ZooChat Cup Match #24: Plzen (7) vs Basel

[CGSwans]

Oh Basel. I'm sorry. I'm so, so sorry. The category is small mammals. Let's get this over with.

ZooChat Cup

In summary, the rules of the game are as follows:
- You may choose whatever criteria you like to decide how to vote, as long as it only relates to the category above.
- You can use whatever resources you like to inform your vote, including Zoolex, Zootierliste, the ZooChat gallery, trip reviews, zoo maps, books and wherever else. You don't have to have visited both zoos to vote.
- Votes are public and can be changed at any time before the poll closes.
- The aim of the game is to provoke debate. Post explaining why you voted the way you did, and why others should join you.
- Voting closes in four days
- The one thing you can't do is vote based on anything other than the relevant category.

Tomorrow: Burgers vs Wroclaw. A blockbuster.

 

[CGSwans]

To be honest, standout small mammal *exhibits* at Plzen are fairly scant. There's plenty of them, but they're mostly on the basic side. But I simply can't vote against the work going on behind the scenes. Plzen's doing more for ex-situ small mammal conservation than anywhere else in the world. It's an easy choice.

 

[lintworm]

I am going to vote for Basel here (and yes I am fully aware of that, no alcohol in my blood).

Plzen's small mammal collection is huge and way too big for the size of the zoo. Just looking at enclosures like the ones for slender mongoose and Hausa genet, both are maybe 2 square meters in size and completely indoors. The mammal cubicles spread throughout the zoo are extremely small and bad. There are many more small mammals that hardly have any room like the Quoll, Kowari and many animals in the Pihillipine house (as their outdoor enclosures are used for somebody else). The binturong in the Rhino house are even worse of, living indoor only at abou 10 square meters. I don't know what Plzen is doing for small mammal conservation, because from the outside it just looks like bringing any mammal species (many wild-caught it seems) in they can get their hands on. Many of those species don't breed and leave the collection within a few years. There are some nice enclosures for small mammals, the ones for Rec panda, Bat-eared fox and some of the mongooses are nice. But most are either on the small side or just totally unacceptable

Basel on the other hand hardly has a stellar collection, but they do have a wonderful enclosure for Cape ground squirrel, Cape rock hyrax mixed with Sociable weaver, Lovebird and a Red-billed hornbill. Their mix of Dwarf mongoose with Nile crocodile looks daring, but works perfectly fine and gives some very interesting Mongoose behavior. Then there is a very nice mix of Muntjac and Small-clawed otter with Rhino and Visayan warty pig. Some fine enclosures for Elephant shrew, Meerkat with Porcupine, Grass mouse, Mole rat, Norwegian rat and Grey kangaroo. The only enclosure that is ugly is for nutria, but it is not that small and still fine for a small group of them.

Plzen has the numbers, Basel has the enclosures and husbandry to me. Normally Plzen should still win, but with so many atrocious enclosures dotted around the zoo and so few nice ones for small mammals, Basel gets my vote.

 

[agnmeln]

Tomorrow: Burgers vs Wroclaw. A blockbuster.

Can’t wait for this! The first time two zoos I have visited have come up against each other.

 

[CGSwans]

I am going to vote for Basel here (and yes I am fully aware of that, no alcohol in my blood).

Plzen's small mammal collection is huge and way too big for the size of the zoo. Just looking at enclosures like the ones for slender mongoose and Hausa genet, both are maybe 2 square meters in size and completely indoors. The mammal cubicles spread throughout the zoo are extremely small and bad. There are many more small mammals that hardly have any room like the Quoll, Kowari and many animals in the Pihillipine house (as their outdoor enclosures are used for somebody else). The binturong in the Rhino house are even worse of, living indoor only at abou 10 square meters. I don't know what Plzen is doing for small mammal conservation, because from the outside it just looks like bringing any mammal species (many wild-caught it seems) in they can get their hands on. Many of those species don't breed and leave the collection within a few years. There are some nice enclosures for small mammals, the ones for Rec panda, Bat-eared fox and some of the mongooses are nice. But most are either on the small side or just totally unacceptable

Basel on the other hand hardly has a stellar collection, but they do have a wonderful enclosure for Cape ground squirrel, Cape rock hyrax mixed with Sociable weaver, Lovebird and a Red-billed hornbill. Their mix of Dwarf mongoose with Nile crocodile looks daring, but works perfectly fine and gives some very interesting Mongoose behavior. Then there is a very nice mix of Muntjac and Small-clawed otter with Rhino and Visayan warty pig. Some fine enclosures for Elephant shrew, Meerkat with Porcupine, Grass mouse, Mole rat, Norwegian rat and Grey kangaroo. The only enclosure that is ugly is for nutria, but it is not that small and still fine for a small group of them.

Plzen has the numbers, Basel has the enclosures and husbandry to me. Normally Plzen should still win, but with so many atrocious enclosures dotted around the zoo and so few nice ones for small mammals, Basel gets my vote.

This sort of thing - a post that makes me re-think my starting assumptions - is *exactly* what I created this game for.

 

[lintworm]

This sort of thing - a post that makes me re-think my starting assumptions - is *exactly* what I created this game for.

I am wondering what you wrote with the conservation they do, I have not been behind the scenes there myself, but from the outside it doesn't look like genuine conservation. From all small mammals brought in the the past year as being unique to Europe, only Garnett's galago, de Bruijns Pademelon and Palawan porcupine seem to have established and spread to other European collections, which is to me a pitiful score looking at the huge number of species kept and imported...

 

[CGSwans]

I'm going only on what I've learned here on ZooChat, but my understanding is that an enormous amount of their work is with species that won't be established in other collections because there's no interest from those collections, and that a lot of their collaborations are with universities and other private groups instead.

 

[FunkyGibbon]

But how much of that is conservation work, as opposed to breeding for the sake of it? (Which there is nothing wrong with of course)

 

[CGSwans]

Well, I'm spouting received wisdom here. Happy to reassess based on further information.

 

[LaughingDove]

@lintworm's argument is compelling, and I have been to Plzen but not Basel, but I think Plzen still has to win, surely?

I totally get why you would look down on the way much of the small mammal collection at Plzen is based on stamp collecting, but they are breeding a lot of species, including many small rodents from lemmings to spiny mice, and Plzen must be single-handedly supporting the populations of dozens of species of small mammals in European zoos. A lot of Plzen's small mammal collection, especially rodents, is working with private keepers; and having the expertise of a zoo like Plzen working with the expertise that exists among private keepers is surely a good thing?

How many zoos in the world can claim to come close to displaying a decent sample of rodent and small mammal diversity? Although a lot of Plzen's stuff is off show, loads is on show as well. Don't forget the little small rodent enclosures in the 'bird island' exhibits around the zoo.

Yes, the quality of enclosures is a very important element to consider, but surely it's not the only one?

In my opinion, if you consider all factors other than quality of enclosures, Plzen is by far the best zoo for small mammals in the world. Voting against Plzen on this one almost feels like voting against Walsrode for birds because some of the enclosures are too small and the collection is too big with too much stamp collecting, and therefore letting a zoo with three aviaries that are all excellent beat Walsrode for birds. Sure, Plzen might loose on small mammals if you took an average score of the quality of each exhibit, but surely you've got to consider that Plzen probably has two orders of magnitude more than Basel in this category.

 

[lintworm]

I totally get why you would look down on the way much of the small mammal collection at Plzen is based on stamp collecting, but they are breeding a lot of species, including many small rodents from lemmings to spiny mice, and Plzen must be single-handedly supporting the populations of dozens of species of small mammals in European zoos. A lot of Plzen's small mammal collection, especially rodents, is working with private keepers; and having the expertise of a zoo like Plzen working with the expertise that exists among private keepers is surely a good thing?

I applaud it that zoos also work together with private keepers (and more should do that with small mammals, birds and ectotherms imo).

How many zoos in the world can claim to come close to displaying a decent sample of rodent and small mammal diversity? Although a lot of Plzen's stuff is off show, loads is on show as well. Don't forget the little small rodent enclosures in the 'bird island' exhibits around the zoo.

None can claim the same diversity as Plzen does.The small mammal cubicles in these bird islands exhibits are among the worst small-mammal exhibits around. They are often not bigger than a hamster cage and when I visited species like Garden dormouse were kept in multiple of these cubicles.

Yes, the quality of enclosures is a very important element to consider, but surely it's not the only one?

No it is not, it is also the attitude of just having to keep more and more species, even when there is no space. Plzen keeps about 6 mongoose species (+ 2 malagasy carnivores), even though they can only give a few of them proper enclosures. The Malagasy carnivores were behaving extremely stereotypical and no surprises there given the small space they had. The same goes for the slender mongoose and dwarf mongoose. Yellow- and Banded mongoose have nice enclosures, but having a zoo is also based on making choices. Only keeping what you can keep well and Plzen fails in that regard.

In my opinion, if you consider all factors other than quality of enclosures, Plzen is by far the best zoo for small mammals in the world. Voting against Plzen on this one almost feels like voting against Walsrode for birds because some of the enclosures are too small and the collection is too big with too much stamp collecting, and therefore letting a zoo with three aviaries that are all excellent beat Walsrode for birds. Sure, Plzen might loose on small mammals if you took an average score of the quality of each exhibit, but surely you've got to consider that Plzen probably has two orders of magnitude more than Basel in this category.

What Walsrode does is incomparable to Plzen, yes they have a huge bird collection, but it is mostly housed quite well. A more valid comparison would be this primate zoo in Japan, which keeps 50+ primate species, most in enclosures of similar quality as these small mammal cubicles, lemur exhibits and the enclosures for Slender mongoose.

This is also a personal opinion, but for me it is a lot more satisfactory to watch the Ground squirrels in Basel than touring the African house in Plzen. The squirrels have a wonderful enclosure and interesting interactions with the animals they share their home with. Whereas in the African house I am watching many rare species, but a slender mongoose pacing up and down, a jerboa making the same round again and again, a Porcupine pacing as well, but still enjoying the Garnett's galago. Zoos should imo work with their limitations and not stretch these boundaries. Yes Plzen breeds loads of species (calling it conservation work is stretching it), but if half of your species are ridiculously badly kept (and you are still bringing in new species, the slender mongoose enclosure is not an artifact from gone ages, nor are the others mentioned), you are doing something wrong.

 

[LaughingDove]

@lintworm you make excellent arguments and I can see why you and others have voted for Basel.

I'm leaving my vote with Plzen though, because if someone asked me whether I think Basel or Plzen is a better zoo for small mammals (I've deliberately left that ambiguous as to whether it is from the perspective of the small mammals or from the perspective of the visitor), I would still say Plzen. Despite its shortcomings.

I'm very curious to see which way the collective ZooChat vote will go with this one...

 

[lintworm]

@lintworm you make excellent arguments and I can see why you and others have voted for Basel.

I'm leaving my vote with Plzen though, because if someone asked me whether I think Basel or Plzen is a better zoo for small mammals (I've deliberately left that ambiguous as to whether it is from the perspective of the small mammals or from the perspective of the visitor), I would still say Plzen. Despite its shortcomings.

I'm very curious to see which way the collective ZooChat vote will go with this one...

Me too

I see why many zoochatters would vote for Plzen and against a zoo like Ouwehands or Munster, it would have gotten my vote, but Basel really has some excellent small mammal enclosures and species combinations.

 

[Dassie rat]

Both: cape ground squirrel; black-and-white ruffed lemur; common rock hyrax

Basel
Ansell’s mole-rat; coypu; Barbary striped grass mouse
Bolivian squirrel monkey; black-handed spider monkey; woolly monkey; red titi; golden lion tamarin; cotton-top tamarin; white-belted black-and-white and black-and-white ruffed lemurs
Meerkat; East African dwarf mongoose; Asian small-clawed otter
Round-eared elephant shrew

Plzen
African brush-tailed, shaggy-crested and Philippine* porcupines; Brazilian porcupine; lowland paca ; black-rumped agouti; east Bolivian highland yellow-toothed cavy: capybara; Desmarest’s hutia; gundi;
Merriam’s kangaroo rat
Acacia rat; Egyptian bushy-tailed gerbil*; bushy-tailed , Wagner’s, Baluchistan dwarf* and Duprasi* gerbil*; Egyptian Sundevall’s*, Mongolian, Syrian* and Persian (rossicus*) jirds; Nile rat; Alpine*, pygmy* and Eurasian field mice; catus deer mouse; hispid cotton rat; Campbell’s desert and golden hamsters; dusky Egyptian, Mount Kulal*, Tibesti, Asia Minor, African, Crete and Palestinian spiny mice; forest giant pouched rat*; roof rat; European harvest mouse; rock cavy; fat sand rat; mesic four-striped and Neumann’s grass rats; xeric four-striped and typical striped* grass mouse; Southern Luzon*, Northern Luzon and Panay bushy-tailed* cloud rats; South African pygmy mouse; Australian water rat; Grandider’s tufted-tailed rat; steppe lemming; greater and lesser Egyptian jerboas; four-toed* jerboa; giant jumping rat; Guenther’s and reed voles; European wood mouse; greater Balkan brush-tailed mouse
Pallas’s squirrel; cape ground squirrel; Siberian and southern flying squirrels; woodchuck; black-tailed prairie dog; fat, Kellen’s African and black-tailed garden dormice;
East African springhare*;
Belanger’s tree-shrew
Lac Alaotra bamboo lemur; red-bellied, common brown, white-fronted, black, collared, ring-tailed and red-fronted lemurs; red ruffed lemur; Goodman’s* and grey mouse lemurs; western fat-tailed dwarf lemur; Senegal (nominate*) and Garnett’s bushbabies; white-faced saki; Southern Bolivian night monkey; western pygmy, common and silvery marmosets; golden-headed lion, red-bellied, bearded emperor, red-mantled saddle-back* and golden-handed tamarins;
Narrow-toed feather-tailed glider; New Guinea ground cuscus*; brush-tail possum; common striped possum*; sugar glider; parma, Tasmanian red-necked and swamp wallabies; dusky pademelon; long-nosed potoroo*; western woyle; eastern quoll, kowari
New Guinea short-beaked echidna
Balabac chevotrain
Big hairy and southern three-banded armadillos
Seba’s short-tailed bat; pale spear-nosed bat*; Pallas’ long-tongued bat; southern long-nosed bat; Gambian epauletted bat; straw-coloured and Egyptian fruit bats; Rodriguez flying fox
Yellow-spotted and Cape rock hyraxes
Hausa genet; Philippine palm civet; Palawan binturong; dark cusimanse; common slender, yellow, banded and dwarf mongooses; eastern ring-tailed vontsira; northern narrow-striped boky; bobcat; Palawan leopard cat; East African bat-eared fox*; Cape fox*; Eurasian otter; South Brazilian coati
Four-toed hedgehog
Greater* and lesser hedgehog tenrecs; tailless tenrec*

I have been to both zoos. Plzen has a far larger and more varied collection of small mammals, but I didn't notice much of a problem in housing for them. I thought that some of the larger animals were in cramped enclosures, such as an ostrich that could barely spread out its wings as he moved outside and the Barbary lions that were kept in a Small Mammal House (!). Plzen has to get my vote for small mammals and I would think its collection would rival that of any other zoo in the world. On my last visit to Basel Zoo, I thought too much space was taken up by domestic animals, but I like the aquarium there and there are some interesting animals in the African House.

I suspect that cutting the number of small mammal species kept at Plzen Zoo would lead to some species not being kept at any zoo. I'd hope that some visitors are interested in some of the obscure mammals at Plzen and that some of the species can be bred, with individuals being sent to other zoos. Ultimately, I think that zoos should concentrate more on breeding small mammals in the zoo and larger mammals in situ, unless zoo-bred large mammals can repopulate wild habitats.

 

[pipaluk]

Can anyone say roughly how many of Plzen 's list are offshow? I don't think they should count for this competition , as people don't go to the zoo for animals they can't see! But even if the answer is half of them, I don't see how Basel can compete, several of their unimpressive list above are primates which are borderline whether they should count anyway!

 

[Dassie rat]

It would be difficult to run this site if it were only based on species that were onshow at the time; sometimes individuals get taken offshow for various reasons, such as illness. Other Zoochatters have said that keepers at Plzen Zoo are willing to take enthusiasts behind the scenes.

 

[LaughingDove]

Can anyone say roughly how many of Plzen 's list are offshow? I don't think they should count for this competition , as people don't go to the zoo for animals they can't see! But even if the answer is half of them, I don't see how Basel can compete, several of their unimpressive list above are primates which are borderline whether they should count anyway!

I would say that less than a fifth to a quarter of that list a permanently off show and I think that's a very conservative estimate (I think it's probably far fewer that are never brought on show at all). Many of the rodents have a few individuals on show and most of the breeding stock off show.

And of course the willingness of Plzen staff to take interested people behind the scenes to see the workings of a small mammal breeding centre and get visitors involved means even off show species can be considered to an extent imo. It's not just zoo enthusiasts who go behind the scenes either. When I was there, a small boy, around five years old possibly, was brought behind the scenes by a keeper to pat a possum and hold a tenrec.

 

[pipaluk]

It would be difficult to run this site if it were only based on species that were onshow at the time; sometimes individuals get taken offshow for various reasons, such as illness. Other Zoochatters have said that keepers at Plzen Zoo are willing to take enthusiasts behind the scenes.

Thanks , I just don't think it's a contest unless the vast majority aren't on show , but I suspect they are from what I've seen and read so it has to be Plzen convincingly for me!

 

[FunkyGibbon]

As a point of order, in my eyes off-show work seems totally legit as a factor to consider in this competition, although of course @pipaluk can discount it if they want to.
@lintworm has chosen a very courageous line on Plzen and the lack of outrage shows that there is a lot of latent sympathy for his position. However, I think the case may have been overstated. The terrariums in the bird islands for example, whilst being pathetic for the Siberian Flying Squirrel, are totally adequate for the mice that call most of them home. And the same is true for all the rodents in the Africa House, including the Jerboa which has rather more room to stretch its legs than in most places I've seen them. There is also the good bobcat enclosure up at the back of the zoo, and decent efforts for the hyraxes as well. I also didn't see much if any stereotyping on my own visit. That's not to say Lintworm isn't right, because I think he is. But I'm not at all convinced that he's right enough for this huge collection to be taken down by Basel, whose dwarf mongoose mix is a real selling point, but various ground squirrel mixes can be seen in other places.
Plzen will hold the line here I think but the seeds of its destruction have probably been sown....

 

[CGSwans]

As a point of order, in my eyes off-show work seems totally legit as a factor to consider in this competition, although of course @pipaluk can discount it if they want to.
@lintworm has chosen a very courageous line on Plzen and the lack of outrage shows that there is a lot of latent sympathy for his position. However, I think the case may have been overstated. The terrariums in the bird islands for example, whilst being pathetic for the Siberian Flying Squirrel, are totally adequate for the mice that call most of them home. And the same is true for all the rodents in the Africa House, including the Jerboa which has rather more room to stretch its legs than in most places I've seen them. There is also the good bobcat enclosure up at the back of the zoo, and decent efforts for the hyraxes as well. I also didn't see much if any stereotyping on my own visit. That's not to say Lintworm isn't right, because I think he is. But I'm not at all convinced that he's right enough for this huge collection to be taken down by Basel. The dwarf mongoose mix is a real selling point, but I think ground squirrel mixes can be seen in various places.
Plzen will hold the line here I think but the seeds of its destruction have probably been sown....

Agree with pretty much much all of this, especially the last sentence. I have a private list of the zoos I think are most likely to win (partially informed by my still privileged knowledge of the overall fixture), and had Plzen as my third favourite to win. Though it's seen off a challenge from Basel here, I think it's now in a fair bit of trouble, not least with a second round match-up with Beauval looming.