have, in my (admittedly somewhat biased) opinion, utterly failed in that regard. This is where, I think, we will probably agree to disagree. If that is the case, then so be it.

I've said it before and I will say it again: This is a park that needs to firmly and permanently decide, one way or the other, what it's going to be. If "zoo/oceanarium," then either get rid of the thrill rides completely or split the park CLEANLY in half, as Busch and DAK have done, and give said rides their own space, island, or whatever.

If "theme park," and they are not willing to split the place, then get rid of ALL animal elements and exhibits. Transfer them to other zoos and oceanariums where they will (hopefully) be assured of better living conditions.

Again, this all assumes that SF, as a company, is still around in a year or so. Despite the pontificating of upper management, I have serious doubts along those lines.

Happy travels.
 
Yes and no...

Not that I condone Six Flags in anyway, but pacing is not as big a deal as many of you are making it out to be. An animal may pace in anticipation of a feeding or a training session. An animal may also pace when exploring its exhibit. It should not be regarded as that negative of a behavior.

Agreed, up to a point. However, there's a world of difference between the kind of anticipatory pacing you describe (which I've seen and understand about), and the kind of "I'm going nucking FUTZ!" pacing of an animal that can't decide what to do with itself.

In any case, how much "exploring" is really needed when the exhibit enclosure could be covered by a human walking around it in less than two minutes?
 
To say I came to know the park and its staff extremely well would be an understatement. The entire place had an air of 'family' about it that was shared by staff and regulars alike. That's a big part of what made the takeover by SF so painful, because that air utterly vanished within less than a year of the takeover.

--Decommissioning and removal of the gorgeous custom-made dolphin fountain in the main square.

KC7GR,
This is NOT meant to be a "defense" of Discovery Kingdom, as I can tell your points are well researched and based on personal observation (unlike the based-on-what-they've-read blasts made by others). I just want to bring up some points that may be, at least possibly, explanatory.

First, I was not paying attention closely when the Six Flags corporation bought out Marine World. Was this takeover: (a) a hostile corporate buyout, where MW was doing fine but 6F just offered more money; or (b) MW was going under fast, and 6F "came to the rescue", taking a financial risk to "save" this park from financial demise? I truly do not know which situation it was, but I suspect it was the latter. In Denver, the former Ocean Journeys aquarium was about to go bankrupt and shut down forever, until the corporate restaurant chain Landry's bought them out and put their own imprint on the aquarium. And who could fault them? If this is the case with MW, then can you really fault Six Flags for putting their own corporate imprint on the park? Is it bad that they (presumably) took a great financial risk, and for that risk they might want to try and make some money? For example, taking down that fountain might be a part of "putting on their own imprint". Maybe it was a clear symbol of the old "Marine World" park which they wanted to remove.

That was before I saw nearly every spare bit of space in the park taken up by rides. Areas that had formerly offered a quiet and shady place to just sit, rest, and contemplate had gone the way of the dodo.

--NO place in the park that is free of some sort of roller coaster noise, often obnoxiously loud.

I've said it before and I will say it again: This is a park that needs to firmly and permanently decide, one way or the other, what it's going to be. If "zoo/oceanarium," then either get rid of the thrill rides completely or split the park CLEANLY in half, as Busch and DAK have done, and give said rides their own space, island, or whatever. If "theme park," and they are not willing to split the place, then get rid of ALL animal elements and exhibits. Transfer them to other zoos and oceanariums where they will (hopefully) be assured of better living conditions.

As I said in my previous post, perhaps they already HAVE made this "split the park CLEANLY in half" as you suggest. But instead of a geographical split down the middle, they've taken the "pizza" and cut off a outer ring. That "ring" is where all the animal exhibits are, with the rides all on the inside of that ring. Is this so unacceptable? And while I admit that the roller coaster noise can be quite loud (in the rides area, yes, but "obnoxiously" is in the ears of the beholder), I did not find it at all loud in the animal areas. I'll also admit that the inner rides area is indeed quite crowded with rides -- you can see that on the map. But that's something for the rides-fans to complain about, not animal-fans.

--Petting zoo (a great favorite with the kids) removed.
--Permanently closing off the underwater viewing windows at the whale/dolphin stadium, for no good reason that I could fathom.

One thing a corporation does is market research or "market testing". Isn't it possible that they saw the petting zoo (which I'm a huge advocate of) and underwater viewing windows simply weren't getting much use? If so, it's an ordinary business decision to close down such things.

--Big-screen video monitor mounted at the whale stadium, apparently for the sole purpose of blasting commercials at the audience before the show

Sea World has these big-screen monitors too. Certainly one reason may be to "blast commercials", but at least at Sea World they are very nice for giving the audience in the far back rows some up close views of the killer whale(s) and their trainers.

--Background music at their laughable excuse for a dolphin "petting pool" turned up so loud it'd give you headaches.

I can't agree or disagree, except to say I went to the dolphin petting pool and I didn't experience this at all. Maybe the speakers weren't working properly on the day you were there.

--Negligence in maintenance being responsible for the death of a giraffe.

There probably was some real mistakes made -- as there are at all zoos. Apparently the AZA looked at those mistakes and judged that they were not serious enough to withdraw SFDK's accreditation.

--NONE of the original Marine World animal care/training staff (that I knew, at least) deciding to stay on, despite decent offers.

This is actually quite common when there is a corporate takeover. Employees are often very loyal to the old management and they feel that reporting to new management would be "disloyal". Heck, many years ago my wife and I left a church for similar reasons, as we didn't want to start a new loyalty to a new pastor, when the old one was removed -- someone we were very loyal to.

In conclusion, I do NOT disagree with you, at least not much. I simply think that there MIGHT be legitimate reasons for all the things annoying you about SFDK. More than anything, however, you might still have an injured loyalty to the old Marine World -- and nothing Six Flags does will ever win over your loyalty.

Thanks for your thoughts.
 
Legitimate? Possibly...

Figured it was better to make a new post than deal with multi-quotes.

On the takeover: It was complicated. My understanding is the park had originally borrowed money from the City of Vallejo. The city had, in fact, taken out bond measures to help finance the move and construction of the new Marine World.

Unfortunately (and to this day, I'm still not sure how this happened), some very power-hungry people got into control of the new park when it first opened. The ongoing power struggles between the "Marine World Foundation" and the park's actual owner, Mike Demetrios, had a crippling effect on the park's ability to make improvements.

This, in the long run, resulted in lower-than-anticipated attendance, which also meant lower-than-anticipated income. It was during one of these "slim" times that the City of Vallejo, for reasons that remain unclear, suddenly cut the expected repayment period for the bonds short, and demanded that the park pay off its entire debt immediately.

Marine World, at that time, had no way to do so. The end result was the Vallejo City Council suddenly found themselves owners of a park they had not the slightest clue how to run, nor did they care to try and learn on the fly.

The City sold the ownership to (if I recall correctly) a management and holding company called Premier Parks. Premier Parks then turned around and bought out Six Flags, and that's where the trouble really began.

So -- Yes, it is possible that there were "legitimate" BUSINESS reasons for some of the changes. But something like closing off access to the underwater viewing windows at the whale stadium makes NO sense to me whatsoever, business or otherwise. They were no real burden on the maintenance department (an occasional swipe with Windex and a squeegee, and they were fine), and they were much enjoyed by people and animals alike (the dolphins were very much into people-watching).

And there is, of course, still the matter of closing down another popular attraction, such as the petting zoo, and being careless enough to let a preventable fire break out and kill a giraffe in the process. And I still believe it would never have happened under the original management.

On physical design and ride placement: The division between rides and animal areas was never clean. This is, again, because the park was originally laid out as a combination wildlife park and oceanarium, period. The original owners and management NEVER anticipated adding rides, ergo they did not design for them.

Looking back in my memories of the place, I can see the "ring" structure you describe. However, there's a segment of very loud and obnoxious coaster that extends out right next to the dolphin contact pool. Honestly, that was part of what contributed to my headache last time I was there.

Sorry... The 'Ring' structure just doesn't work for me. It needs to be a clean, clear, half-and-half division, just like the other parks I've mentioned have already done.

On the monitor at the whale stadium: I've never seen it used for any purpose other than to air obnoxious ads. In fact, I don't think they even have camera feeds into the thing. That particular stadium simply isn't big enough to need such.

Sea World's whale stadium is more than twice the size of SFDK's. Given that, it is very understandable why they would need the big-screen hardware.

No, I see that particular bit of silliness as nothing more than the current park management trying to do a Sea World "wannabe" number. If that is indeed the case, it was another money-wasting epic fail.

And, finally, on injured loyalty: I would be lying if I said I was immune to that, and didn't feel anything along those lines. A friend of mine and I were most definitely part of the original park's extended family, right to the point where we got invited to a very exclusive employee-only talent show one night.

That was only one small part of what made the old park so special, and what made the takeover such a tremendous shock.

I wish I could fully convey, in this forum, how truly special the old Marine World was, and how badly 6F screwed the new version up (and over). Unfortunately, typed characters glowing on a screen just don't cut it in that regard. I think you'd have to sit down with myself and my friend over dinner, and even then it'd take us a couple of hours to start to get the point across.

For now, suffice to say your last statement is dead-nuts on: The ONLY thing 6F can do that would, in my eyes, atone for the damage they've caused is to, in essence, put the park back the way it was before the takeover (leaving the few true improvements they made in place, though).

As fantastic as that would be, I don't see it happening any time soon. That being the case, the next best thing 6F can do is either get rid of the animal elements completely, converting the thing to a pure theme park in the process, or Just Shut It Down. Period.

Then again, 6F, as a company, may simply implode on their own in the coming year or two. I would consider that justice enough.

Happier travels, and thanks for chatting.
 
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KC7GR,
I may sound a bit like Bill Clinton, but "I feel your pain". My own grandfather started a glass business in Wisconsin that, for over 50 years, was very successful. My father worked there, owned the place, and retired there. I and my 2 brothers (and brother-in-law) all worked there, with my brother becoming the owner too. While under his watch, they were swindled out of a million dollars -- leading to its collapse, and to my brother having to sell the place. After this happened, none of us had any further interest in going there.

Your description of the Marine World buyout sounds like it was more the fault of the Vallejo city government than of Six Flags corp. As I suggested, I think 6F was more in the role of "rescuer". We will likely have to "agree to disagree" on whether the rides and animal exhibits are properly divided. I think we agree that they are "sorta divided", though clearly not as well as you'd like. Whether the roller coaster noise is "obnoxious" is in the ears of the beholder. There are clearly a few others on this board who agree with you, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

When I went to the whale stadium (which I agree is not nearly as big as Sea World's), I sat way up in the top row (I was late for the show). I'm pretty certain that they had a few close-ups of Shouka, the killer whale, on the big screen. But I'll have to check my videotape to be sure. As to the "business reasons" for the changes they made, I was just guessing.

I appreciate your thoughts. Your critique has far more validity than most of the critiques of SFDK on this board.
 
Thank you...

I cannot rule out the possibility that the city, more than anyone else, was ultimately to blame. However, as mentioned, my understanding of that part of their history is murky. For obvious reasons, not much of the wheeling and dealing was a matter of public record. My current understanding comes from people I know who were very close to the park.

In any case -- thank you. I try to do as much research as I can, ideally in person, before I critique any zoo or oceanarium.

Happy travels.
 
Does anyone have pictures of the park from the days before Six Flags?
 
In any case -- thank you. I try to do as much research as I can, ideally in person, before I critique any zoo or oceanarium.

Wow, how refreshing! I can actually have a conversation with someone who doesn't agree on everything -- and we don't end up insulting each other! Must be the company.

As for any pictures, my only Marine World visit was in 1995. I was on a 10-day, 7-state, 20-zoo trip of the West (including Alaska). I took videos of all the zoos -- but unfortunately I lost that video! That kills me, as it's my only video of some of the zoos I visited on that trip.
 
Uhhh... yes?

Does anyone have pictures of the park from the days before Six Flags?

Actually, 'yes' is putting it delicately. I have literally hundreds of Kodachrome slides, and not a small number of color prints/negatives, that cover the park from long before it moved out of Belmont right up until my last visit (when they were still Marine World) in 1993, before I left the Bay Area to live in Washington.

Getting these all scanned, and stored on digital media, is on my "to do" list, but it is low priority at the moment.

I don't know how long it'll take me to get going on this.

Happy travels.
 
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