Melbourne Zoo Melbourne Zoo gorillas

BennettL

BennettL

Well-Known Member
Hi there,

I would like to know when Yuska dies what will happen?They will only have three gorillas father,Otana ,mother,Kimya and offspring Kanzi. Kimya won't breed until at least 2018 and Yuska shouldn't be dead yet....Yuska should have died in between (2021,2026).By then Kimya should at least have had three offspring,four at the most.I wouldn't import Kipenzi from mogo because then a similar bloodline will be represented throughout the troop. Kipenzi should move to Taronga zoo.Since Johari doesn't breed with Kibali she could have a second chance down here with Otana. I would also like to know why the bachelor groups?Some of these have a important bloodline such as yakini/ Yuska-Rigo and Ganyeka/ G-Anne - Motoba.They should put them in a breeding program.

BennettL
 
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Perhaps move this to the Great Apes in Australia thread as it's concerning more than just the Melbourne group. :)
Hopefully Yuska will be a very long lived gorilla, but I do think at some point more females will need to be imported from Europe as almost all 'breeders' will be closely related.
 
BennettL said:
Since Johari doesn't breed with Kibali she could have a second chance down here with Otana. I would also like to know why the bachelor groups?Some of these have a important bloodline such as yakini/ Yuska-Rigo and Ganyeka/ G-Anne - Motoba.They should put them in a breeding program.
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Since Johari doesn't breed with one silverback she's unlikely she will breed with Melbourne's either- its related to her handrearing. A better chance that she might breed with one of the younger males at TP if given time- a better option than moving her to another adult male.

There are currently no breeding programmes that can take these surplus males in the Australasian region. Further afield it would depend on their genetic importance- Ganyeki (g.Anne's son) is the most important one but there has to be an opening and then there are all the costs of moving him etc.
 
Johari (jumatuno) and Ganyeka (ghubari) are very genetically valuable .Taronga's troop on the other hand have a well represented bloodline in Europe .As most of Melbourne's are wild born so they don't have a well represented bloodline in captivity.Yuska and Rigo's bloodline lies on Mapema (Mzuri's son), who already has five surviving offspring.If Yakini doesn't breed it looks like Yuska's bloodline will end in Australia. Betsy has many grandchildren in Europe so her bloodline has been well represented as well.Julia and G-Anne's offspring are the only genetically valuable gorillas in Australia,so to not breed them will the end both there captive bloodline.AI should be used to inpregnant Johari ,since she is the only captive representative of her mother and if she doesn't successfully raise her baby keepers can hand-raise.Thats the reason why mother raising is better than hand raising .Most of the hand raised ones are unsuccessful with births.Ganyeka should be sent to UK to breed there though Ganyeka only has only about one or two related gorilla's in captivity.

BennettL
 
BennettL said:
.AI should be used to inpregnant Johari ,since she is the only captive representative of her mother and if she doesn't successfully raise her baby keepers can hand-raise..

Ganyeka should be sent to UK to breed there though Ganyeka only has only about one or two related gorilla's in captivity.
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They could try AI on Johari but the chances of success are slim... her best chance of conception is with a young male she will allow to mate her. Agreed she is genetically important and needs offspring. Same for Ganyeki- more so than Yakini as his mother Yuska does at least have a successful line of descendants in Europe via Mapema, whereas Ganyeki's mother G.Anne,herself the only offspring of wildcaught parents, has no other relatives at all- though unfortunately his father Motaba's side is very well represented. But there are no places for him currently in the UK- anywhere in the world would do really as long as he went to a breeding group.
 
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Hi Pertinax,

Could they form a breeding group at Werribee (possibly Mogo but will need updated exhibit) consisting of Ganyeka,Johari and Kipenzi (Mogo zoo) ?That would be the best option if they want to keep both bloodlines in Australia.

BennettL
 
BennettL said:
Hi Pertinax,

Could they form a breeding group at Werribee (possibly Mogo but will need updated exhibit) consisting of Ganyeka,Johari and Kipenzi (Mogo zoo) ?That would be the best option if they want to keep both bloodlines in Australia.

BennettL
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But Ganyeki and Johari are half-siblings, and what would they do with the other two males? I suppose they could start a second group and so at least allow Ganyeki the chance to breed that way. Johari I think is better left at Taronga.
 
Thanks Pertinax,

Forgot about that and yes it would be good to start a breeding third group at Werribee because they have the space and the facilities to work with them.Motoba would be in his twilight years and Yakini could go into bachelor at Orana.

BennettL
 
It may be of interest that there are plans to house gorillas at Adelaide Zoo, in the area presently taken up by the lion, siamang and small carnivore exhibits. Whether the zoo will house a breeding or bachelor group will depend on the needs of the region, but certainly there would be the potential for Ghubari (Ganyeka) to be joined by females imported from Europe and form the basis of a new group. That would leave Werribee's group at only two (and Motaba is not particularly old), which may not be appropriate, depending on the individuals in question. I would be very surprised if Yadumu (Yakini) was moved to Orana.
 
Ganyeka could have a fresh start their with new females.That would be a possibility but at the moment Werribee will be keeping Ganyeka.

BennettL
 
I agree keeping Johari at Taronga Zoo is the best move as the only other options for her to be in a male/female group are Mogo (Kibabu) and Melbourne (Otana). Kibabu is very well represented globally and given Otana’s aggression (killing a female and ejecting a female from his group), I don’t think he’d tolerate Johari’s lack of social skills that Kibale is relatively accepting of. Like Petinax mentioned, she may well breed with one of the young males are they mature.

Hopefully Yuska has many years ahead of her, even though she is now post reproductive. Melbourne Zoo will need to look at importing at least one more female ahead of her demise though as females will not generally breed if kept in pairs, so just having Otana and Kimya isn’t really an option. I’d recommend transferring Kipenzi as her family is already well represented in Europe and Asia so she is not likely to be desired for export to those regions, and she will likely make an easy transition into the group which contains her sister, Kimya. Sending to Kipenzi to Taronga (which already has three adult females) would crowd the exhibit and limit the breeding potential for the females already there.

Exciting news that Adelaide may be holding gorillas on a permanent basis!
 
Zoofan15 said:
I don’t think he’d tolerate Johari’s lack of social skills that Kibale is relatively accepting of.

as females will not generally breed if kept in pairs, so just having Otana and Kimya isn’t really an option.
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I think Otana might well accept/tolerate Johari to the same extent as Kibale does, but her lack of social skills would almost certainly mean no mating with him either, while at worst it might become a bad situation, so it would be a pointless, even risky move.

Otana and Kimya are already compatable breeders- as such they would no doubt continue breeding even in a pair situation- however a 1.1. ratio puts stress on the female as she has no adult support during any aggressive encounters with the male- so its far from ideal. EEP Studbook, which I think Australian gorillas still come under(?) seems to recommend a 1.3 male/female as the minimum ratio in breeding groups.
 
Pertinax said:
I think Otana might well accept/tolerate Johari to the same extent as Kibale does, but her lack of social skills would almost certainly mean no mating with him either, while at worst it might become a bad situation, so it would be a pointless, even risky move.

Otana and Kimya are already compatable breeders- as such they would no doubt continue breeding even in a pair situation- however a 1.1. ratio puts stress on the female as she has no adult support during any aggressive encounters with the male- so its far from ideal. EEP Studbook, which I think Australian gorillas still come under(?) seems to recommend a 1.3 male/female as the minimum ratio in breeding groups.
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Wasn't the 1.1 ratio the reason Kibale and Kimya never bred when she was at Taronga Zoo?

A 1.3 ratio seems more ideal as the silverback usually has a favourite female and so a 1.2 situation could be an unpleasent situation for the less favoured female.

I doubt Yuska is currently the happiest she's ever been. In the book 'Hardwired Humans,' the author describes how when with Rigo, Yuska pretty much ran the show. She assumed dominance over all the femlaes and even Rigo in some situations, using the support of the other females to steamroll over his authority. This changed when Mbeli arrived, as she was mother raised and showed the correct submissive behaivour to the silverback. I get the impression Yuska very much knew the correct behaivour, just that she could get away with it in that current group (Rigo plus handraised females).
While Yuska does not challenge Otana in anyway, I understand she very much plays second fiddle to the younger, reproductive Kimya.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Wasn't the 1.1 ratio the reason Kibale and Kimya never bred when she was at Taronga Zoo?

A 1.3 ratio seems more ideal as the silverback usually has a favourite female and so a 1.2 situation could be an unpleasent situation for the less favoured female.

I doubt Yuska is currently the happiest she's ever been. In the book 'Hardwired Humans,' the author describes how when with Rigo, Yuska pretty much ran the show. She assumed dominance over all the femlaes and even Rigo in some situations, using the support of the other females to steamroll over his authority. This changed when Mbeli arrived, as she was mother raised and showed the correct submissive behaivour to the silverback. I get the impression Yuska very much knew the correct behaivour, just that she could get away with it in that current group (Rigo plus handraised females).
While Yuska does not challenge Otana in anyway, I understand she very much plays second fiddle to the younger, reproductive Kimya.
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Yes.Being in a 1.1 ratio is difficult for the female as she has no help in raising the offspring and it will become very stressful in bad times.

Being in a 1.3 situation means that the two not favourite females could help and protect each other.At taronga one of the not favourite is best friends with the silverbacks favourite female and the other female (Frala) is experienced and shows clear dominance so they are all equal.In melbourne's situation they have the silverback his favourite female and her offspring.The other one (Yuska) doesn't fit into this well as she has a mother raised female to compete with and a mother raised silverback.Most of the times I visit her she is either in the dens alone or one display away from the troop.Though sometimes she shows pleasure in mum and baby and will interact.This known to be dangerous grew to a horrid outcome.Julia's death.Who died from injures made by silverback after trying to interact and not keeping her space from mum and baby.

BennettL
 
Frala is an interesting case. When Kibabu was silverback at Taronga, she was housed with mother/daughter combination Mouila and Kriba so even though she was in a 1.3 ratio, Frala was the outsider. On top of this, Mouila was Kibabu's favourite, followed by Kriba. Frala wad described as having a short temper and abrupt nature with the other gorillas, which was attributed to her exclusion from the main social group (Mouila, Kriba and offspring). Frala was given the most (and earliest) oppotunities to breed at Taronga which helped maintain at least some standing in the group. Frala's sometimes ferocious personality and the presence of two adolsecent sons by the time this group came to a close meant that her status within the group actually contradicted her social ranking. The cause of most conflicts in this group was Frala's adolsecent son, Fataki. This would draw Frala into the conflict and she would often be supported by the offspring of Mouila and Kriba against Kibabu. There are a couple of vidoes of YouTube illustrating this.

Frala has a much better situation in Kibale's troop. Mbeli (like her mother) is very much the favourite of the silverback, but Johari has no offspring and her previous close friendship with Mbeli has soured. This means Frala holds a very steady second ranking position in the hierachy, whcih is unlikely to change.
 
I used to think Frala was very much Kibabu's favourite as she had offspring in 1998,1999,2003 and 2007 that I know of.Moulia had two offspring in 2003 and 2008.Kriba had two offspring in 2005 and 2011.Kriba and Frala were actually half sisters and shared the same father,Bongo.

BennettL
 
Taronga zoo in 1996 imported 9 gorillas from Apenheul primate park.They were Kibabu,Mouila,Kriba,Frala,Kijivu (Kriba's son),Shabani (Mouila's son),Safari (Kriba's daughter),Anguka (Frala's son),Shinda (Frala's daughter) and Haoko (Mouila's son).All of the offspring were exported by 2001.

BennettL
 
Zoofan15 said:
While Yuska does not challenge Otana in anyway, I understand she very much plays second fiddle to the younger, reproductive Kimya.
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Unlike Rigo, whom she grew up with from a very young age, Yuska is probably far less sure of Otana, who as a mother-raised male is also probably more forceful than Rigo in his dealings with the females.

One reason for the'competition' often evident among females in zoo groups is because they are not directly related- matrilineal lines have strong ties and females belonging to them normally support each other. A group(as would be the case in the wild) comprising just closely related females is a lot more close-knit than one where the females aren't related and have been brought together later in life, which describes many zoo groups.
 
BennettL said:
Taronga zoo in 1996 imported 9 gorillas from Apenheul primate park.They were Kibabu,Mouila,Kriba,Frala,Kijivu (Kriba's son),Shabani (Mouila's son),Safari (Kriba's daughter),Anguka (Frala's son),Shinda (Frala's daughter) and Haoko (Mouila's son).All of the offspring were exported by 2001.

BennettL
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Just a couple of slight corrections... :D

Taronga Zoo imported 10 gorillas from Apenheul Primate Park. They were:

Kibabu (1977)

Mouila (1972) and sons Haoko (1993) and Shabani (1996)

Kriba (1979) and daughters Kijivu (1993) and Safiri (1996)

Frala (1981) and daughters Shinda (1991) and Anguka (1994)

Shinda and Kijivu were exported in 2001, Anguka and Safiri in 2006 and Haoko and Shabani in 2007.
 
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