Sumatran Rhino Pregnant

MARK said:
Ok I am clear about what you are saying, But at this stage there has been NO inbreeding that I know of, I understand (as a long time dog and reptile/fish breeder) what inbreeding can do to depression and some other problems if to much of it is used BUT this is not the case here and now, I know with the Indian rhinos at the San Deigo Wild Animal Park inbreeding took place in the early days and numbers built up quicky which is what we want with the Sumatran species, in later years they imported several new males from India with unrelated bloodlines so I feel this is the best option under the conditions we have here and now.
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I understand what your saying, I do. However do you have any idea how many Indian Rhinos were still born at WAP (same with mountain tapirs at LA) ?

Certain species (more often than not species which evolved on islands) are very resistant to depression for example the Mauritius Kestrel. Its probable that a pairing between Ipu and Succi would result in a healthy calf. But 1 calf every 3 years wont make a great deal of difference in the next 6 years by which time if new blood hasnt arrived the captive population will be all but lost.

The program is due some luck, who knows Dr. Roth and the team at CRES may yet have success. If anyone can do it they can.

The fact remains that acquisition of more founders is required (sooner or later) and right now there are candidates for capture and translocation. In two years those animals will be lost and all that will remain are 3 populations on Sumatra and 1 on Borneo.
 
Dicerorhinus said:
I understand what your saying, I do. However do you have any idea how many Indian Rhinos were still born at WAP (same with mountain tapirs at LA) ?

Certain species (more often than not species which evolved on islands) are very resistant to depression for example the Mauritius Kestrel. Its probable that a pairing between Ipu and Succi would result in a healthy calf. But 1 calf every 3 years wont make a great deal of difference in the next 6 years by which time if new blood hasnt arrived the captive population will be all but lost.

The program is due some luck, who knows Dr. Roth and the team at CRES may yet have success. If anyone can do it they can.

The fact remains that acquisition of more founders is required and right now there are candidates for capture and translocation. In two years those animals will be lost and all that will remain are 3 populations on Sumatra and 1 on Borneo.
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I do not know IF any still borns happened at the SD WAP so do YOU know of any??.

I agree with you if any people can breed these guys it's Dr Roth and her team they do have the runs on the board and have broken new ground and I wish them all the best in what they are doing :cool:.
 
Dicerorhinus said:
Not off the top of my head...

I'm glad we can agree on something!
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I knew people that use to work at the SD WAP and had some inside knowledge of Indian rhinos ;).

I believe we both have the best interest of this species at heart but just disagree on the next step in breeding them, I would like nothing more than see some new blood for the captive group but untill we know more about AI lets just get them breeding ;)
 
Sumatran rhinos in situ ex wild; the option to capture the rumoured outlying rhinos is realistic. The technique is now well advanced and secure for capture. The Way Kambas station is operating and able to absorb (even if they will have to build additional enclosure space for the rhinos) and to acclimatise.

Dr. Roth: Cin Zoo has a wealth of experience in AI and Sumatran rhino breeding techniques and basic biology (if it were not for Dr. Roth we would not know a thing or so).


Indian rhinos in SD-WAP: Inbreeding has been an issue (as previously and partially it still is in the European Basel lineage). SD-WAP did experience quite a number of stillbirths that may be attributed to higher levels of inbreeding. Dicerorhinus is right to question this ethic.

AI is a method worth investigating and sure Dr. Roth holds the key on that - another way of not the eggs in one basket-. Sure enough, I would advocate the capture of at least 1.1 unrelated outlier Sumatran Sumatran rhinos and preferably even 2.4 to create a more robust back-up population.

In terms of species management: yes, all 3 protected areas on Sumatera contain sub viable Sumatran Sumatran rhino populations. Reintroductions and translocations may proceed without any negative impact on individual populations.

I have myself already made early suggestions to managers of the RPU units to introduce camera trapping and DNA dung and hair analysis to have a better understanding of the sex ratio and breeding capacity and paternity assignage of the current 3 sub populations.
 
no dicerorrhinus, i haven't ever been to the SRS - i had planned on visiting about six months ago when i was in peninsular malaysia, but due to unforeseen events it wasn't possible. i've seen the rhino in the KK zoo when i was in borneo. she's the last remaining animal that was originally at sepilok.

i am sure that SRS is less than ideal in the sense of facilities, powerage etc. but the point i'm trying to make is this - and its interesting because i often get accused of being an idealist - and i guess i unashamedly am:

i figure that, when you have a species in such dire straights, you aim to place those animals in the absolute ideal scenario. in this scenario the ideal is a warm tropical climate, thats not stressful for the animals and particularly not stressful for any wild caught animals. because wild capture, is like you said, imperative to this programs mid to long term success. its also ideal that the CBP is in the same country as some of the wild populations, as this eliminates the years of red tape that might be involved with sending animals abroad to suitable mates. these years are precious when you might be hypothetically speaking of a wild caught female nearing the end of her reproductive life that might otherwise go to waste if she is not bred imminently. and lastly its ideal that these animals are offered the full protection, state of the art care and study that can be offered in a urban setting, like at a western zoo.

so if you weigh up all that for me. the most logical solution that would give this captive population the most ideal scenario and thus greatest chance of procreating - is to invest money in improving the way kambas facility. improving them to the point that they accommodate all the technology and expertise that they need to get things moving.

and i don't think thats unrealistic. i just don't believe building a lab in the sumatran jungle is that hard or unrealistic an option.

keeping them in the US is not ideal. it just offers some big advantages. but you can replicate those advantages in indonesia, you can't replicate the advantages of a program based in indonesia in the US.

my earlier comment was:

"you don't take the rhino out of the jungle. you take the scientists to the jungle."

i hope this puts it somewhat in perspective.
 
Shorts said:
"Zoogiraffe" as a verb:D, I'm sure he'll be flattered and amused.
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Actually I`m not amused because it first I was thinking what the hell I had said on the subject only to find I had said nothing.:mad:Because I don`t know enough about what is going on with the Sumatran Rhinos to add anything of serious note to the discussion.:rolleyes:
 
Fair point (given your non-comments on the issue), but it amused me that "Zoogiraffe", the verb, was used to mean clarifying/winning an argument through being very well informed and/or connected.:)
 
it is an odd choice of wording from someone who's only made 19 posts on the forum. The way I read it actually sounded something like an insult in the way it was used. (But what do I know?)
 
Dicerorhinus said:
Unfortunately A.I. in Sumatrans will be far more complicated than it is with White or even Indian Rhino.


There is a template in place that utilises SRS as a halfway house for wild caught animals that would be mated with captive animals (thus infusing the captive population with more founders) before they are re-released where they were captured (all of the National Parks in Sumatra that have rhino are thought to be well below carrying capacity so reintroductions shouldn’t displace animals).

The obvious problem here is habituation to humans, (I don’t know if you know the circumstances for Rosa being translocated to SRS) something unfortunately the species is very prone to.
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That is what I suspected, given the different reproductive biology. Do you think they can achieve AI with Suci at Cincinatti- without wasting several years of her breeding life?

Wouldn't it be safer to keep any 'rescued' rhinos permanently at the SRC? Given the ease of habituation for this species (e.g. 'Rosa) I wonder how easy it would be to reintroduce any rhinos which had lived for a period at Way Kambas back into the wild and ensure they didn't wander back into civilisation or even up to poachers?
 
Pertinax said:
That is what I suspected, given the different reproductive biology. Do you think they can achieve AI with Suci at Cincinatti- without wasting several years of her breeding life?

Wouldn't it be safer to keep any 'rescued' rhinos permanently at the SRC? Given the ease of habituation for this species (e.g. 'Rosa) I wonder how easy it would be to reintroduce any rhinos which had lived for a period at Way Kambas back into the wild and ensure they didn't wander back into civilisation or even up to poachers?
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The example of Rosa is not a good one: she may never be re-released as she had become too habituated to humans in the first place.

IMO: In terms of rhino behaviour: this type of rhino is far more "docile" than any blacks or Indians.
 
Kifaru Bwana said:
The example of Rosa is not a good one: she may never be re-released as she had become too habituated to humans in the first place.
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But surely any Sumatran rhino (not just Rosa) that is sent to Way Kambas for a period of time is going to become habituated to humans- particularly if its closely managed. So all will lose their fear of people- making them unsuitable for re-release? I can't see any of these animals being released anyway.

I think that if any more come into captivity this way (if they in fact ever do) they should remain there, providing sex and age criteria can be met with for breeding.
 
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