Why not keep single elephant bulls/bachelor groups?

@Kifaru Bwana: Yeah, read about that recent idea of classification. However, as long nothing concrete has been established on this regard, I remain with the classification mentioned above. BTW: shouldn't this categorisation not also mention the extinct North African Elephant as a fourth species?

About "arcs epitomise the modern zoo tradition": I doubt that; due to many reasons, zoos make lousy arks...;)
 
Sun Wukong said:
@Kifaru Bwana: Yeah, read about that recent idea of classification. However, as long nothing concrete has been established on this regard, I remain with the classification mentioned above. BTW: shouldn't this categorisation not also mention the extinct North African Elephant as a fourth species?

About "arcs epitomise the modern zoo tradition": I doubt that; due to many reasons, zoos make lousy arks...;)
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One should indeed mention North African elephant AND it would be really interesting to see how this taxon fits in with the others (or not ....... whichever the case may be, after all North Africa is the craddle of modern day elephants and woolly mammoth to that). I really would love to see some more micro-satellite and DNA work done on the Loxodonta complex.

I welcome some more discussion on the issue of allocating considerable and the limited zoo spaces to elephants alone and the constraints on other species by building ever larger elephant exhibits (habitats seemingly being such an ambitious and pretentious word)????? :cool:
 
I agree with you on behalf of other species diminuishing/disappearing out of zoos due to increasing elephant exhibits-another reason why I'm not that much of an elephant fan...On that behalf, the single bull husbandry or more mixing of species with the elephants (if possible) might be worth a thought.
 
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I was a little confused on the whole 3 species of African elephant idea. I did look around and found the scientific papers that proposed the idea of the splitting. The 3 species paper was published in 2002 so it's been a few years. The paper talks about the two known species (L. africana and L cyclotis) as well as a 3rd species is West Africa west of the Dahomey Gap in Nigeria. The authors claim that there is about a 1.5 million year separation in that population from the other two. I took the liberty to e-mail one of the authors of that paper to see what the developments have been since the publishing of that paper. I will post here if I hear anything back.
 
Howcome Birmingham is interested in those bulls? As by the time the project and enclosure is ready for elephants, Callee and Ajani could both be ready to breed.

Its a great idea though of having a handfull of zoos which hold some young bulls with an older bull (Chico is perfect as hes bred before, experienced and now older and no longer breeding) They would also make great exhibits with the impressive older bulls and the younger animals 'playing around' no need to loads of calves for a good exhibit!!
 
Birmingham wants the challange and hopefully become the experts on bull elephant husbandry. Even though there is a huge shortage of bull elephants in the US, someone does need to make the resources available to house bachelors before it becomes a demographic problem.

As for Calee and Ajani, their sires are still both alive and breeding (in some fashion). In fact, Calee's sire, Jackson, is the most represented bull African in the US. So right now there really isnt too much of a need for Calee in particular to breed.
 
I hope that more zoos will focus on keeping bachelor herds of male elephants, but I am strongly against the idea to keep single bulls or pairs of 2 males in zoos which have not enough space for a breeding herd. The idea of zoos like Krefeld or Amsterdam to have a lone male in their tiny, barren yards with no space to move and nothing to do, literally bored to death, is disgusting.

Bull elephants ARE social creatures and need contact to other elephants, so the idea of keeping lone males is out. Keeping 2 together wold be better, but not good enough if you consider that wild male elephants socialize with many other males, not just one. While keeping bulls of the same age and strength together will probably not work, it should be possible to keep groups with one very large, fully mature and well-socialized male (like Alexander) with 2-3 younger males, preferably of different ages, too. That would provide a good social environment for the old and the younger bulls alike and the presence of the very large, dominant male would keep the young males "in line", prevent fights and guarantee stability for a long time (at least 5-10 years).

However, I think it is a big mistake to assume such bull groups could be housed in enclosures too small for a larger female group. You forget that elephants need exercise to stay healthy, and that they often get very sick if they don`t and get too fat - nearly all older elephants which have spent their life in small, barren, boring enclosures have problems with nail infections and arthritis. Not to mention the suffering through boredom. I find it difficult to give an exact number that should be the minimum outdoor space for elephants (male and female groups alike), but it is clear that zoos which don`t have the outdoor space for a female herd shouldn`t keep bulls, neither. Certainly not if you consider that young bulls will usually move MORE then adult females!! However, bull groups of 3-4 animals could be an option for zoos that have space, but not the money to build a barn large enough for a female breeding herd with bull barn and large female barn incl. indoor paddock ect. The perfect example for this is the Dierenrijk in Mierlo, Netherlands, which houses 3 young bulls in a simple, cheap 3-stall-barn. Such a house is not suitable for a breeding group with a big male and a growing group of females with calves, but it`s perfectly fine for 3 bulls.
 
A bit aside.

From what I remember, males after leaving their herd don't socialize much with other males, except fighting to establish dominance. However, bulls often meet female herds outside mating.

Big game hunters from the past decades noted, that old African bulls were stably accompanied by young adult bulls. These younger males attacked people hunting mature bulls for tusks and were nicknamed 'askari' or guards. The interpretation was that young males learned social life, while older males were protected. I never saw it again in modern elephant literature - not least because these elephant populations were long ago wiped out or thinned.
 
@Yassa: So is keeping bulls under conditions like the ones currently in Zuerich (or different other zoos) is not "disgusting"? As Jurek7 correctly remarked-the social contact with other males seems to be kept at a minimum after a certain age in the wild.
The single bull wouldn't have to stay there forever; a flexible exchange system could take place once in a while, giving him the opportuntity for social contact. And is it better to keep two or three females in a tiny zoo exhibit that can't afford a breeding herd (as females socialize much more), as it is commonplace? I don't think so. Most of the bull exhibits (even the newer ones) I have seen so far, were not offering room for a lot of exercise, either...An exhibit focused(sic) to serve a single bull (and with plenty of enrichment provided) might be a better choice.
 
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No, the elephant enclosure in Zurich is a disgrace, too. For both females and the bull, although the bull is the one who has to live in the worst condition. If a zoo can`t offer more space, they should not keep elephants at all - neither a breeding herd, not a small group of older, non-breeding females and no males. and I agree that most bull enclosures are too small. However, in many zoos the bull can use the female`s enclosures for a couple of hours on most days, which makes the situation a lot better.
 
I agree with you @Yassa that if a zoo can't offer adequate space and husbandry, it shouldn't keep any elephants at all. However, this is true for all other species!
Depending on the nature of the bull and the people in charge, it could be less than a couple of hours a day, thus not changing much if anything at all about the husbandry situation. A single elephant bull without any other elephants around, but kept in an adequate enclosure with plenty of enrichment might be better off than the bull pushed aside onto a tiny "Abstellgleis"...
 
Surely it shouldn't be too difficult for some of the Safari Parks and zoos/wildllife parks with large acreages that either keep Elephants already, or want to keep them in future, to agree to hold 'males only'- it seems in reality not too much more difficult than a breeding group, if such enclosures were carefully designed for protected contact? One adult bull plus two or three younger ones at each 'male venue' would seem the most sensible grouping and males could leave or stay depending if and when they were required for breeding elsewhere.

Single or pairs of bulls kept in small zoo enclosures are obviously very undesirable from both the exhibit and management angles.
 
Pertinax said:
Single or pairs of bulls kept in small zoo enclosures are obviously very undesirable from both the exhibit and management angles.
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No offence, but why? I can understand the "small" aspect, but the average size provided in most zoos for their two or three relict female elephants probably exceeds that of the majority of bull exhibits in use.
 
Sun Wukong said:
No offence, but why? I can understand the "small" aspect, but the average size provided in most zoos for their two or three relict female elephants probably exceeds that of the majority of bull exhibits in use.
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No offence taken. What I meant was a single or couple of bulls kept in the size of enclosure which bulls are still kept in in some of the smaller/urban zoos would be far from ideal. But yes, a zoo with a large enough elephant enclosure currently containing just females could be converted for handling bulls and given over to them instead, but they would have to place the females elsewhere first due to the space restrictions..

So it seems more likely to me that any incentives as far as keeping 'males only' would come from zoos/safari parks with large areas of ground to put at the elephants' disposal.
 
Yassa said:
Bull elephants ARE social creatures and need contact to other elephants, so the idea of keeping lone males is out.
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Thank-you Yassa l thought no one was going to say that.

I have been following this thread with interest. As elephants are not my animals. I do however strongly believe the idea that a bull elephant is to be housed alone is unacceptable. Yes they may live a nomadic solitary life in the wild, this solitary would not be permment.

Also no matter how idealistic people may be about providing enrichment. It is unlikely to be as stimulating as living in the wild!

So let’s hope a solution for the future is NOT to keep bull elephants on there own.
 
zooman said:
(..) the idea that a bull elephant is to be housed alone is unacceptable.
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Yet still commonplace in many zoos in the world, also in the breeding facilities. This can be temporarily, but given the temper of the animal, also for longer periods of time. And what is better: a bull housed in a tiny enclosure which is now and then allowed to the females, or a single bull in a larger one that offers him more room and possibilties to display his natural behaviour? For the latter option, one should not ignore what I already wrote before: that this doesn't have to mean "lifelong solitary confinement" for the bull, but rather a more or less temporary solution, with optional exchanges of bulls. This could look like this: inner city zoo keeps elephant bull "X" for a while in a as good as possible zoo exhibit with plenty of enrichment and, if possible, mixed with compatible other species. After a few years, bull "X" leaves for a herd with cows for breeding or for a bachelor herd. Bull "Y", formerly kept in a large zoo together with females, arrives. The inner city zoo has a new attraction and a new ambassador for the conservation of elephants in the wild, bull "X" gets company and bull "Y" can have some time on his own in a good enclosure. Thereby, the small zoo could afford displaying the crowd-pleasing elephant(s), the bulls would get at least once in the while the chance to live in a nice enclosure and/or have social contact with other elephants, and the zoo breeding groups would have a nice turn-over rate, a bit similar to that in the wild. The disadvantages would be the stress caused by the travelling and the lost time it takes the females to get accustomed to the new bull. And of course, the PGES-"Polish gay elephant syndrome"...;)

zooman said:
Also no matter how idealistic people may be about providing enrichment. It is unlikely to be as stimulating as living in the wild!
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According to that, no animal should/could be kept in captivity...:rolleyes: Certain cut backs are unavoidable when keeping wild animals in captivity; trying to provide the best possible compensation is nevertheless not "idealistic", but should rather be a must in modern animal husbandry practice. And this is not confined to elephants, btw.
 
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