ZSL London Zoo Tiger HQ at ZSL London Zoo

[stulch]

I went to the members’ preview of Penguin Beach on Thursday afternoon (I'm trying to download on You Tube a video of the talk, however never really done this before!) but I heard someone from the Zoo mention September for the Tigers to a fellow member.

I've checked, this morning, the planning applications for Westminster Council and there is an application now in (received Tuesday 24/05/2011).

Unfortunately no documents yet, I imagine they're still to download them at the Council, but I'm sure they'll be there soon.

Planning Application Ref: 11/04644/FULL

Westminster City Council

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Are we not jumping to premature conclusions. Putting in a planning application is not equivalent to building work starting, IS IT?

Has ZSL over recent weeks said/mentioned/published anything re. their tiger exhibit fundraising campaign?

 

[stulch]

Are we not jumping to premature conclusions. Putting in a planning application is not equivalent to building work starting, IS IT?

Has ZSL over recent weeks said/mentioned/published anything re. their tiger exhibit fundraising campaign?

Just an update on what I heard / found. No more, no less.

I think we'll all be interested in what the planning application documents look like, although I know there's already been some links to pictures/plans on here before.

Needless to say they need planning permission and then if/when they get that they can decide, if they haven't already, if they can proceed allowing for funds, but aren't they required to build a new tiger enclosure as discussed on here previously?

 

[stulch]

Tiger HQ

Now I am going to speculate!

Do you reckon because:-

1) The address of the planning application is Bridge Linking East Tunnel Beneath Roadway Of Outer Circle Regents Park.

2) They are going to move the entrance to that area (at some point) i.e. behind the shop/exit.

3) The Pygmy Hippos are going to have to move as their summer outdoor enclosure is part of the new Tiger HQ.

4) On the masterplan, which was in the Penguin planning application, they have the Pygmy Hippos where the current entrance is.

5) The Penguin application also included the shop and the new exit and although it had three separate components they explained they needed to proceed together.

That they are going to apply to do the Tigers, new entrance and a new Pygmy Hippo enclosure at the same time?!

How’s that for a theory!

I’m sure we’ll find out soon!

 

[Pertinax]

The Pygmy Hippos are going to have to move as their summer outdoor enclosure is part of the new Tiger HQ.

On the masterplan, which was in the Penguin planning application, they have the Pygmy Hippos where the current entrance is.

If your theory is correct regarding the plans, I can't see why they are going to the expense of building a brand new exhibit for Pygmy Hippo, when they would fit the 'Africa ' theme if moved to the Malayan Tapirs' enclosure- perhaps with some renovation work done on it- on the Cotton terraces, and the Tapirs move to near to the new Tigers' area(I believe this may be the idea for the Tapirs anyway?)

The Pygmy Hippo are hardly a high profile or very active species and I can't see how building a costly new enclosure would raise their exhibit value very much. They won't be any more active in a different enclosure to how they behave now.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Whereas I am not party to the current Masterplan, I do have an inkling that the ideas put forward as being in the planning permission for the new entrance are correct.

My inkling being: pygmy hippo suit the Gorilla Forest area. To be over-ambitious in that ... one would even relocate the okapi to that part of ZSL/London Zoo.

 

[stulch]

Masterplan

Here's the link to the Masterplan, which I think was done in 2007 but please remember the terms and conditions.

"I understand that in allowing me to inspect and take copies of certain documents, Westminster City Council is acting in accordance with its statutory obligations. I further understand that my use of those copy documents may be restricted by law and that the Council may not be entitled to give, and does not give, to me any permission to use those copies in any manner."

http://idocs.westminster.gov.uk:808...ume22&contentType=application/pdf&pageCount=1

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

@stulch,

Well appreciated, that!

I find it a balanced and evocative MPLAN. Ties in with all major in situ conservation components ZSL/London Zoo is involved with.

If they could continue the S.E.Asian theme into the rocks that would make my day (as would an extension into Regent's Park ... as this is what one would conclude off that small line across them lawn).

K.B.

 

[Pertinax]

I can see the intention of using Pygmy Hippos to flesh out the African Rainforest theme around the Gorilla exhibit. They will still be a fairly inanimate exhibit though...

Isn't the new Penguin exhibit already on top of/near the new Entrance area that is shown on this plan? It doesn't seem to be shown at all.

 

[stulch]

Masterplan

Penguin Beach covers most of the ticket booths and most of the New Life Building on the Masterplan. The penguins, on the masterplan, are next to the New Life Building, the south-east corner.

However, it still said in the Penguins Beach planning application, that the new entrance was going to be moved there (at a later date).

Although it's a masterplan, I still think you need to be flexible, for instance, when it comes to putting an actual planning application in, you might find a better way of doing something, come up with a better idea of its design or advances in science might require you to adapt.

What we're seen of the tigers design, on here previously, does also differ slightly from the masterplan.

I do think you would be foolish to stick to a masterplan religiously but then of course there is a purpose to it.

 

[stulch]

Masterplan

Penguin Beach Planning Application

APPENDIX 5 - DESIGN AND ACCESS STATEMENT

It mentions the new entrance near the end of the fourth paragraph on the second page, but again please remember the terms and conditions.

"I understand that in allowing me to inspect and take copies of certain documents, Westminster City Council is acting in accordance with its statutory obligations. I further understand that my use of those copy documents may be restricted by law and that the Council may not be entitled to give, and does not give, to me any permission to use those copies in any manner."

http://idocs.westminster.gov.uk:808...ume22&contentType=application/pdf&pageCount=1

 

[stulch]

Tiger HQ

Now I am going to speculate!

Do you reckon because:-

1) The address of the planning application is Bridge Linking East Tunnel Beneath Roadway Of Outer Circle Regents Park.

2) They are going to move the entrance to that area (at some point) i.e. behind the shop/exit.

3) The Pygmy Hippos are going to have to move as their summer outdoor enclosure is part of the new Tiger HQ.

4) On the masterplan, which was in the Penguin planning application, they have the Pygmy Hippos where the current entrance is.

5) The Penguin application also included the shop and the new exit and although it had three separate components they explained they needed to proceed together.

That they are going to apply to do the Tigers, new entrance and a new Pygmy Hippo enclosure at the same time?!

How’s that for a theory!

I’m sure we’ll find out soon!

I see the application now has the address as Outer Circle Regents Park London!

Still no documents yet.

 

[stulch]

I've checked, this morning, the planning applications for Westminster Council and there is an application now in (received Tuesday 24/05/2011).

Unfortunately no documents yet, I imagine they're still to download them at the Council, but I'm sure they'll be there soon.

Planning Application Ref: 11/04644/FULL

Westminster City Council

There are now documents, haven't had a chance to look myself yet though.

 

[johnstoni.]

From these documents, it appears the 'Tiger Conservation HQ' requires a great deal more funds to restore the old buildings than if they demolished them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like ZSL are restoring the entire Stork and Ostrich house as part of this project. I can only assume there is a ringfence around funds raised for the tiger project which are distinct from gate/additional spend revenue or reserves going into the restoration of this building, as it would be quite a stretch to explain to individual donors to this campaign why restoration of a (much beloved) old building is instrumental to tiger conservation. Furthermore, I wonder how the storks and other birds will react, if at all, to the scent and sound of large cats in the same building as their indoor quarters.

While I am happy the Stork and Ostrich House will be restored, I wonder about the wisdom of restoring the sea lion viewing stand...is this actually listed? Surely it would be cheaper to have demolished it and created a cubbing area using softer materials, with more distance from the public?

It was interesting that they refer to the '1967 Sea Lion pool', as I thought, the current pool doesn't resemble the older, darker pool that had a rocky perimeter.

I am also interested and pleased to read that the Casson moat will form the sunken visitor path along the perimeter of the tiger enclosure.

 

[stulch]

From these documents, it appears the 'Tiger Conservation HQ' requires a great deal more funds to restore the old buildings than if they demolished them.

Will it definitely cost more? I think also from a history/environmental/recycling point of view ZSL are keen to adapt any buildings they have anyway if they can.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like ZSL are restoring the entire Stork and Ostrich house as part of this project.

I might be wrong myself but isn’t it the just revalent half, unlike a previous location plan I saw (which might have just been a mistake) that had the entire house within the red development boundary line rather than this that has half:-

http://idocs.westminster.gov.uk:808...ume24&contentType=application/pdf&pageCount=1

I can only assume there is a ringfence around funds raised for the tiger project which are distinct from gate/additional spend revenue or reserves going into the restoration of this building, as it would be quite a stretch to explain to individual donors to this campaign why restoration of a (much beloved) old building is instrumental to tiger conservation.

I agree they would/will need to make sure the money goes to what it was intended for, but I fully expect it to (if there was a non-tiger part) and I think basically they will never get full funding for this project solely from people who donated/sponsored with the intention of it going to the tiger project.

So therefore the portion of the funding that they did get would just go to the tiger part of the project (if there was a non-tiger part of the project) with the rest coming from reserves/money that they said they had already themselves when lauching the appeal.

If they did get more, which I’m sure they would like to, I’m sure that additional figure would go to the actual conservation of the wild tigers from the outset in addition to the amount already earmarked in the appeal (i.e. they would be able to commit to rangers etc. for longer, earlier rather than having to wait for further money to be raised from the donation points in the exhibit after it's built) after all I’m sure the more money raised for tigers in the wild the better.

While I am happy the Stork and Ostrich House will be restored, I wonder about the wisdom of restoring the sea lion viewing stand...is this actually listed? Surely it would be cheaper to have demolished it and created a cubbing area using softer materials, with more distance from the public?

It isn't listed but I quite like the idea of keeping this and having the additional cubbing area underneath as in the plans as I would love them in the future to extend the pool so there's under water viewing from it, like they had in earlier graphics which would also kind of further link it to it's past.

I am also interested and pleased to read that the Casson moat will form the sunken visitor path along the perimeter of the tiger enclosure.

I am also and it looks a great use of space.

It looks like they are still adding documents, at the end of the day, if it's up to the standard of Penguin Beach when it's open, which it looks like it's going to be from the plans, it will be an fantastic exhibit.

 

[johnstoni.]

Will it definitely cost more? I think also from a history/environmental/recycling point of view ZSL are keen to adapt any buildings they have anyway if they can.

I might be wrong myself but isn’t it the just revalent half, unlike a previous location plan I saw (which might have just been a mistake) that had the entire house within the red development boundary line rather than this that has half:-

http://idocs.westminster.gov.uk:808...ume24&contentType=application/pdf&pageCount=1

I agree they would/will need to make sure the money goes to what it was intended for, but I fully expect it to (if there was a non-tiger part) and I think basically they will never get full funding for this project solely from people who donated/sponsored with the intention of it going to the tiger project.

So therefore the portion of the funding that they did get would just go to the tiger part of the project (if there was a non-tiger part of the project) with the rest coming from reserves/money that they said they had already themselves when lauching the appeal.

To quote the design and access statement, dated June 15th:

"Visitors will start their journey on the North side with the indoor enclosure in the fully refurbished 1896 Stork and Ostrich house........The full restoration will provide the tigers with a suitable protected on and off-show accommodation.......The tiger area will occupy approximately half of the existing building area and the other parts will provide much improved bird accommodation......The main environmental benefit from this project is the design of a new tiger area without the demolition of existing buildings and their replacement with new structures even though this would arguably have been a more cost effective solution."

I think it would be disingenuous on the part of ZSL to use funds raised in a 'tiger conservation' campaign to refurbish an entire listed building, even though practically it is pointless refurbishing a small section. I would sincerely hope there are additional funds used in this part of the development and that these are clearly and separately earmarked at some point. ZSL won't look good if they quietly try to do a building restoration to include new indoor facilities for the African Bird Safari on the back of peoples' goodwill towards their in situ tiger conservation work. I suppose the only way round it would be to convert the African Bird Safari into an exhibit of birds native to Indonesia, and to use the area as an additional teaching tool about tiger habitat.

I have to disagree about the sea lion stand. While I applaud restoration of old buildings, this one is particularly ugly IMO, and I don't think the volumes of young visitors stomping and shouting their way down a glass-sided corridor above the cubbing den before leaving down a wooden ramp is anything short of an acoustic nightmare in high season, I would question the wisdom of a round route around the exhibit for this reason and hope I am proved wrong with some parent-raised cubs from whoever replace Raika and Lumpur when they finally pass on. I would much rather have seen the entire sea lion pool and stand building demolished and a new build cubbing den created. However, it may be that the many dog walkers who walk the other side of the perimeter just metres away provide an additional issue and perhaps the old wild dog pens below the sea lion stand can be suitably enclosed to minimise olfactory awareness of these.

 

[stulch]

I found and read the design and access statement later after posting my post, they are always interesting to read, I didn't add anything as I covered in my post if there was a non-tiger part. It did also confirm (one of the reasons) I thought why they were not demolishing i.e. environmental, for Penguin Beach, I think in the design and access statement, they made an environmental point of saying something like they weren't going to move the rubble/soil off-site as it was going to be re-used the landscaping/mounds.

They do use the word arguably though in the tiger design and access statement.

They certainly have a lot of cleaning to do on the sea lion stand and it will be interesting to see how it turns out if/when the plans are approved/carried through.

I imagine as they have many dealings with Westminster Council they have begun to know what they expect. It could well be that they know if they suggest knocking it down and building another structure to replace it that they know that the Council would ask why they can't use what's there already and be pretty firm on it. Just an idea.

Hopefully, it won't be too noisy for any cubs at the south end or if it is they can sound proof it (or sound proof it further if there are already plans for it).

 

[Jordan-Jaguar97]

Do you think they'll only houses an adult pair maybe move the current pair to another collection and form a new pair(1.1)or possibly two pairs pending on indoor accomadation?

 

[stulch]

To quote the Design and Access Statement:-

The new Sumatran Tiger facility proposed for London Zoo will increase the capacity of the zoo to hold more tigers with improved breeding and rearing facilities. There will also be more space for the tigers in a more complex and interesting environment than the current facility.

 

[johnstoni.]

I personally think they will wait until one of the existing pair dies before bringing in a new, young pair. They can't risk a new pair breeding while either of the current tigers remains because the original criticism of the licensing inspection was that the current enclosure isn't adequate for separation of the cats with only one outdoor compound, so breeding in the new exhibit would be complicated if Lumpur or Raika were still there, unless the breeding pair were of the temperment that the male could be left in with the cubs, however I very much doubt that risk would ever be taken.

I hope Raika and Lumpur will enjoy a few years of more comfortable retirement in the new exhibit before a young pair is introduced. It wouldn't make sense to exhibit four adult tigers at once.