ZooChat Cup Match #43: Twycross vs Wuppertal

[CGSwans]

Both zoos got here with comfortable wins over modest opponents: Twycross 16-4 over Amersfoort on birds, and Wuppertal 21-1 over Dublin on all things cold-blooded.

This time? Primates. Oi vey, Twycross, you’re welcome.

Tomorrow: Plzen vs Beauval, in the match of the round.

 

[Fallax]

I think I'll just sit and relax, the winner is already chosen.

Seriously, I would like to see an argument for Wuppertal.

 

[TZDugong]

I don't think this one will be close, but like @PaleoMatt I would love to see an argument for Wuppertal.

Also, I'm very excited for tomorrows match.

 

[Maguari]

Twycross is one of that odd breed of zoos that known for one particular group but has actually generally not been all that great for them, except by volume. I think despite being 'their thing', they were actually very beatable on this by quite a few bigger zoos. All it really would have needed was a bit of design flair and enough of a line-up that quantity wasn't a complete washout and there could have been a really interesting debate. I think Wuppertal's primates are a little too thin on the ground though, and it doesn't really hold a design or conservation advantage either.

 

[Shorts]

This is weird, Wuppertal is a far better zoo but Twycross wins due to it's strength on the one and only category it can defeat Wuppertal on.

That said I don't think it's victory is as by as massive a margin as the voting suggests, Twycross' variety of primates has depleted significantly from it's peak and is a mixture of good (gibbons*), bad (orangs) and (mostly) average and Wuppertal does have a good range of great apes and a nice old-school monkey house with some nice rarer species in it.

*ignoring the recent Chimp development which looks good but I've not seen yet.

 

[SabineB]

I would like to make an argument for Wuppertal (although I did not vote for them) because there is an argument to be made.

Wuppertal agreed to house hybrid orang utans knowing and accepting, that they would never have the luxury to show orang utan offspring, this while having one of the best outdoor enclosure for orang utans in Germany. I commend that.

For the longest time, Wuppertal has housed a pair of stone old chimps, even giving them preferred access to the new outdoor enclosure which was build for chimps and bonobos to share.

Apparently the bonobo group is kept in good shape and breeding despite their sub par housing which should give a lot of credence to the husbandry executed by the great apes team.

Wuppertal has kept and never but once wavered to not commit and stick to the gorillas they took in and kept. They put massive energy and resources into figuring Vimoto's illness out and they prevailed, all the way well knowing, that this - like with the orang utans - will not currently ever give them hopes for gorilla offspring due to the females they keep.

Every zoo that keeps drills is my friend.

The primate house certainly is not up to contemporaneous standard, but they do keep all their animals with almost no stereotyped behavior and mostly in breeding groups.

It may not necessarily be the swaying argument, but here it was.

The reason why I did not vote for Wuppertal was the following: The zoo is covering such a large area, so much space to do and develop areas and enclosures for primates - space to let them be non typically german and not concrete built but wooden structures for a certain time being meeting their financial constraints - but does not. They even discounted their gibbon groups & - island. For reasons I still cannot fathom.

 

[pipaluk]

This is weird, Wuppertal is a far better zoo but Twycross wins due to it's strength on the one and only category it can defeat Wuppertal on.

That said I don't think it's victory is as by as massive a margin as the voting suggests, Twycross' variety of primates has depleted significantly from it's peak and is a mixture of good (gibbons*), bad (orangs) and (mostly) average and Wuppertal does have a good range of great apes and a nice old-school monkey house with some nice rarer species in it.

*ignoring the recent Chimp development which looks good but I've not seen yet.

I'm afraid like any cup competition, it's luck of the draw and in this competition , luck on category too. Most zoos have at least one real strength and at least one weakness. Bristol, Twycross, and Zurich have been lucky on category or opponent so far, Whipsnade, Stuttgart ,Tierpark Berlin and now Wuppertal very unlucky !

 

[FunkyGibbon]

Wuppertal's orangutan outdoors is not at all impressive in my opinion. It is a few poles of not great height with rope strung between them. The fact that the ground below is incredibly lush is, whilst obviously better than the alternative, not a huge point in its favour.
I didn't know about their hybrid nature and I do respect that.

 

[lintworm]

I'm afraid like any cup competition, it's luck of the draw and in this competition , luck on category too. Most zoos have at least one real strength and at least one weakness. Bristol, Twycross, and Zurich have been lucky on category or opponent so far, Whipsnade, Stuttgart ,Tierpark Berlin and now Wuppertal very unlucky !

I would say that in general the German and Dutch zoos have been most unlucky, especially the Germans wit Munich, Stuttgart, Tp Berlin and Nuremberg all out in the first round, but also the Dutch that drew Tp Berlin, Wroclaw, Prague and Leipzig (and Twycross) in round 1.. The Belgian zoos and some of the English ones have been more lucky, with possibly 3 Belgian zoos in the last 16 (and very possibly all three will drop out there once they get more serious competition).

 

[CGSwans]

I would say that in general the German and Dutch zoos have been most unlucky, especially the Germans wit Munich, Stuttgart, Tp Berlin and Nuremberg all out in the first round, but also the Dutch that drew Tp Berlin, Wroclaw, Prague and Leipzig (and Twycross) in round 1.. The Belgian zoos and some of the English ones have been more lucky, with possibly 3 Belgian zoos in the last 16 (and very possibly all three will drop out there once they get more serious competition).

There were three really significant German derbies in the first round (Magdeburg v Munich, Berlin Z v Stuttgart and most of all Cologne v Frankfurt). That certainly didn't help but they're also staring down the barrel of having as few as two, perhaps three contenders in the last 16. Quite surprising.

The Czech zoos had a great run in the first round but are 1/4 in the second, with Plzen facing a titanic battle against Beauval tonight.

For the Dutch, Burgers starts a warm favourite against Amneville, while Rotterdam is perhaps a slight underdog against Leipzig. If both get through though they're a very good chance of playing off in a quarter-final.

The French zoos have also done quite well, with 4/6 making the second round and at least three of them reasonable shows at making the last 16. Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised to see two (Doue and Beauval) in the quarter finals.

I agree the Belgians have had a comfortable run. And Twycross and possibly Paignton are (probably) just sight-seeing this far into the competition.

 

[Dassie rat]

Both: Red ruffed lemur; golden-headed lion tamarin; Colombian black spider monkey; bonobo; common chimpanzee (Twycross has western and eastern forms); western lowland gorilla

Twycross
Red-bellied, crowned and ring-tailed lemurs; Black and white ruffed lemur
Pygmy, silvery, common and Geoffroy’s marmosets; bearded emperor tamarin
Red titi
Black-and-gold howler; Colombian brown spider monkey
L’Hoest’s, black-footed crowned, De Brazza’s, Diana and Lowe’s guenons; western guereza; dusky langur; Francois’ leaf monkey; Javan lutung
Agile, northern white-cheeked and pileated gibbons; siamang
Bornean orang-utan;

Wuppertal
Lion-tailed macaque; drill
Lar gibbon
Orang-utan

This is an easy win for Twycross, although Wuppertal has a macaque and a drill.

Of course, if Walsrode were in the draw and the category were birds each time, it would have a very good chance of winning.

 

[Shorts]

Wuppertal
Lion-tailed macaque; drill
Lar gibbon
Orang-utan

I didn't realise they'd gone out of Golden-bellied Mangabey .

 

[lintworm]

I didn't realise they'd gone out of Golden-bellied Mangabey .

The last left a few years ago to Magdeburg, the Dusky langurs went to Erfurt, so the remaining species got more space in the monkey house....

 

[sooty mangabey]

As the lone voice (so far) in favour of Wuppertal, I have been thinking why it is that I feel it ranks ahead of Twycross in this category.

Whilst I have been doing that thinking, @SabineB has brilliantly articulated much of what I was thinking, above.

Although Wuppertal is a long way from perfect, and I am deeply suspicious of its future direction, I feel that it is a zoo which does things well, professionally, in a very German way (as described by Sabine). Its Monkey House is old-fashioned, certainly, but the way in which the collection has been managed - still diverse, but not at the expense of animal welfare, with a sensible downsizing in place - seems to be intelligent. The Ape House I like. The various outdoor enclosures which have been added over the years have hugely improved it, and, while certainly this is not cutting edge zoo design, there is a sense of things being done well.

Twycross’s thing is, obviously, primates. And I hate the way in which some seek to condemn Twycross, viciously, for everything they do. But, despite things certainly improving on the primate front, I still feel that Twycross has a long way to go: the Orang housing is pretty awful; the Gorilla exhibit is poor; the Chimps have been terrible (although maybe that is improving, as we debate). The Bonobos don’t lift the overall level of quality. The newish Gibbon House could be good, but still doesn’t seem to have bedded down. And while the monkey collection is still fairly large, there is a clear sense of its slipping away - with none of the exhibitry being anything special. Lemurs and callitrichids: yes, fine, but no more than that. So, overall, I’m not sure there’s anything at Twycross, primate-wise, that one would take for a fantasy zoo, so nothing to lift it to the level that suggests a thumping win should be theirs.