ZooChat Cup Group C2: Beauval vs Denver

[Coelacanth18]

To continue with Denver: the zoo has a few other Neotropical species not in their Tropical Discovery building. While Bird World is closed, they should presumably still have these species:

American Flamingo
Chilean Flamingo
Andean Condor
Red-legged Seriema
Keel-billed Toucan
Humboldt Penguin

... as well as an additional mammal: Maned Wolf.

American Flamingos:

Andean Condor

Red-Legged Seriema/Keel-billed Toucan

Humboldt Penguin

 

[amur leopard]

To be fair to @amur leopard only the Harpy Eagles count towards this challenge. Saying that, it's a very important species that would influence some people's votes. That could be taken as misleading the voters...

I was just saying that all the enclosures had been built and therefore said what animals would be in those exhibits. Anyway, it doesn't matter too much, since these species nor their enclosures can be counted in everyone's votes because it is a future development of sorts.

 

[Coelacanth18]

Finally, the bulk of the Neotropical collection (mostly ectotherms) is held in the Tropical Discovery building, which those who have visited rate highly. The bulk are in the first part of the building, as described by @geomorph (who we have to thank for the species list).

"The first section is the largest, contained in a highly detailed environment of simulated rocky walls and temple masonry and planted with a wide variety of small live tropical plants, augmented by simulated plants in some exhibits. This section is brightly lit from the large glass pyramid-shaped ceiling overhead."

The relevant species list for Tropical Discovery:

Black Howler Monkey
Capybara
Vampire Bat
Jamaican Fruit Bat
Seba's Short-tailed Bat

Mexican Spiny-tailed Iguana
Eyelash Viper
Green Anaconda
Caiman Lizard
Spot-bellied Side-necked Turtle
Yellow-spotted Side-necked Turtle
Neotropical Rattlesnake
Brazilian Fer-de-Lance
Palm Viper
Hognose Viper
Neotropical Bird Snake
Common Cantil
Cuban False Chameleon
Cuban Knight Anole
Matamata Turtle
Reimann's Snake-necked Turtle
Mexican Beaded Lizard
Side-striped Palm-pitviper
Rhinoceros Iguana

Giant Waxy Tree Frog
Imitating Poison Dart Frog
Mexican Leaf Frog
Golden Poison Dart Frog
Yellow-banded Dart Frog
Amazon Milk Frog
Lake Titicaca Frog (Denver Zoo is the zoo responsible for establishing a captive breeding program for this species in North America and Europe)
Bumblebee Toad

Red-bellied Piranha
Black Spiny Catfish
Dow's Cichlid
Pacu
Peacock Bass
Red-tailed Catfish
Shovelnose Tiger Catfish
Spotline Peacock Cichlid
Suckermouth Catfish
Vermiculate River Stingray
Red-hooked Silver Dollar
Severum Cichlid
White Cichlid
White-spotted River Stingray
Tequila Splitfin

And some photos:

Capybara/Howler Monkey

Vampire Bat

Fruit Bats

Rhinoceros Iguana

Side-striped Palm Viper

Brazilian Fer-de-Lance

Golden PDF

Giant Waxy Tree Frog

Mexican Beaded Lizard

Green Anaconda & Amazon Fish (separate enclosures, by the looks of it)

Caiman Lizard/Spot-bellied Side-necked Turtle

Given that they've spoken to the size/quality issues with many of North America's reptile enclosures, I'd be interested in @Batto's take on these at a glance. Personally, a lot of the ectotherm habitats appear very cramped to me, especially for the snakes and some of the lizards. The overall theming of the building looks nice and it does arguably have a much better Neotropical ectotherm collection than Beauval does, however.

 

[amur leopard]

it does arguably have a much better Neotropical ectotherm collection than Beauval does, however.

Beauval has considerably more fish I believe, but the difference isn't vast in ectotherms overall at all. However, Beauval does clearly defeat it on mammals and birds.

 

[Batto]

Thank you for your courtesy. The species list and general settings look nice (I wish I could showcase vampire bats and giant waxy tree frogs, too). I agree that some of the enclosures, like the beaded lizard exhibit, look a bit small, and the waxy tree frog exhibit looks a bit barren.

 

[Coelacanth18]

Beauval has considerably more fish I believe, but the difference isn't vast in ectotherms overall at all. However, Beauval does clearly defeat it on mammals and birds.

Emphasis on the word "arguably." Denver has 6 more reptile species (19-13*) and twice as many amphibians (8-4), for a total herp advantage of 27-17*. I didn't realize Beauval had a large fish collection, but without knowing what relevant species they have I can't make a comparison. In any case, I wouldn't argue that the difference is vast, but I would call it significant. Exhibitry may be another matter entirely; again, I can't comment on any of Beauval's ectotherm enclosures because I haven't seen any. I do agree with you that Denver is trounced on birds any way you cut it, and I have little doubt mammals are the same.

*Splendid japalure is an Asian species, so doesn't count for Beauval.

 

[amur leopard]

Strange... I was looking on ZTL and only 15 species from South America were on there despite my recording of many more when I went. To prove that ZTL was definitely wrong, it didn't even mention Tequila fish. By my lists, I think Beauval had 26 South American species, including of course one of the most important populations of Tequila fish.

 

[amur leopard]

@ThylacineAlive could you explain why you voted in favour of Denver?

 

[ThylacineAlive]

@ThylacineAlive could you explain why you voted in favour of Denver?

Well when I skimmed the thread last night I saw that nobody had posted or even explained anything about Beauval apart from the species list, whereas @Coelacanth18 did an excellent job of showcasing Denver's (mostly) nice enclosures as well as their smaller but still nice collection which includes some rather rarer species for US collections. Additionally Denver established the entire captive breeding program for Lake Titicaca Water Frogs, which gives them serious points in my book. That said, having read everything properly this morning I may be switching my vote.

One point I'd like to discuss a bit more, though:

Sorry, but I do need to stay consistent with my earlier ruling re: Singapore and its under-construction Bird Park. Beauval is obviously somewhat further along but the decision at that time was that ‘future’ exhibits don’t count. Beauval’s rainforest dome has not opened to the public and as such is still a ‘future’ exhibit.

If the exhibit is already fully built on the zoo grounds and animals have already been put in enclosures, would this not make this simply a currently off-exhibit complex rather than a future one? Surely it cannot be a future development if it already fully exists. Not taking it into consideration would be the same as a zoo having built a brand new off-show holding complex but not allowing it to count because it just finished construction and not all of the planned species have arrived yet. The only difference being that Beauval eventually plans to open this area to the public whereas in the example the complex is non-public. If the exhibit is built and at least some of the animals are already present at the zoo then the exhibit should count, or at the very least the species already present should.

~Thylo

 

[amur leopard]

Some photos from Beauval

(South American aviary and holding for Maitres des Airs show)


(Part of a very large exhibit for rheas and capybaras with a large pool in the centre)


(Larger exhibit for coati with lots of climbing opportunities)


A good exhibit for Humboldt's penguins with a large land area


An all right jaguar exhibit with nice theming. It is larger irl.


The manatee exhibit. The two halves of the pool are shown in the above two photos. Quite deep pool and mixed with arapaima, pacu and some other Amazonian fish.


Monkey islands


Stingray pool in the manatee house.

More in the next one; thanks to @Maguari for all the photos

 

[amur leopard]

More photos of Beauval, again thanks to @Maguari


All areas of a massive flamingo exhibit with lots of viewpoints and a nice boardwalk around it.


And to round off a nicely planted piranha tank in the manatee house again

 

[ThylacineAlive]

Aaaand vote switched

I'm still giving Denver a point, though.

~Thylo

 

[Coelacanth18]

Aaaand vote switched

I'm still giving Denver a point, though.

~Thylo

And with that mystery solved, now @birdsandbats gets to be asked the same question as you

 

[Maguari]

All areas of a massive flamingo exhibit with lots of viewpoints and a nice boardwalk around it

Minor point of order: there are two flamingo enclosures, so the first photo there shows a separate exhibit to the other two.

 

[CGSwans]

I recognise I'm coming to this very late in the piece, though the margin is such that hopefully it hasn't made a difference. If it can be independently sourced that the animals *are* present then I can see the case for treating them in the same manner as off-display animals. The qualities of the soon-to-be exhibit itself, however, is out of scope.

 

[amur leopard]

Last thing: Beauval has a bird show called Maitres des Airs, in which almost all of its bird species are allowing to fly freely throughout a massive stadium and a neighbouring field. Seriemas are let loose in the crowd and ducks, parrots, storks and birds of prey are let off into the open air. Surely this is good for enrichment and quality of life?

 

[birdsandbats]

I had voted for Denver mainly because for their work with the Titicaca Frogs. Now, seeing the exhibits at Beauval, I would like to switch my vote. I didn't see this in time, so I can no longer switch my vote.