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Mr Wrinkly

Mr Wrinkly

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10+ year member
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[Moderator note: this discussion moved from the Toronto news thread: Toronto Zoo Developments 2019 [Toronto Zoo]]


Please please put this type of thing on a separate thread! There is already too much on the "Developments" thread that does not belong here.

Trip reports on what people saw or did not see, births and transfers, fantasizing about potential exhibits are not appropriate on this thread.
e.g. sumatrans were noisy today, turs were eating, archerfish were moved, wolves are denning, I posted 'photos
 
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Mr Wrinkly said:
Please please put this type of thing on a separate thread! There is already too much on the "Developments" thread that does not belong here.

Trip reports on what people saw or did not see, births and transfers, fantasizing about potential exhibits are not appropriate on this thread.
e.g. sumatrans were noisy today, turs were eating, archerfish were moved, wolves are denning, I posted 'photos
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Not to argue, Mr Wrinkly, in fact I understand where you are coming from - but I think you've worded that a little harshly. If there was a thread dedicated to Zoo Visits or Current Zoo Happenings then I would've used it - and I dare say others would too.

I've recently finished a "catch-up" read of the Toronto Zoo posts over the past however-many-years back they go on this site, from oldest to newest - and discussions of zoo visits or what animals are doing what, have almost always ended up in the Developments thread. A few posters would occasionally post these sort of updates in new, separate threads, but they either died out or were merged into something else by a moderator in order to "not clutter things up with too many threads". Just a few years back there was another suggestion/discussion going on about having a separate thread for the kind of things you describe - but the senior members or mods (I can't remember which) again decided it made more sense to have fewer busy threads than multiple ones being created and then forgotten about.
Based on all that, I thought I WAS posting in the right place, and that we weren't supposed to be creating our own threads unless it was "approved" in some way.
If there can be another thread, great. But until that's sorted I guess I'll just go back to lurking, instead of posting about the things that I enjoy about the zoo.

Sorry to have offended.
 
Mr Wrinkly said:
Please please put this type of thing on a separate thread! There is already too much on the "Developments" thread that does not belong here.

Trip reports on what people saw or did not see, births and transfers, fantasizing about potential exhibits are not appropriate on this thread.
e.g. sumatrans were noisy today, turs were eating, archerfish were moved, wolves are denning, I posted 'photos
Click to expand...
Judache said:
I've recently finished a "catch-up" read of the Toronto Zoo posts over the past however-many-years back they go on this site, from oldest to newest - and discussions of zoo visits or what animals are doing what, have almost always ended up in the Developments thread. A few posters would occasionally post these sort of updates in new, separate threads, but they either died out or were merged into something else by a moderator in order to "not clutter things up with too many threads". Just a few years back there was another suggestion/discussion going on about having a separate thread for the kind of things you describe - but the senior members or mods (I can't remember which) again decided it made more sense to have fewer busy threads than multiple ones being created and then forgotten about.
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I don't think it has anything to do with mods or admin.

Looking back through the threads for Toronto, there was "originally" three year threads - one for "future developments", one for "current happenings", and one for "new arrivals, births and deaths" - @Meaghan Edwards and others headed these up. After a few years that changed into two threads, one for "future developments" (which was really both the first two subjects combined, probably because the original "future developments" threads never had much in them) and one for "births, deaths, and arrivals". The current two-thread system which has been headed by @TZFan is for "developments" and "births, deaths and arrivals" which seems to work well. Basically the "developments" thread is the same as the "news" threads which other zoos tend to get but with a different name, I'd guess simply because the name has been carried over from the older thread titles. I could always just edit the titles from "developments" to "news" as that appears to be the issue in the posts above.

(Disclaimer: I don't really follow the Canada threads other than browsing them to keep an eye on content, but from my outside view the two-thread system seems to work well).
 
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I don't think there is any problem with the "births, deaths and arrivals" thread. The issues revolves around this thread.
As @Mr Wrinkly points out there is a lot of content that does not fall under a developments title, the most obvious being posts on births, deaths and transfers. I appreciate your perspective @Chlidonias; I personally would favour a three thread set up. Even if you edited the title to "news" that still wouldn't address the posts that drive me away and I think are the ones being referred by Mr Wrinkly. For example, posts saying that an animal was making noise or with far flung hypothetical situations are not really news either.
If a third thread was created for trip reports, fantasy discussion etc that could leave this thread to just focus on actual developments at the zoo.
 
m30t said:
I don't think there is any problem with the "births, deaths and arrivals" thread. The issues revolves around this thread.
As @Mr Wrinkly points out there is a lot of content that does not fall under a developments title, the most obvious being posts on births, deaths and transfers. I appreciate your perspective @Chlidonias; I personally would favour a three thread set up. Even if you edited the title to "news" that still wouldn't address the posts that drive me away and I think are the ones being referred by Mr Wrinkly. For example, posts saying that an animal was making noise or with far flung hypothetical situations are not really news either.
If a third thread was created for trip reports, fantasy discussion etc that could leave this thread to just focus on actual developments at the zoo.
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This makes perfect sense. Create a third thread where those of us who like to talk about our visits, or about things the zoo talks about on their social. media, can go.

I'm personally not a fan of the "speculation/fantasy" posts either, but I completely respect the right of those who want to discuss that, and would have no problem with those posts also in that thread.

I think it would be a great shame (and a disservice to Toronto Zoo itself!) if those of use who get excited about what we see at the zoo - or equally enjoy reading about visits that others make - no longer post anywhere because we're afraid of
"messing up" or offending those long-time members who prefer not to see that.

I was quite upset last night after reading Mr Wrinkly's post. As I said, I don't disagree with him, but feel he could have worded it much more diplomatically. I really enjoy this site, and I don't want to feel like I'm not welcome.
 
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Judache, I am very sorry that you were upset. My post was not about you. I was not offended about anything and do not feel my comments were harsh, but frustrated.

Already I read and contribute to the TZ threads much less frequently because of the type of things I mentioned. There will be 16 Wild Encounters to start with and the thought of endless posts on the Developments/News thread about them in addition to details of personal visits that do not have information contributing to the thread will drive me further away. If anyone learns any real news, or about births/deaths/transfers, I wish they would please post that on the appropriate thread and document their visit on a third thread.

Chlidonias, thank you for your appraisal of the TZ threads. I do believe we need a third thread for the people who want to post their visit details and other off-topic things. In my opinion there should be a Wild Encounters 2019 thread but I suppose that would be cumbersome.

Ha - imagine if I posted about my usual weekly visits in detail - it would be endless lists of "heard the wolves calling" "Kanzi responded to my voice again" "foxes were sleeping" "saw the grizzlies" "meerkats were all at the window". Who cares!
 
I've moved these posts to a stand-alone thread so that the invested Canadian members can easily discuss how they think the threads should be dealt with, without taking the "developments" thread off the news topics.
 
I think the problem is that most members are used to just having one thread for a zoo (usually called the News thread), where absolutely anything related to the zoo goes. Other systems, which often make more sense, only succeed if all users understand and adhere to them. Toronto is a little unique in this regard in that it has a regular cadre of members who have independently evolved and maintain such a system. However, this conversation does illustrate some shortcomings. Personally I think a Discussion thread would solve the problem of where to put these types of posts, but it introduces more complexity and that's not a good thing in terms of having a system that people intuitively follow.
 
I'd like to start by apologizing. I didn't realize I would start a whole thing by suggesting a thread for the tours. It wasn't my intention to start any discussion about how the forum is structured. I selfishly just wanted one place to learn about the tours so I wouldn't have to wade through pages upon pages of posts to find what I was looking for. Don't get me wrong. I have long been on board with Mr Wrinkly that we are cluttering up the development thread with things that just don't fit there. I know I'm guilty of spouting off ideas about what could be there, dang lights instead of devils. And I would certainly like to post about fun things I have seen, but know that watching little Charlie get Nneka in trouble for merely defending herself doesn't qualify as a development. I'm certainly into other people stories too because I cannot visit as often as I would like and need to live vicariously through my zoo chat buddies.

We have long been using the form that the original Toronto Zoo chatters started. As a group we have changed, evolved and grown perhaps it is time consider things like different threads to share different pieces of information. There has always been 2 main threads. At various times we have started and updated lesser threads like the former Toronto animals, the names thread and the keeper for a day thread, to name a few. Maybe it's time to expand the main threads again because things are starting to feel a little cluttered.

The births, deaths and transfers thread has always worked best because its straight forward. Everyone knows exactly what belongs there and what doesn't, although sometimes those bits of information get posted in the development thread accidentally.

The developments thread really has become a catch all. It was originally more about what was going to be new at the zoo, exhibit changes, construction, ect. But when people had no where else to post their observations and questions that don't really fit in one category or the other the development thread kind of just became the spot that stuff went.

A third new thread called visits or general might be a way to reorganize things. It would give a catch all spot people can share their experiences, basic observations and questions. It lets people share the more basic things while allowing others who might not be interested in those things to ignore them. Gives the best of both worlds to all.

It's great that the moderators have opened this thread so we can all share our thoughts and opinions on how we would like to structure our little community going forward. Everyone should weigh in. Maybe there are better ideas out there. We are a unique zoo crew. That's what makes this group great. If we can find a way to make our conversations better I'm all for it because that will just help to grow our numbers. More eyes and voices will just benefit us all.

That's just my two cents. I'm cool with whatever the group decides to do.
 
Ok, so I'm all for 3 threads, however those thread will have to be uniquely defined so it's clear cut what information is to go in those threads for newcomers to the forum.

Births, Deaths, and Transfers - Clearly should be a discussion about animals leaving and coming to the zoo in all manners.

Developments - Should be more clearly defined. Because if someone visits the zoo and notices something new not previously mentioned, or to further expand on a topic already discuss, that is a development, whether some people find it trivial or not. Personally, I think of a development as something that is being confirmed to be going on with the Toronto Zoo. Whether it's animal related or something going on with the facilities, or even Board meeting details. This included stuff that is noticed during visits that relation to the overall operation of the Zoo.

If a third thread is to be made is should be a General discussion thread. This is where people can give their trip reports that don't necessarily fit in the previous threads including the so called "speculation/fantasy" posts.

The thread that needs the most clarification is the Developments thread, as most have be using it for general discussion as well.

And for the record, @Mr Wrinkly whether you meant to or not, your post did come off very combative towards those that were not posting what you felt was necessary in the appropriate threads.
 
First, I want to thank @Chlidonias for his help with this discussion and the thread split (the irony of which was appreciated).

Second, I think we are being a little bit hard on @Mr Wrinkly. Had it not been for them stepping up and saying something the issue would not have been addressed. As noted in the post above, Mr Wrinkly had decreased their contributions lately as a result of some of the posts, which is a significant loss for this community. I too had become less engaged, and the only way this community works is with the participation of the network of involved posters who visit different parts of the zoo and pay attention to different developments. Furthermore Mr Wrinkly's post did not single out individual users nor did it attack users (ie saying a post was pointless or useless).
If we want the three thread system to work, it will be necessary from time to time for someone to say that a post is not appropriate for a particular thread.

With that said, obviously no one wants to see anyone upset. It is unfortunate that @Judache felt that way, as I'm sure no one was aiming for that.
Judache said:
I think it would be a great shame (and a disservice to Toronto Zoo itself!) if those of use who get excited about what we see at the zoo - or equally enjoy reading about visits that others make - no longer post anywhere because we're afraid of
"messing up" or offending those long-time members who prefer not to see that.
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On this note, I think whenever anyone of us posts we run the risk that the post will offend or annoy a long-time member or a new one. Whenever we express ourselves publicly we face the possibility that some people will not like it; it's a risk we have to be willing to take. For example, some people are probably thinking I should get to the point already.

There seems to be consensus on the births, deaths and transfers thread.

For the development threads, I think there is general agreement in @cypher and @TZFan's commens that this thread should focus on: exhibit changes, new exhibits, construction, new experiences (like the behind the scenes tours). Examples include noting things like "the outdoor clouded leopard habitat has been stripped and is being worked on", "the board meetings note that the Orangutan exhibit has been delayed till..." or the "zoo's social media announced the opening of the Washed Ashore art exhibit." The tougher part is what is not suited for this thread, I think from what I've read on here there is agreement that "I'd like to see the zoo bring in the following animals", "I went to the zoo today and saw the zebras..." and "I think the zoo should get 10 million dollars and spend it on a camera loan program for guests" do not belong in this thread.

Those posts would be best suited for the third thread, which I think would be most appropriately titled Toronto Zoo General Discussion.

As noted by @FunkyGibbon the challenge becomes when people do not adhere to the thread guidelines. On that note, we all need to be willing to accept having comments noted as being more appropriate for a different thread.

No one seems to be objecting to a third thread, and unless someone does soon might I suggest someone start it? I would myself, but I think that should be done by someone who will play a more active role in it.

Finally, thank you to everyone for sharing their thoughts!
 
m30t said:
For the development threads, I think there is general agreement in @cypher and @TZFan's commens that this thread should focus on: exhibit changes, new exhibits, construction, new experiences (like the behind the scenes tours).
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I thought the point of this was that people didn't think that the behind the scenes tours belonged in the "developments" thread?

Just to point out too, that if the majority think that the subject of those tours will expand and be ongoing then I'm happy to split those existing posts off into a separate thread so that they are easy to find in one place.
 
m30t said:
No one seems to be objecting to a third thread, and unless someone does soon might I suggest someone start it? I would myself, but I think that should be done by someone who will play a more active role in it.
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What would happen in that case is that one of the mods would split up the existing "developments" thread into two threads - it wouldn't be a case of a new thread being started from scratch.
 
Chlidonias said:
I thought the point of this was that people didn't think that the behind the scenes tours belonged in the "developments" thread?
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I think what we are trying to express is that it is appropriate for the developments/news thread should have the "news" of the WE and any comment about that news. However reports on people's experiences with this should not be on a news thread. As a long-time member I have already done many such behind-the scenes visits but newer members and non-members will probably have many comments and questions on each encounter.

Actually, as a major change for TZ, I still feel it warrants its own dedicated thread for any reviews and experiences. As is usual with such things, after a flurry of comments it would eventually become somewhat dormant.
 
m30t said:
Furthermore Mr Wrinkly's post did not single out individual users nor did it attack users (ie saying a post was pointless or useless).
If we want the three thread system to work, it will be necessary from time to time for someone to say that a post is not appropriate for a particular thread.
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Yes, but we have to be more mindful in how we something is inappropriate for certain threads, or we can end up driving people away. Now yes, this seems like it's been an issue building up, so it may have come out wrong this time around for some, but moving forward, we have to be more courtliest in how we bring up that issue.

As for the Developments thread, I feel that when the Wild Encounters was brought up, it should be in the development thread. But when people start discussing their visits of this program it becomes tricky. The new General discussion thread that seems to be the third third we're looking at creating should be where people would post their experiences.

Or do as @Mr Wrinkly suggested and make a thread dedicated to Wild Encounters, so all discussion for that goes in there. Anything that's found as a development during the Wild Encounters can be separately brought up in the Developments thread.
 
I strongly, strongly agree with those who have suggested that we have a third "main" Toronto Zoo General Discussion thread.
There we can add our opinions of behind the scenes visits, our non-development visit updates, and any other random thoughts or questions which don't fit into "Births Deaths Transfers" or "Developments"... and it won't be as likely to fade away, leaving the situation to come back again in the future.

This wonderful site is called "Zoo Chat", not "Zoo Info" so it would be nice to have a thread where those that want, can just "chat" about the zoo, and leave the other threads to be information-based only.
That way nobody is offended, and nobody has to make the effort to scroll past what they aren't interested in - since it (currently anyway) obviously isn't working with just the two main threads, for multiple reasons.

Thank you all for the general input and specific responses.
 
Chlidonias said:
I thought the point of this was that people didn't think that the behind the scenes tours belonged in the "developments" thread?
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Sorry I should have been more specific. As others have pointed out, I feel that the announcement of the tours belongs in the developments thread whereas experiences with those tours I would have elsewhere.
 
I love the discussion that's going on here! I think it's pretty clear from the posts we need to shake things up and are in general agreement! I knew we were a great group who could figure things out. We just needed something to spark the discussion.

Thanks Chlidonias for starting the Wild Encounters thread. It's a good minor thread we will probably all use in the coming months as we go and experience it for the first time.

I'm still down for the 3rd main thread. I like m30t's title Toronto Zoo General Discussions. Fits nicely with what we seem to be in agreement what should go there.
 
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